skimmer and sump, choose a pump!!!

davidryder · 02/26/2007, 12:51 PM

ok, before i start pumping water through my sump and skimmer, i have been thinking of a slight alternative to my current setup (90 gallon)

i have an MRC MR-1 paired with a gen-x pcx 40 (1190gph) and a 15g sump paired with a mag 9.5 (950 gph).

the mag pumps water from my sump to three jets i ran by PVC to the top my my aquarium, like so:

there is another jet coming up from the overflow that came with the tank

you can see in the image below the two pumps. the mag is inside the sump, and the gen-x is just outside the sump.

now i think it would be fairly easy to swith the two pumps. pair the sump with the gen-x and the skimmer with the mag. i'm only considering this because i'm not sure how powerful the three jets are going to be when ran by the mag 9.5

i guess my question is: is the benefit of switching the pumps, if any, are great enough to go ahead and switch them. AND more importantly, will the mag be enough for the MRC MR-1?

a better shot of the sump if it helps:

3_high_low · 02/26/2007, 02:06 PM

Nice rig, David. I think switching the pumps is a reasonable consideration since there respective outputs seem suitible, but it looks like you have it all plumbed, so why not give it a try the way it is? Good luck.

davidryder · 02/26/2007, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 3_high_low
Nice rig, David. I think switching the pumps is a reasonable consideration since there respective outputs seem suitible, but it looks like you have it all plumbed, so why not give it a try the way it is? Good luck.

thanks!

i did go ahead and start it up. the flow from the nozzles is great, and the skimmer looks good, too. but i do have a problem with bubbles, as seen in the picture below:

ALL of those bubbles are coming from my overflow. any ideas?

3_high_low · 02/26/2007, 03:27 PM

Well, you can reduce the return rate ( I see you have ball valves in the return lines.). This would allow some of the bubbles to dissipate before reaching the return pump. Also, you could install a down facing elbow on your sump pick-up pipe so that it sucks water from the very bottom of the sump.

Another thing to consider, maybe you have already accounted for this, but what happens when you kill the pump? Is there enough volume in the sump to contain the water that back-flows? Do you have check valves in the return lines? You'd hate to have a flood in the event of a power failure.

davidryder · 02/26/2007, 04:27 PM

i think the skimmer is creating the additional flow through the baffles, not giving the bubbles time to dissipate. i believe, however, that there is a modification i can do to the standpipe that helps with the air intake, but i haven't been able to find anything on it...

chaseracing · 02/26/2007, 04:45 PM

There are two things I am seeing. You have actually spotted both yourself.

I ball valve will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the amount of bubbles in the sump from the return line. You only need to close the ball valve just slightly to provide some backpressure. The return line will then be a solid stream of water that most of the bubbles would have burst before even getting to the sump. I found the ball valve worked best if it was at the end of the line and submerged under water.

The ball valve will also slow down the flow going through your sump effectively letting the microbubbles from your skimmer to burst in the bubble trap.

I had the same problem. After spending $9 on 3 ball valves, my microbubble problems were solved.

HTH,

-=E=-

I will try and snap off a pic of mine for you.

chaseracing · 02/26/2007, 05:03 PM

I just thought of something else. I also have a corner of my sump that is somewhat boxed off that my return line runs into. This gives it somewhat of a skimming effect, and the water escapes from the channel out of the bottom. You seem handy enough. Adding this can also help.

Marc Levenson has a great pic on his site. Follow this link to a custom sump he built. On the 5th picture down, there is a great pic of the corner trap. Mine has slots on the bottom. (not pcitured)

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/s...p_model_j.html

-=E=-

davidryder · 02/26/2007, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chaseracing
There are two things I am seeing. You have actually spotted both yourself.

I ball valve will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the amount of bubbles in the sump from the return line. You only need to close the ball valve just slightly to provide some backpressure. The return line will then be a solid stream of water that most of the bubbles would have burst before even getting to the sump. I found the ball valve worked best if it was at the end of the line and submerged under water.

The ball valve will also slow down the flow going through your sump effectively letting the microbubbles from your skimmer to burst in the bubble trap.

I had the same problem. After spending $9 on 3 ball valves, my microbubble problems were solved.

HTH,

-=E=-

I will try and snap off a pic of mine for you.

thanks for the quick reply! i have a ball valve on the drain side, but it's not submerged. i played around with the drain and i put up another baffle and i have stopped most of the bubbles when the skimmer is off. i think moving the ball valve underwater as you suggested will completely stop the bubbles coming in that way.

but as soon as i start up the skimmer, it becomes bubble world again. i'm afraid that running two pumps of that size through there is going to be too much.

i think as opposed to trying to control the bubbles with the setup i have, i should probably try to come up with a different design.

here's a thought: i could use the gen-x for a closed loop and use the mag 9.5 for the skimmer. and maybe use a mag 3 or 5 to circulate the sump through the overflow??

here is a diagram... feel free to make any suggestions!

melev · 02/27/2007, 12:46 AM

A couple of things come to mind:

Brand new plumbing will generate tons of bubbles for up to 14 days. It takes time for them to slime over, but once they do the bubbles are virtually stopped.

The ball valve on the drain line concerns me merely because if a snail or fish goes down it could very well be a cork that stops the line. The display tank will no longer drain and shortly thereafter overflow until the sump runs out of water.

A bubble tower filled with LR rubble will help immensely. Here's a brief video of the bubble tower I had in my 29g's (Model A) sump:
http://www.melevsreef.com/video/trapped_bubbles.wmv (1.2 megs)

You may need a tower for the skimmer's output perhaps. I would have it dump out on the left end of the sump, so that the water has to travel around the skimmer and to the bubble trap.

davidryder · 02/27/2007, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
A couple of things come to mind:

Brand new plumbing will generate tons of bubbles for up to 14 days. It takes time for them to slime over, but once they do the bubbles are virtually stopped.

The ball valve on the drain line concerns me merely because if a snail or fish goes down it could very well be a cork that stops the line. The display tank will no longer drain and shortly thereafter overflow until the sump runs out of water.

A bubble tower filled with LR rubble will help immensely. Here's a brief video of the bubble tower I had in my 29g's (Model A) sump:
http://www.melevsreef.com/video/trapped_bubbles.wmv (1.2 megs)

You may need a tower for the skimmer's output perhaps. I would have it dump out on the left end of the sump, so that the water has to travel around the skimmer and to the bubble trap.

thanks so much!!!

the PVC "break-in" period makes me feel a lot better. so here is a new layout of the sump:

i'm going to drill a hole and seal the drain line from the skimmer.

my question is: should the bubble tower be below or above the water line? i'm just concerned about back pressure on the skimmer.

melev · 02/27/2007, 12:10 PM

Most skimmers don't do well with back pressure. Several, if not all, have to have their output at the water's surface rather than below it. Otherwise the water level within the skimmer can't be controlled.

The solution to this is to put the skimmer on a stand to lift it up in the sump to the proper (mfg's recommended) depth. Some have limited vertical height in their stand and don't have the room to put a stand under the skimmer and still have it fit, let alone have access to clean the collection cup. For those, they have to run their sump with a shallow water level so their skimmer can operate correctly.

The bubble tower is for the drain line from the display tank. The skimmer's output should be fine, just pointing it the direction you have it in the drawing.

davidryder · 02/27/2007, 02:53 PM

ok i have created a bubble tower. the tower itself is 8" high, and the bubble trap baffles are 9" high, so this way the level in the sump will be 9" and with the 8" bubble tower, the skimmer won't have to drain uphill. as per Andy at My Reef Creations, a 9" water level will be fine for the skimmer.

Here are some photos of my progress. I have yet to glue the tower to the glass.

^^^ this is a full view of the sump. the baffle on the left is 8" and the lower baffles on the right are 9". the other section of the bubble tower will be where my drain from the overflow goes. both chambers will be full of live rock. i'm actually thinking the divider is unnecessary, any thoughts on that?

^^^ this is the sump with the skimmer installed

^^^the only thing i need in the above picture is some sort of 'O' ring to help keep the water from coming out of that hole.

melev · 02/27/2007, 02:56 PM

The divider will help the baffle not bend in th center due to water pressure.

How does the water exit? At the bottom? I can't tell.

davidryder · 02/27/2007, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
The divider will help the baffle not bend in th center due to water pressure.

How does the water exit? At the bottom? I can't tell.

it exits from the top though i haven't glued it so i can have it exit from the bottom. which do you think would be more effective?

davidryder · 02/27/2007, 10:30 PM

one thing i have learned, is it is much much easier to plan the job thoroughly, make detailed drawings, and do it with the right tools the first time!!! a lot of trips to lowes could have been saved if i just used the right materials and tools the first time!

anyway, i siliconed the edges of the baffles and put a small bead of JB Weld on the bottom corner of the divider in the middle of the bubble tower. i'll pick up some live rock rubble tomorrow and run some water through it tomorrow night. if i still have bubble problems, i'm going to have to downgrade the skimmer :-(

melev · 02/27/2007, 10:39 PM

I would have had the water drain out the bottom, as the rock blocks the path of the bubbles and tends to trap many. Sounds like my reply came too late though.

Having the baffle higher than the water level will contain the saltspray too.

davidryder · 02/27/2007, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
I would have had the water drain out the bottom, as the rock blocks the path of the bubbles and tends to trap many. Sounds like my reply came too late though.

Having the baffle higher than the water level will contain the saltspray too.

i can always put another baffle in front of the bubble tower. i actually already cut one and drilled it for the purpose you mentioned above

melev · 02/28/2007, 12:12 AM

That will work. Raise it up about 1.5".

davidryder · 02/28/2007, 12:45 AM

ok... here we go:

^^^ the skimmer drain passes through both of those bulkheads if you can't tell

^^^ as you can see it's a VERY tight fit in there, but it does fit! that book was the perfect height too...

i scaled the images down a bit, i didn't realize how big they were on smaller screens, sorry if they were overwhelming to anyone

davidryder · 02/28/2007, 10:30 PM

i still have about the same bubble problem. i think i'm going to try a skimmer of the same caliber but requires a much smaller pump! i am looking at the AquaC EV-120... any thoughts on this skimmer? Or the Tunze 9005...

melev · 02/28/2007, 10:38 PM

Are you running this with freshwater or saltwater? Have you given it 14 days to break in?

davidryder · 02/28/2007, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Are you running this with freshwater or saltwater? Have you given it 14 days to break in?

saltwater... running it turns my tank into a cloudy haze... i can definitely give it 2 weeks, i'm just really frustrated at this point. do you think it would initially pump out so many bubbles?

davidryder · 02/28/2007, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Are you running this with freshwater or saltwater? Have you given it 14 days to break in?

those pictures of the bubbles were taken the first day i ran water through the tank. so the longest the skimmer has run in the tank is about 1 hour. lol... too short of time?

melev · 02/28/2007, 10:51 PM

No, but then I can't see exactly what all is going on. A video would be good.

Does the return section fill with bubbles as well, or is it mainly bubbles on the intake / skimmer section? What happens if you don't run the skimmer?

skwirl · 02/28/2007, 10:52 PM

if you had the mr2, you could do the u tube mod... from what i understand, it makes quite a bit of difference. i just got through plumbing mine, and doing the mod myself (mr2). i also changed a few other things. hopefully i will be bubble free when i fill it up. do a search on steves u tube mod for the mr2

02/26/2007, 12:51 PM	#1
davidryder Claris or Elliot? Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Nightopia Posts: 2,750	skimmer and sump, choose a pump!!! ok, before i start pumping water through my sump and skimmer, i have been thinking of a slight alternative to my current setup (90 gallon) i have an MRC MR-1 paired with a gen-x pcx 40 (1190gph) and a 15g sump paired with a mag 9.5 (950 gph). the mag pumps water from my sump to three jets i ran by PVC to the top my my aquarium, like so: there is another jet coming up from the overflow that came with the tank you can see in the image below the two pumps. the mag is inside the sump, and the gen-x is just outside the sump. now i think it would be fairly easy to swith the two pumps. pair the sump with the gen-x and the skimmer with the mag. i'm only considering this because i'm not sure how powerful the three jets are going to be when ran by the mag 9.5 i guess my question is: is the benefit of switching the pumps, if any, are great enough to go ahead and switch them. AND more importantly, will the mag be enough for the MRC MR-1? a better shot of the sump if it helps: __________________ A rolling stone gathers no moss... Current Tank Info: 90g mixed reef, corner overflow (Mag 9.5), 25g refugium (Mag 5), 15g refugium, Orbit 260w pc, Pan World 50PX-X (Closed loop), AquaC EV-120 (now skimmerless)

02/26/2007, 02:06 PM	#2
3_high_low Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Boston,MA,USA Posts: 4,449	Nice rig, David. I think switching the pumps is a reasonable consideration since there respective outputs seem suitible, but it looks like you have it all plumbed, so why not give it a try the way it is? Good luck. __________________ Mark Current Tank Info: 125 gallon Vermetid Gastropod/SPS, 29 g Ghetto

02/26/2007, 03:27 PM	#4
3_high_low Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Boston,MA,USA Posts: 4,449	Well, you can reduce the return rate ( I see you have ball valves in the return lines.). This would allow some of the bubbles to dissipate before reaching the return pump. Also, you could install a down facing elbow on your sump pick-up pipe so that it sucks water from the very bottom of the sump. Another thing to consider, maybe you have already accounted for this, but what happens when you kill the pump? Is there enough volume in the sump to contain the water that back-flows? Do you have check valves in the return lines? You'd hate to have a flood in the event of a power failure. __________________ Mark Current Tank Info: 125 gallon Vermetid Gastropod/SPS, 29 g Ghetto

02/26/2007, 04:27 PM	#5
davidryder Claris or Elliot? Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Nightopia Posts: 2,750	i think the skimmer is creating the additional flow through the baffles, not giving the bubbles time to dissipate. i believe, however, that there is a modification i can do to the standpipe that helps with the air intake, but i haven't been able to find anything on it... __________________ A rolling stone gathers no moss... Current Tank Info: 90g mixed reef, corner overflow (Mag 9.5), 25g refugium (Mag 5), 15g refugium, Orbit 260w pc, Pan World 50PX-X (Closed loop), AquaC EV-120 (now skimmerless)

02/26/2007, 04:45 PM	#6
chaseracing Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Bartlett, IL Posts: 1,208	There are two things I am seeing. You have actually spotted both yourself. I ball valve will SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the amount of bubbles in the sump from the return line. You only need to close the ball valve just slightly to provide some backpressure. The return line will then be a solid stream of water that most of the bubbles would have burst before even getting to the sump. I found the ball valve worked best if it was at the end of the line and submerged under water. The ball valve will also slow down the flow going through your sump effectively letting the microbubbles from your skimmer to burst in the bubble trap. I had the same problem. After spending $9 on 3 ball valves, my microbubble problems were solved. HTH, -=E=- I will try and snap off a pic of mine for you. __________________ I want my dog's life. Current Tank Info: 150gal RR Oceanic - (3) 250w. ReefLux 12K, (2) 96w PC 50/50, (3) Tunze 6025 modded, (3) Tunze 6045's, ASM G3, MRC-1, Melev F sump/fuge, all run off of an Aquacontroller Jr. Mixed Reef w/ lots of Fish and not enough rock.

02/26/2007, 05:03 PM	#7
chaseracing Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Bartlett, IL Posts: 1,208	I just thought of something else. I also have a corner of my sump that is somewhat boxed off that my return line runs into. This gives it somewhat of a skimming effect, and the water escapes from the channel out of the bottom. You seem handy enough. Adding this can also help. Marc Levenson has a great pic on his site. Follow this link to a custom sump he built. On the 5th picture down, there is a great pic of the corner trap. Mine has slots on the bottom. (not pcitured) http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/s...p_model_j.html -=E=- __________________ I want my dog's life. Current Tank Info: 150gal RR Oceanic - (3) 250w. ReefLux 12K, (2) 96w PC 50/50, (3) Tunze 6025 modded, (3) Tunze 6045's, ASM G3, MRC-1, Melev F sump/fuge, all run off of an Aquacontroller Jr. Mixed Reef w/ lots of Fish and not enough rock.

02/27/2007, 12:46 AM	#9
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	A couple of things come to mind: Brand new plumbing will generate tons of bubbles for up to 14 days. It takes time for them to slime over, but once they do the bubbles are virtually stopped. The ball valve on the drain line concerns me merely because if a snail or fish goes down it could very well be a cork that stops the line. The display tank will no longer drain and shortly thereafter overflow until the sump runs out of water. A bubble tower filled with LR rubble will help immensely. Here's a brief video of the bubble tower I had in my 29g's (Model A) sump: http://www.melevsreef.com/video/trapped_bubbles.wmv (1.2 megs) You may need a tower for the skimmer's output perhaps. I would have it dump out on the left end of the sump, so that the water has to travel around the skimmer and to the bubble trap.

02/27/2007, 12:10 PM	#11
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Most skimmers don't do well with back pressure. Several, if not all, have to have their output at the water's surface rather than below it. Otherwise the water level within the skimmer can't be controlled. The solution to this is to put the skimmer on a stand to lift it up in the sump to the proper (mfg's recommended) depth. Some have limited vertical height in their stand and don't have the room to put a stand under the skimmer and still have it fit, let alone have access to clean the collection cup. For those, they have to run their sump with a shallow water level so their skimmer can operate correctly. The bubble tower is for the drain line from the display tank. The skimmer's output should be fine, just pointing it the direction you have it in the drawing.

02/27/2007, 02:53 PM	#12
davidryder Claris or Elliot? Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Nightopia Posts: 2,750	ok i have created a bubble tower. the tower itself is 8" high, and the bubble trap baffles are 9" high, so this way the level in the sump will be 9" and with the 8" bubble tower, the skimmer won't have to drain uphill. as per Andy at My Reef Creations, a 9" water level will be fine for the skimmer. Here are some photos of my progress. I have yet to glue the tower to the glass. ^^^ this is a full view of the sump. the baffle on the left is 8" and the lower baffles on the right are 9". the other section of the bubble tower will be where my drain from the overflow goes. both chambers will be full of live rock. i'm actually thinking the divider is unnecessary, any thoughts on that? ^^^ this is the sump with the skimmer installed ^^^the only thing i need in the above picture is some sort of 'O' ring to help keep the water from coming out of that hole. __________________ A rolling stone gathers no moss... Current Tank Info: 90g mixed reef, corner overflow (Mag 9.5), 25g refugium (Mag 5), 15g refugium, Orbit 260w pc, Pan World 50PX-X (Closed loop), AquaC EV-120 (now skimmerless)

02/27/2007, 02:56 PM	#13
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	The divider will help the baffle not bend in th center due to water pressure. How does the water exit? At the bottom? I can't tell.

02/27/2007, 10:30 PM	#15
davidryder Claris or Elliot? Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Nightopia Posts: 2,750	one thing i have learned, is it is much much easier to plan the job thoroughly, make detailed drawings, and do it with the right tools the first time!!! a lot of trips to lowes could have been saved if i just used the right materials and tools the first time! anyway, i siliconed the edges of the baffles and put a small bead of JB Weld on the bottom corner of the divider in the middle of the bubble tower. i'll pick up some live rock rubble tomorrow and run some water through it tomorrow night. if i still have bubble problems, i'm going to have to downgrade the skimmer :-( __________________ A rolling stone gathers no moss... Current Tank Info: 90g mixed reef, corner overflow (Mag 9.5), 25g refugium (Mag 5), 15g refugium, Orbit 260w pc, Pan World 50PX-X (Closed loop), AquaC EV-120 (now skimmerless)

02/27/2007, 10:39 PM	#16
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	I would have had the water drain out the bottom, as the rock blocks the path of the bubbles and tends to trap many. Sounds like my reply came too late though. Having the baffle higher than the water level will contain the saltspray too.

02/28/2007, 12:12 AM	#18
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	That will work. Raise it up about 1.5".

02/28/2007, 12:45 AM	#19
davidryder Claris or Elliot? Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Nightopia Posts: 2,750	ok... here we go: ^^^ the skimmer drain passes through both of those bulkheads if you can't tell ^^^ as you can see it's a VERY tight fit in there, but it does fit! that book was the perfect height too... i scaled the images down a bit, i didn't realize how big they were on smaller screens, sorry if they were overwhelming to anyone __________________ A rolling stone gathers no moss... Current Tank Info: 90g mixed reef, corner overflow (Mag 9.5), 25g refugium (Mag 5), 15g refugium, Orbit 260w pc, Pan World 50PX-X (Closed loop), AquaC EV-120 (now skimmerless)

02/28/2007, 10:30 PM	#20
davidryder Claris or Elliot? Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Nightopia Posts: 2,750	i still have about the same bubble problem. i think i'm going to try a skimmer of the same caliber but requires a much smaller pump! i am looking at the AquaC EV-120... any thoughts on this skimmer? Or the Tunze 9005... __________________ A rolling stone gathers no moss... Current Tank Info: 90g mixed reef, corner overflow (Mag 9.5), 25g refugium (Mag 5), 15g refugium, Orbit 260w pc, Pan World 50PX-X (Closed loop), AquaC EV-120 (now skimmerless)

02/28/2007, 10:38 PM	#21
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Are you running this with freshwater or saltwater? Have you given it 14 days to break in?

02/28/2007, 10:51 PM	#24
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	No, but then I can't see exactly what all is going on. A video would be good. Does the return section fill with bubbles as well, or is it mainly bubbles on the intake / skimmer section? What happens if you don't run the skimmer?

02/28/2007, 10:52 PM	#25
skwirl Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: tn Posts: 872	if you had the mr2, you could do the u tube mod... from what i understand, it makes quite a bit of difference. i just got through plumbing mine, and doing the mod myself (mr2). i also changed a few other things. hopefully i will be bubble free when i fill it up. do a search on steves u tube mod for the mr2