Bubble king 400 ext. VS Deltec AP 1004 - Page 3

hahnmeister · 02/21/2007, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mavgi
it's a better idea to run 2 skimmer and i have that in my mind before but i don't know if he have big sump 2 put 2 BM250 there because of that i didn't said that.

2 skimmer will perform better then any other big one and especially 2 BM250 . i know in europe ppl run 1 BM250 in this size of tank and even bigger , 2100liter (555 us gallon) and i think the BM250 can handle this size to .
the BM300 will kick any other big skimmer and will be perfect for the big tank , i hope we will see it soon.......

Ive heard rumors of a recirculating BM skimmer as well.... any word on that? FWIW, I was thinking of DIYing a recirculating BM style skimmer. Ive been playing with DIY versions of their vortex bubble plate and it looks promising... similar to the Twister M skimmer that Aquaconnect sells in a way. Anyways, I was thinking 30" tall, 12" diameter, and an 8-10" bubble neck going up the center like an ATI/Fauna-Marin... powered by a needlewheel dart or a pair of pumps that would give me about 2500lph of air at 24" of water depth.

Jar*Head · 02/21/2007, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Am I seeing that right? H&S did a custom bubbleplate skimmer for you? Wow... I wouldnt have seen that coming... looks like H&S will built anything.

I have a side question since all the brains are assembled... Im looking to use a spare Eheim 1262 I have laying around as a needlewheel/meshwheel skimmer. Does anyone know what might be the best place to get a mesh/needlewheel for this skimmer? I know that the outputs on 1260-1262s get ported out slightly as well... that might come next if I can find a good impeller... but where?

H&S did not built that skimmer body. My friend Loc01 did it for me. he also mod his 1262 with messwheel and it work very well.

mavgi · 02/21/2007, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tanya72806
I have read alot of horror stories abour BM. Good luck with that idea

you not leave far for me and if i am not wrong you have BK skimmer tell me if you want to do side by side test and honest one no need to read horror story you can see it in your eye

and we will make some other measure to , like that we can give a better info and to see real result it will be very interesting and helpfull decision for members that want to know the real different between those 2 skimmer .

Fliger · 02/21/2007, 12:25 PM

Based on your tank size I'd say either get the BK400 - I think you can get the RD2250 with it, especially being in Europe. H&S also has skimmers with more than 3x1260, just check with your salesperson. But since Eheims in Europe only draw 600-650 LPH, I would agree you need 4x1260 (if you go H&S/Deltec). Here in the US, comparable Deltecs cost way more than H&S - but I think it might be different over there.

I had the BK300 Ext and it was amazing. I have seen Reefer714's and he never shows pix of the 5 gallon collection bucket full of skimmer poop. :-) Its disgusting! I also ran a A300 3x1260 and its a beast!

But if you were in the US, I'd say get the H&S 3x1260 since its fewer pumps and 2,700 LPH. There maybe the BK400 with a 2250 is a better choice.

Good luck, post pix.

Jar*Head · 02/21/2007, 12:35 PM

Dav, the new BK400 comes with RD2000. My 400ext come with RD2000. but i am working on some cash for the new RD DC pump. The adjustable one

.

Dav, you wanna trade? BK400 for A-450

McCrary · 02/21/2007, 12:40 PM

Deltecs are cheaper than H&S in Europe (which makes you wonder why they're charging us so much over here). But the build is better for the H&S, so its worth it. I really don't think that BM is going to compare to BK. You are talking about two different arenas of price and quality. I think that BM makes a good product for the price and is an alternative to some of the more expensive skimmers. But if you have the cash, I can't see you going wrong with BK (or H&S for that matter).

TandN · 02/21/2007, 01:17 PM

Mavgi I would love to do that some day but only if theres a replacement fir my tank while doing so

PLEASE do not take my posts as flames im sorry to anyone that might think so I think turbo sums it up perfectly. Mav talk to rich about his BM. I have had just about all the great skimmers and im am happuest with my BK and again like i posted I thkn everyone REALLY needs to remember no one tank is the same. My 120g w/ the same eqiuptment as your 120 will be diffrent in so many ways. My bacteria could breakdown more waste then yours does theres so many diffrent reasons for one to have diffrent skimate then the next. I had my bk off line for a week and when i put it back on it skimmed like CRAZY now that it caught back up to where it left off the skimate is alot less and yes I have a BIG bioload. I also have a Dialyseas on my system which helps alot also keeping everything at 0 and my PO4 at .01 (hanna) again JMHO

Jar*Head · 02/21/2007, 01:42 PM

To me BK, H&S, Deltec, EuroReef, BM or even my DIY skimmer are good skimmer as long as you are happy with the performance and that is matter.

mavgi · 02/21/2007, 01:42 PM

tanya72806

i hope you have space in your sump , if yes we do the side by side test on your tank .
when i will have replace one i will send you pm and then i can bring my BM250 and start the test.

hahnmeister :

sorry i can't said nothing yet but i can tell that it's will be a big surprise ..... and again the important part for us the hobbyist it's will be great and this because : price , performance and better quality to

hahnmeister · 02/21/2007, 01:46 PM

Oh, agree 100%. BKs are like a fine tuned porche compared to the BMs... not alot of refinement, so they make up for it with raw output like a chevy camaro. There gets to be a point though where you gotta ask yourself... how much more am I gaining by paying the premium for that fine tuned item? The BM's do a decent job skimming... no doubt about that. As good as a BK? Well... technically I think the BM250 is more efficient than the equivalent BK from the wattage/air throughput ratio... but this is why I compare BMs to camaros.

Back when bubble plates by Spazz and Bill started showing up and people 'jumped in' to the latest DIY fad, there was some hot debate on bubble plate design. Many felt that simply having a cumulative hole diameter that equaled 2 or 3x the outlet diameter of the mixing pump was 'close enough'. I argued that there must be more to it... alot more. Bean got upset and told me I was applying science where it wasnt needed... overcomplicating, etc... but after making a few bubble plates to play with... I was noticing things...

Multiple smaller holes functioned much better than fewer larger ones. Look at a BK's plate and then a BM and tell me what you see.

There are pressure, throughput (air and water) variables, etc. Not knowing how many holes to drill (or a cumulative hole area ideal) can mean you end up with too little pressure behind the plate... and you end up with larger bubbles being passed here & there. Having too little holes and you end up with too much upward momentum behind the bubbles, and that bubble plate might not be giving you the advantage that it could because its pushing the bubbles to the surface faster.

After a while, Klaus shared some of this with me because he saw my posts on bubble plates. Turns out I was on to something. There are equasions for determining ideal bubble plate size and number of holes... based on the pressure, airflow, and waterflow of the mixing pump. Simply multiplying the area of the pump outlet or guessing can leave you with less than perfect results... sometimes causing more harm than just running w/o a bubble plate. What Im trying to get at is that there are some very specific variables that have to match up here.

So this is what I find odd...
ATI had the eheim 1262 threadwheel until it came to the US. Then, due to 'problems' with the eheim (seems odd because eheims shouldnt have a problem running this...) ATI had to find a new pump. Elke MÃ¼ller (owner) ended up with the SICCE clone of the new Tunze needlewheel as the new pump. The thing I dont get now is...

The lph of air throughput on a BM has been increased alot by the new pumps. On a BM250 the air throughput has pretty much doubled. So one would reason that a new design for the bubble plate... perhaps a new diameter or something... would be in order, no?

Nope. Larger pumps and more power. Sounds like the Tim Allen method of skimmer engineering... which doesnt always turn out working too well.

Luckily the BMs seem to be benefiting from the 'more power' idea... this time.

FWIW, Klaus told me that ATI stole the design in a way from F-M. The designer, who contacted Klaus in the process for approval and such on the F-M designs, was not involved with the ATIs. I forget the exact details... they are all in German in my PM box...lol. But the basic idea was that the ATI design isnt as refined or calculated. There comes a point where simply blowing as many bubbles as you can into a column of water can be counterproductive... and you end up skimming out more water than you need to.

hahnmeister · 02/21/2007, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by REEFER714
H&S did not built that skimmer body. My friend Loc01 did it for me. he also mod his 1262 with messwheel and it work very well.

Hey... wanna make/get another meshwheel for an eheim 1262? Ive been looking into using that thing for something new since I took it offline a few months ago.

Jar*Head · 02/21/2007, 02:00 PM

Why don't you send your pump my way and i will do the mod for you. Will send it back with the Light rail cool?

Did you just compare my BK to a pinto?

Jar*Head · 02/21/2007, 02:10 PM

Honestly, i was going to sell my BK and use the money to buy 3-4 BM 250 and line it up inside of my 80g sump, i know for sure it will out performed my BK400 anyday

hahnmeister · 02/21/2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by REEFER714
Why don't you send your pump my way and i will do the mod for you. Will send it back with the Light rail cool?

Did you just compare my BK to a pinto?

Lol. Do you have pics of how its made or anything? If anything, I can just order the impeller and have it sent to you for modding.

Lol... BK=pinto... no Seaclowns are pintos... or more like Chevy Vegas. The BK is the more refined Porche one of the two, the BM is the Dodge Viper (better analogy than a camaro because it represents little refinement and control but rather excessive horsepower to overcome lagging performance in other categories).

Jar*Head · 02/21/2007, 02:21 PM

I'll get you some pic. We just finish modified the 1260 messwheel into ER 8-3. If you ask Stryker_587 he is the owner of that skimmer.

mavgi · 02/21/2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by REEFER714
I'll get you some pic. We just finish modified the 1260 messwheel into ER 8-3. If you ask Stryker_587 he is the owner of that skimmer.

we make the mod LOC01 ?

did someone measure after the mod the pump watt ?

did you know how much air the pump pull after the mod ?

i like to see it to .

Jar*Head · 02/21/2007, 02:42 PM

Yes, Loc01 did the mod. I provide the equipment. He doesn't have the meter to measure killowat. But he did test the air intake. 1260 on meshwheel getting around 15-16 LPM

mavgi · 02/21/2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by REEFER714
Yes, Loc01 did the mod. I provide the equipment. He doesn't have the meter to measure killowat. But he did test the air intake. 1260 on meshwheel getting around 15-16 LPM

the pump pull 15-16 LPM it's not big different but as i know the foam should be better , tell to LOC to measure the watt very important . send to him my best regards

hahnmeister

in 2 month we will see the external BM .

Oliver online in the reefgeek forum ......... you can see again the new post and understand why i am say all the time that this company always perform better and quick then other one

Jar*Head · 02/21/2007, 02:54 PM

mavgi, I will past the word to Loc.

hahnmeister · 02/21/2007, 03:34 PM

15-16lpm? Nice. 32some scfh. That would be a good match for my new tank.

REEFER714, got my Gualala from FedEx today... wow... how did you ever give this thing up? Its perfect? Just what I needed. Pretty compact too.

TandN · 02/21/2007, 03:42 PM

no i dont have room in my sump 4 both

but BUT i can replace my bk for it for a couple of months so that theres enough time to tweak it right and let it run. my waterlevel in my sump is 9" which is recommended for my bk whats urs @?

mavgi · 02/21/2007, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tanya72806
no i dont have room in my sump 4 both but BUT i can replace my bk for it for a couple of months so that theres enough time to tweak it right and let it run. my waterlevel in my sump is 9" which is recommended for my bk whats urs @?

the water level is not the problem (we can handle this) the main things is that i want both to skim together and then we can see what skimmer perform better this way we get real compare between those 2 skimmer.

Jar*Head · 02/21/2007, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hahnmeister
15-16lpm? Nice. 32some scfh. That would be a good match for my new tank.

REEFER714, got my Gualala from FedEx today... wow... how did you ever give this thing up? Its perfect? Just what I needed. Pretty compact too.

I'm into something else totally different than the Gualala

. Your is going back and forth, mine going in the circle. I like the Gualala too but it doesn't work well for my tank. I may go back to it later after i upgrade to 6x3x2.

TandN · 02/21/2007, 04:41 PM

I dont think that would work properly since one would get more nutrients before the other one would. having one run then the other using the same regimine I believe would give a better proceptive JMHO

Jar*Head · 02/21/2007, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tanya72806
I dont think that would work properly since one would get more nutrients before the other one would. having one run then the other using the same regimine I believe would give a better proceptive JMHO

I totally agree with Tanya. I used to run 2 ER 6-2+ in my sump and one will pull more than the other. even though i have them side by side.

The best way to do is have 1 run for a week and take picture of the skimmate also with the amount of skimmate being collected for the week. then run the other for a week also take picture. Post it up on here and we as reefer will do the judgement.

Or find a tank big enough to fit two skimmer inside, add some old water from the tank along with skimmate, have it mix for 24 then place the two skimmer inside and turn it on at the same time.

Honestly, what are you guy trying to prove? I don't care if someone say their ER or seaclone better than my BK. It is all personal reference.

02/21/2007, 12:25 PM	#54
Fliger Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 8,642	Based on your tank size I'd say either get the BK400 - I think you can get the RD2250 with it, especially being in Europe. H&S also has skimmers with more than 3x1260, just check with your salesperson. But since Eheims in Europe only draw 600-650 LPH, I would agree you need 4x1260 (if you go H&S/Deltec). Here in the US, comparable Deltecs cost way more than H&S - but I think it might be different over there. I had the BK300 Ext and it was amazing. I have seen Reefer714's and he never shows pix of the 5 gallon collection bucket full of skimmer poop. :-) Its disgusting! I also ran a A300 3x1260 and its a beast! But if you were in the US, I'd say get the H&S 3x1260 since its fewer pumps and 2,700 LPH. There maybe the BK400 with a 2250 is a better choice. Good luck, post pix. __________________ Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional. Closed minds should come with closed mouths. When life hands you lemons, add vodka! Current Tank Info: Current: 210G Elos System, 2x400W + 6x54W Photon w/Aquaconnects, H&S skimmer, Deltec FR509/ROWAphos+Elos Carbon, 6101's and 6201's, Ocean GEOtronic 900 Chiller/Heater, Biotopus II Controller w/SMS. Elos System 70.

02/21/2007, 12:35 PM	#55
Jar*Head Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 8,630	Dav, the new BK400 comes with RD2000. My 400ext come with RD2000. but i am working on some cash for the new RD DC pump. The adjustable one . Dav, you wanna trade? BK400 for A-450 __________________ Steve Tankless. Current Tank Info: 480g peninsula

02/21/2007, 12:40 PM	#56
McCrary Can't Stop Time Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,079	Deltecs are cheaper than H&S in Europe (which makes you wonder why they're charging us so much over here). But the build is better for the H&S, so its worth it. I really don't think that BM is going to compare to BK. You are talking about two different arenas of price and quality. I think that BM makes a good product for the price and is an alternative to some of the more expensive skimmers. But if you have the cash, I can't see you going wrong with BK (or H&S for that matter). __________________ Matt Patience is the best remedy for every trouble. Titus Maccius Plautus (254 BC - 184 BC), Rudens

02/21/2007, 01:42 PM	#58
Jar*Head Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 8,630	To me BK, H&S, Deltec, EuroReef, BM or even my DIY skimmer are good skimmer as long as you are happy with the performance and that is matter. __________________ Steve Tankless. Current Tank Info: 480g peninsula

02/21/2007, 02:00 PM	#62
Jar*Head Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 8,630	Why don't you send your pump my way and i will do the mod for you. Will send it back with the Light rail cool? Did you just compare my BK to a pinto? __________________ Steve Tankless. Current Tank Info: 480g peninsula

02/21/2007, 01:17 PM	#57
TandN Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 2,009	Mavgi I would love to do that some day but only if theres a replacement fir my tank while doing so PLEASE do not take my posts as flames im sorry to anyone that might think so I think turbo sums it up perfectly. Mav talk to rich about his BM. I have had just about all the great skimmers and im am happuest with my BK and again like i posted I thkn everyone REALLY needs to remember no one tank is the same. My 120g w/ the same eqiuptment as your 120 will be diffrent in so many ways. My bacteria could breakdown more waste then yours does theres so many diffrent reasons for one to have diffrent skimate then the next. I had my bk off line for a week and when i put it back on it skimmed like CRAZY now that it caught back up to where it left off the skimate is alot less and yes I have a BIG bioload. I also have a Dialyseas on my system which helps alot also keeping everything at 0 and my PO4 at .01 (hanna) again JMHO

02/21/2007, 01:42 PM	#59
mavgi Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: queens n.y Posts: 2,209	tanya72806 i hope you have space in your sump , if yes we do the side by side test on your tank . when i will have replace one i will send you pm and then i can bring my BM250 and start the test. hahnmeister : sorry i can't said nothing yet but i can tell that it's will be a big surprise ..... and again the important part for us the hobbyist it's will be great and this because : price , performance and better quality to

02/21/2007, 01:46 PM	#60
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	Oh, agree 100%. BKs are like a fine tuned porche compared to the BMs... not alot of refinement, so they make up for it with raw output like a chevy camaro. There gets to be a point though where you gotta ask yourself... how much more am I gaining by paying the premium for that fine tuned item? The BM's do a decent job skimming... no doubt about that. As good as a BK? Well... technically I think the BM250 is more efficient than the equivalent BK from the wattage/air throughput ratio... but this is why I compare BMs to camaros. Back when bubble plates by Spazz and Bill started showing up and people 'jumped in' to the latest DIY fad, there was some hot debate on bubble plate design. Many felt that simply having a cumulative hole diameter that equaled 2 or 3x the outlet diameter of the mixing pump was 'close enough'. I argued that there must be more to it... alot more. Bean got upset and told me I was applying science where it wasnt needed... overcomplicating, etc... but after making a few bubble plates to play with... I was noticing things... Multiple smaller holes functioned much better than fewer larger ones. Look at a BK's plate and then a BM and tell me what you see. There are pressure, throughput (air and water) variables, etc. Not knowing how many holes to drill (or a cumulative hole area ideal) can mean you end up with too little pressure behind the plate... and you end up with larger bubbles being passed here & there. Having too little holes and you end up with too much upward momentum behind the bubbles, and that bubble plate might not be giving you the advantage that it could because its pushing the bubbles to the surface faster. After a while, Klaus shared some of this with me because he saw my posts on bubble plates. Turns out I was on to something. There are equasions for determining ideal bubble plate size and number of holes... based on the pressure, airflow, and waterflow of the mixing pump. Simply multiplying the area of the pump outlet or guessing can leave you with less than perfect results... sometimes causing more harm than just running w/o a bubble plate. What Im trying to get at is that there are some very specific variables that have to match up here. So this is what I find odd... ATI had the eheim 1262 threadwheel until it came to the US. Then, due to 'problems' with the eheim (seems odd because eheims shouldnt have a problem running this...) ATI had to find a new pump. Elke MÃ¼ller (owner) ended up with the SICCE clone of the new Tunze needlewheel as the new pump. The thing I dont get now is... The lph of air throughput on a BM has been increased alot by the new pumps. On a BM250 the air throughput has pretty much doubled. So one would reason that a new design for the bubble plate... perhaps a new diameter or something... would be in order, no? Nope. Larger pumps and more power. Sounds like the Tim Allen method of skimmer engineering... which doesnt always turn out working too well. Luckily the BMs seem to be benefiting from the 'more power' idea... this time. FWIW, Klaus told me that ATI stole the design in a way from F-M. The designer, who contacted Klaus in the process for approval and such on the F-M designs, was not involved with the ATIs. I forget the exact details... they are all in German in my PM box...lol. But the basic idea was that the ATI design isnt as refined or calculated. There comes a point where simply blowing as many bubbles as you can into a column of water can be counterproductive... and you end up skimming out more water than you need to.

02/21/2007, 02:10 PM	#63
Jar*Head Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 8,630	Honestly, i was going to sell my BK and use the money to buy 3-4 BM 250 and line it up inside of my 80g sump, i know for sure it will out performed my BK400 anyday __________________ Steve Tankless. Current Tank Info: 480g peninsula

02/21/2007, 02:21 PM	#65
Jar*Head Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 8,630	I'll get you some pic. We just finish modified the 1260 messwheel into ER 8-3. If you ask Stryker_587 he is the owner of that skimmer. __________________ Steve Tankless. Current Tank Info: 480g peninsula

02/21/2007, 02:42 PM	#67
Jar*Head Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 8,630	Yes, Loc01 did the mod. I provide the equipment. He doesn't have the meter to measure killowat. But he did test the air intake. 1260 on meshwheel getting around 15-16 LPM __________________ Steve Tankless. Current Tank Info: 480g peninsula

02/21/2007, 02:54 PM	#69
Jar*Head Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 8,630	mavgi, I will past the word to Loc. __________________ Steve Tankless. Current Tank Info: 480g peninsula

02/21/2007, 03:34 PM	#70
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	15-16lpm? Nice. 32some scfh. That would be a good match for my new tank. REEFER714, got my Gualala from FedEx today... wow... how did you ever give this thing up? Its perfect? Just what I needed. Pretty compact too.

02/21/2007, 03:42 PM	#71
TandN Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 2,009	no i dont have room in my sump 4 both but BUT i can replace my bk for it for a couple of months so that theres enough time to tweak it right and let it run. my waterlevel in my sump is 9" which is recommended for my bk whats urs @?

02/21/2007, 04:41 PM	#74
TandN Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: NYC Posts: 2,009	I dont think that would work properly since one would get more nutrients before the other one would. having one run then the other using the same regimine I believe would give a better proceptive JMHO