Ick Eating fish?

[Pike614]

Are there any species of marine fish that eat the ick parasite? Cleaner wrasses? If anyone knows of specific species the info would be appreciated!
Thanks!

[Mariner]

The neon goby is a better bet than the wrasse, but is susceptible to ich itself. Cleaner shrimp are probably your best bet...Lysmata amboinensis
HTH,
Mariner

[DEdwards]

best bet is to just treat the problem

[drillsar]

ICh to My knowledge is present in all tanks but it dont affect a fish unless the fish is stressed.

Theres many Reasons what will stress a fish:

#1 reason usually you get Affected Fish Water Quality(Temp,SG, etc)

Agressive Fish attacking it

Had it already when you bought it from your LFS.

I got Ich once when I realized my Tank Temps was low

NOTE: ICH BReeds in Low Temps, Cant Tolerate High Temps but your fish maybe cant either.

[reefshadow]

If you have ich present in your system you really only have 2 options- either remove the fish to hypo or copper treatment, leaving the display fallow for 6-8 weeks, or decide to just live with it at the risk of perhaps losing your fish, though this is in no way guaranteed IMO.

Cleaner shrimp are a good option for maintainence, as are good parameters, reduced stress, excellent feeding.

The problem with not treating ich IME is that though the fish you have may live with it just fine and not have any problems, any new additions you make to the display may not have the same partial immunity and due to the stress of being collected, shipped and introduced to a new environment may get a massive infestation of it and die. Some fish are just not able to make it past the settling in period.

I don't believe ich is present in all aquariums, but I think it's far more prevalent than most people think due to improper quarantine methods.

Higher temps will speed up the life cycle of the parasite but I would not use this as a treatment or cure, personally.

FWIW, I live with it in my display, I don't remember the last time I lost a fish to it, but will occasionally see a few cysts when something is going on with parameters or I make a big change.

As to the question of the cleaner wrasses, they have a very difficult time adapting to captivity and almost invariably die. They don't make the transition to feeding on regular food, and usually starve.

If you don't want to remove the fish and treat, cleaner shrimp as stated will help, but they also have a tendency to get lazy and eat the fish food rather than groom the fish [at least mine do].

Good luck whatever you decide

[rkelman]

You can't cure an ick problem with a cleaner wrasse / shrimp or any other animal. They simply cannot clean every spot off every fish and even if they could some of the cysts are too deep for them to get. You have to treat it with either Hypo or copper treatment in a QT tank and leave the tank fallow for 4-6 weeks. Anything else is just a bandaid. Ich is not present in all tanks. Its present in peoples tanks who don't QT properly.

[Pike614]

OKay, thanks for the feedback. I have a NEW 75 reef that I am upgrading from my nano tank w/ reef and corals so copper would be out of the question IF I did get ick. I don't have any ick on the fish at the moment, lucky I guess since I have never QT'd fish. I am not sure how to do that properly without stressing the fish even more.....Just place the fish in an empty 20 gallon (or 10 gallon) and treat w/copper regardless to kill any possible ick? I am sure there's a thread about this already but thought I'd start here because I'd like to get a few more expensive fish and didn't want to risk it.
Thanks!

[greenbean36191]

There is no evidence that any cleaner species even feed on ich at all. Since the parasite is under the skin it's unlikely that they can even reach the parasite to feed on it.

[Shagsbeard]

Fish seem to like being cleaned. But it's not going to remove ich from your system.

[rkelman]

You usually put plastic pipe elbows ect in the tank to give the fish somewhere to hide. An empty QT tank would not be good. The fish would be stressed all the time. No don't use copper on everything. Its very hard to get it at the proper levels and maintain them. Many use hypo on everything..

[rreddick]

Yes,
go with hypo, first the sick fish or new addition do a freshwater dip, then a formilan dip then place into the Q tank. You start with near normal salinity and over the course of 10 days or so lower the salinty via water changes with ph adjusted RO/DI water.

There is some great info on Hypo treatment here:http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/hyp...ck_Therapy.htm

Ron

[Mariner]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
There is no evidence that any cleaner species even feed on ich at all. Since the parasite is under the skin it's unlikely that they can even reach the parasite to feed on it.

Mike, you know I've got the highest respect for your knowledge, but I don't understand this. I've seen cleaner shriimp pick off ich spots, as I'm sure you have. Are you saying that some life stage of the ich isn't in the spots, or that the shrimp doesn't eat them? Also, what's your take on why very many aquarium gurus (Fenner, Pro, etc.) recommend cleaner shrimp and/or neon gobies to help control ich.
Mariner

[rreddick]

It helps control, does not eliminate it. The Ich Parasite goes through three stages, one is the white spots you see on the fish. Then the it drops off and forms a cyst in the sand in incubates, anywhere from 7 days to 21 days or longer. The cycts bursts, and send out hundreds of new parasites looking for a host. Finds host, burrows in, may lie dormant for years, or may begin the cycle again and you will see the white spot about 3 to 4 days.

The Cleaners on clean one, if the fish goes to it, and two, will on help get some of the parasites, does nothing for the cycts, or the free swimmers.
Ron

[rreddick]

FYI

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

Ron

[Mariner]

rreddick,
I've shared that article by ATJ with many reefers in the past, but lost the link. Thanks for posting it!

to all,
As far as I'm concerned, the article in the link posted by rreddick is the gospel on ich. Everyone should read it...it clears up a number of myth-conceptions. Stephen Pro also had a couple of articles in the online Reefkeeping Mag that are worth reading, IMHO.
My initial answer to Pike was not intended to advise him/her on how to rid ich from a tank, or prevent it; that's not what was asked. I well understand that a cleaner wrasse, shrimp or goby is not going to solve an ich problem in a tank, but like others that have posted, I have thought that the shrimp might help control an outbreak. What Mike (greenbean) posted is news to me, that's why the question. He's a Marine bio/mariculture student and up on a lot of recent research.
Mariner

[greenbean36191]

The white spots aren't the parasite itself. The parasite is at the bottom of the outer layer of the fish's skin. The white spots are the damaged skin covering the parasite. To be able to get at the parasite itself the cleaner would have to dig into the fish's skin. Despite a lot of searching I still can't find any record in the primary literature of cleaners under natural conditions either observed feeding on the parasite or with the parasites in their guts.

The only report I've ever been able to find of any cleaner eating the parasite was in a situation where fish were intentionally infected and then cleaner wrasses were allowed to clean them. The researcher found that the fish only ate the parasites as they settled on the fish but before they burrowed in. However, the cleaners ate so few of the parasites that the presence of the cleaner made no difference in the final abundance of parasites infecting the fish. Still, you have to consider that the infective stage that the fish fed on would normally only be active in the wee hours of the morning and only accessible for about 5 minutes. Not many cleaners are naturally active at that time.

As far as Fenner and Calfo recommending cleaners to help with ich, I think it's a misguided recommendation. I suspect it was based more on common beliefs in the hobby than any sort of hard evidence. I agree with them on a lot of things, but there are other things they recommend that I strongly disagree with. Even experts can be wrong. A good example is in the article linked above where they cite Sprung and Delbeek stating that that lower salinity kills ich.

[Mariner]

Greenbean,
That's pretty interesting. Would it be reasonable to hypothesize that a cleaner removing the damaged skin might help the fish fight off secondary infection, etc. and thus enable the fish to be more likely to survive the ich? Or does the research indicate no difference between the mortality of infected fish with a cleaner and those without?
Mariner

[swtntrl]

Nice link.

I am in the process of determining if ich is present in my tank. And I have been reading a lot on the subject recently and looking to set up a QT for new additions.

If ich is present and I take the fish out of my display for 4-6 weeks. Can ich survive with snails, crabs, shrimp, clams ect? Or just fish

Any suggestions for the ideal QT set-up and how to do it? Equipment ect.

[Mariner]

If ich is present and I take the fish out of my display for 4-6 weeks. Can ich survive with snails, crabs, shrimp, clams ect? Or just fish

Ich will not host on inverts, just fish. It's fine to leave them in the display. The ich will die out.

The size of the QT depends on the fish you're treating.
For small fish like clowns and grammas, I use a 10g with a heater, powerfilter and some PVC for fish caves. If you can use some filter media from your display in the powerfilter, it will provide the biofiltration.
HTH,
Mariner

[rkelman]

If i'm correct the lower salinity disrupts the repoductive cycle of the ich right? That's the way I understand it.

[greenbean36191]

Would it be reasonable to hypothesize that a cleaner removing the damaged skin might help the fish fight off secondary infection, etc. and thus enable the fish to be more likely to survive the ich? Or does the research indicate no difference between the mortality of infected fish with a cleaner and those without?

I don't know that anyone has compared the secondary infection rate in cleaned and uncleaned fish. Unfortunately though, I don't have access to the best paper on secondary infections due to ich. What I gather from reading reviews is that the primary site for bacterial infections is in the gills since that's where the most severe damage from the parasite occurs. There isn't really any sort of open wound to get infected when the parsite is just on the body. The spots are more like sloughing skin and the actually hole left by the parasite burrowing in closes up within a few hours.