New fish copper quarantine...Good or bad idea?

[Tupps11]

I was curious about how many of you guys quarantine your fish before placing them in your main display tanks? I just turned my 65 gallon into a hospital/quarantine tank and my 130 gallon is being built as we speak. According to the research ive done, it is important to quarantine fish for 4-6 weeks to make sure they are not carriers of any diseases. Since my quarantine tank will not have any live rock or inverts, i was thinking that this 4-6 week period can be sped up with the use of copper. Maybe say...10 days? Is this a bad idea?

[JokerGirl]

If it's wet, I do my best to try and quarantine it. The only fish that I didn't QT long term was my Kole Tang. It had been kept in a 5g tank at my pet store for over 2 weeks and wasn't taking to it very well. When I put it in my 10g to try to QT, it started thrashing about and was scratching itself up pretty badly, and wouldn't eat. I left it in there for a week, didn't see any ich spots, so I took the risk of putting it in my tank. All went well luckily, but it a risky move. Let me tell you, it's a lot happier in my 90g than I've ever seen the poor guy.

[Tupps11]

Originally posted by JokerGirl
If it's wet, I do my best to try and quarantine it. The only fish that I didn't QT long term was my Kole Tang. It had been kept in a 5g tank at my pet store for over 2 weeks and wasn't taking to it very well. When I put it in my 10g to try to QT, it started thrashing about and was scratching itself up pretty badly, and wouldn't eat. I left it in there for a week, didn't see any ich spots, so I took the risk of putting it in my tank. All went well luckily, but it a risky move. Let me tell you, it's a lot happier in my 90g than I've ever seen the poor guy.

Thanks for the reply. But i was curious about using copper in the quarantine tank to speed up the quarantine period. Most diseases cant live in a tank that has been treated by copper. I figured it was the best way to guarantee the fish is healthy while speeding up the 4-6 week period.

Good or bad idea?

[kau_cinta_ku]

IMO only treat for sysptoms you can see. do not treat a healthy fish or it can cause stress and make the fish become ill. and yes i QT all new arivals, it is a long process but in the end it pays off. just take your time and don't rush anything

[Shagsbeard]

Copper is a toxin. The idea of using copper is to "almost" kill your fish. Hopefully, this will kill the parasite and not do lasting harm to your fish. It's not "good" for the fish, but sometimes it's necessary. It's a lot like chemotheraphy for cancer patients. Do you want your doctor to prescribe chemo on the chance that you have cancer? I vote no as being cruel.

QT is fine. If you see signs of Ich, then treat it. I wouldn't use a 65 gal as a hospital tank... it's going to cost you three times as much as it would to treat a fish in a 20.

[hmello@bermexin]

Do the quarantine and freshwater dips. You will be far ahead of most.
www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm

[Tupps11]

Thanks for the replies guys. I wasnt very aware of the harmful effects of copper. Thats what the forum is for

Ill keep the quarantine copper free until i see signs of disease. Hopefully, i never will.

Originally Posted by Shagsbeard

QT is fine. If you see signs of Ich, then treat it. I wouldn't use a 65 gal as a hospital tank... it's going to cost you three times as much as it would to treat a fish in a 20.

I know im better off with a smaller quarantine, but i started the hobby with my 65 gallon. Id rather use it as a quarantine since its already an established tank. My new 135 gallon will be the new main display tank. I honestly have no room for a smaller 20 gallon quarantine.

[steri]

I don't mean to go against the grain here, but for Devils's Advocate purposes I will.

Tupps, I should start off by saying, if you plan to use a 65 gallon as a Qt then you will be just fine QTing any fish, although I agree, I would not use copper unless signs were present to do so.

Whenever a fish is moved, it goes under a ton of stress. Add to that doing freshwater dips, or putting them into tiny QT's for 4-6 weeks (like 10 gallons or whatever), and I honestly believe what you do is provide a greater oppertunity for a healthy fish to become sick becuase the added stress forces teh fish to lose his slime coating (which in large ways acts as a fishes immune system). I mean really, in most LFS's the fish area already in tanks too small for them to do well in. Why prolong the stress they have already been under?

In most cases I do not agree with QT systems because although the sick fish is not in the main tank, you just add so much stress to the fish by taking him out, and then even more stress by putting him in a tiny environment he was never meant to live in in the first place.

When you do all of that, and then add things like hypo or freshwater dips into the mix, or unatural chemicals like Copper, I think the chance for success goes way down for that fish, but that's just my opinion talking here.

QT's, in my opinion, are only good if you are able to set up a large one, say 40 gallons or bigger because then the size will provide more comfort for the fish, although they will still be stressed from being moved AGAIN into a different environment. If all you can do QT wise is set up a 10 or 20 gallon, I really think the chance of success in that type of a tank goes way down, but again, it's just my opinion.

As stated before, Tupps with a 65, you should be good. I would take the risk of using a QT with a tank that size.

[Tupps11]

Originally posted by steri
I don't mean to go against the grain here, but for Devils's Advocate purposes I will.

Tupps, I should start off by saying, if you plan to use a 65 gallon as a Qt then you will be just fine QTing any fish, although I agree, I would not use copper unless signs were present to do so.

Whenever a fish is moved, it goes under a ton of stress. Add to that doing freshwater dips, or putting them into tiny QT's for 4-6 weeks (like 10 gallons or whatever), and I honestly believe what you do is provide a greater oppertunity for a healthy fish to become sick becuase the added stress forces teh fish to lose his slime coating (which in large ways acts as a fishes immune system). I mean really, in most LFS's the fish area already in tanks too small for them to do well in. Why prolong the stress they have already been under?

In most cases I do not agree with QT systems because although the sick fish is not in the main tank, you just add so much stress to the fish by taking him out, and then even more stress by putting him in a tiny environment he was never meant to live in in the first place.

When you do all of that, and then add things like hypo or freshwater dips into the mix, or unatural chemicals like Copper, I think the chance for success goes way down for that fish, but that's just my opinion talking here.

QT's, in my opinion, are only good if you are able to set up a large one, say 40 gallons or bigger because then the size will provide more comfort for the fish, although they will still be stressed from being moved AGAIN into a different environment. If all you can do QT wise is set up a 10 or 20 gallon, I really think the chance of success in that type of a tank goes way down, but again, it's just my opinion.

As stated before, Tupps with a 65, you should be good. I would take the risk of using a QT with a tank that size.

Everything you mentioned makes perfect sense to me. The stress of being in a tiny tank can be catastrophic to any fish thats been moved. Ill stay away from the chemicals (copper) unless i see a good reason to use them. Thanks for the info

[techigirl78]

Steri - I think you have some valid points, but you did not mention that one of the biggest values of the QT is to ensure the safety of your existing inhabitants in your main tank. This is one of the primary reasons that I QT new inhaibitants.

Also, I would disagree that a 40 gal is the minimum required for a QT tank. There are many fish (small clowns, gobies, wrasses, blennies, etc.) that do well in 10/20 gallon tank especially on a short term basis. I have even had good results QTing some of my small gobies in a 7 gallon with no issue. Many people have tanks around 40 gal or smaller, so a QT tank that size would seem unrealistic. However, if a person's intention is to get many larger fish, fish requiring more space, or introducing groups of fish at the same time, then yes, I would agree that a perm, larger QT tank may be in order.

[steri]

Techgirl, I agree with you, QT's help keep the other tank inhabitants safe, but I would argue that when you put a new fish in the main tank, you are not putting the other water in the tank, just the fish. Once again, this is just my opinion, but many fish when bought, if they happen to get sick, I would imagine that is more a cause of the stress they are under, or something that is already in your main tank that your other inhabitants have already built up an immunity to. I can't speak for everyone, or every fish, but I feel like I closely inspect a fish sometimes for weeks before I purchase it. I feel like when I buy a fish I have a very good idea as to the fishes health before I buy it. If the fish looks poor at the store; has fungus, any spots, dorsal fins drop, not active in the tank, not eating in it's environment, etc, those are all signs to me to not buy the fsh becuse it is probably not healthy enough to be moved.

There are many schools of thought out there for example, that would say you can never take ich completely out of your tank, but that your fish just become healthy enough to fight off the parasite. Although a fish may be fine in a QT, under this philosophy, once you move him into the main tank, he will be stressed out all over again, lose his slime coating (just like he did when you put him in the QT), and now has a low immune system to fight off against anything that is already in the tank, just as he would have it he were put in the tank right off the bat.

As far as QTing smaller fish in a smaller QT. Ya, I know, things like firefish, and clowns are better in smaller tanks then things like tangs, butterflies, angels, etc, but I would still argue that the smaller the environment, the higher the potential for stress to the fish, thus the higher risk the fish could become sick. Like I said, a 65 for a Qt is a good idea. I, personally just don't like the idea of housing a fish in a 10 or a 20 as a temporary home, only to stress them out all over again 4 weeks later.

I hope no one gets the wrong impression by what I am saying. I know there are many schools of thought on this subject. I'm not saying anything you guys do or don't do is right or wrong. I guess I'm just giving my personal reasons for being against smaller QT's.

[Tupps11]

Both of your arguments sound logical to me. Im trying to figure out the least stressful method of moving a fish from one tank to another. I think the net is probably one of the worst methods since it freaks the heck out of the fish. I read somthing about herding fish into a clear plastic container after dark.

As far as keeping a 65 gallon as my quarantine...cant go any smaller since my 65 is already established and in a completely different part of the house.

[techigirl78]

I use something very similar to this and it works nicely for me: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...1&N=2004&Nty=1

[kfowler]

I hypo all my fish in QT for 6 weeks. Hypo seems to be the least stressful and studies have shown that it can be beneficial for a short period of time. Long term hypo can damage kidneys if I recall correctly. I use a 10g QT but my display is only 20g so no big or active fish. I believe the benefits of Qt'ing far out way any negatives.

Some of the benefits I see are:
1.) Obviously reduces risk of infecting display tank.
2.) Allows the fish to be in an environment without any other fish picking at it.
3.) Allows fish to eat without competition and regain any lost weight.
4.) Here's a big one. The fish will get used to seeing you and know that you bring food.
5.) Allows you to closely monitor the fish without it ducking behind LR and never coming out.
6.) Heck of a lot easier to catch and treat in a QT than a display.

So my experience is a QT tank provides a very stress free environment for any new fish.

[Tupps11]

Originally posted by kfowler
I hypo all my fish in QT for 6 weeks. Hypo seems to be the least stressful and studies have shown that it can be beneficial for a short period of time. Long term hypo can damage kidneys if I recall correctly. I use a 10g QT but my display is only 20g so no big or active fish. I believe the benefits of Qt'ing far out way any negatives.

Some of the benefits I see are:
1.) Obviously reduces risk of infecting display tank.
2.) Allows the fish to be in an environment without any other fish picking at it.
3.) Allows fish to eat without competition and regain any lost weight.
4.) Here's a big one. The fish will get used to seeing you and know that you bring food.
5.) Allows you to closely monitor the fish without it ducking behind LR and never coming out.
6.) Heck of a lot easier to catch and treat in a QT than a display.

So my experience is a QT tank provides a very stress free environment for any new fish.

Sorry, but im new to this term "hypo"

Can someone explain please?

[bureau13]

Wow, I disagree with a lot of stuff in this thread. Of course, there's way more than just a single way to do things and be successful, so I'll tell you what I do.

I have 29 gal QT. I also have a wet/dry and a Euroreef skimmer on it...WAY overkill, but I happened to have them, and now I never have to worry about ammonia build-up again...that can be a major problem if you don't keep your QT running always and try to set it up and run it quickly. Of course a larger QT system means you can do more fish, larger fish, etc...but if you have to medicate the tank you'll be using a lot more medication.

About ich...its simply not true that it can't be successfully eradicated from your tank...it is a parasite that MUST have a fish host to complete its lifecycle, therefore if you want to make sure it is gone from your tank, keep it fishless for 6-8 weeks. No more ich, guaranteed. The problem is, its pretty easy to re-introduce it.

I think copper is getting a bad rap here. I use Cupramine (a seemingly less harsh copper-based med) always in my QT unless I'm trying to introduce a fish that is especially sensitive to copper, e.g. a Mandarin or puffer. Some people use hypo...basically they do the same thing, they kill the parasites at a specific stage of their lifecycle (NOT the stage where they're on the fish itself) so it doesn't really shorten the QT period. 4-6 weeks however and the ich is gone. The one big advantage copper has over hypo is if you happen to encounter Marine Velvet. Its a parasite similar to ich, only it moves faster and can pretty much wipe out your fish if it gets in your tank...nasty nasty stuff, and yes, I had a bout of it back in my pre-QT days. Hypo won't touch velvet, but copper will.

The reason I always use it, rather than only when the fish show signs, is that it appears you can have fish that have a built-up immunity to it, in that they don't show symptoms, but they can still have minor unseen infections which will keep the little buggers in your tank. Now, I've always been a bit uncomfortable with the fact that when velvet wiped out most of my fish, a couple fish never showed symptoms, etc. And no one has ever reacquired it. So, can it die off if the tank is not fishless, but is free of symptomatic fish? I don't know. Maybe...this does not appear to be well understood, as people will very emphatically tell you that it won't, but if that's the case, why have I never seen more signs of it?

Anyway, that's why I use copper whether I see symptoms or not, and I've never been able to attribute fish deaths in QT to copper. And I don't "almost kill my fish." They don't show the least signs of stress from proper doses of this medication.

One final thing...people say to QT everything wet...just know that you can't use copper or hypo on inverts...even the unseen guys in live rock, etc.

Sorry for the long-winded post.....in the unlikely even that you're still reading, check out a really cool QT method called tank transfer. It becomes inconvenient if you have to use anything larger than a 10 gal, but for smaller stuff...very cool. Search if you're interested and you'll find stuff about it...

jds

[kfowler]

Tupps11 hypo=hyposalinity. Dropping your salinity from 1.026sg to 1.009sg.

[Tupps11]

Originally posted by bureau13
Wow, I disagree with a lot of stuff in this thread. Of course, there's way more than just a single way to do things and be successful, so I'll tell you what I do.

I have 29 gal QT. I also have a wet/dry and a Euroreef skimmer on it...WAY overkill, but I happened to have them, and now I never have to worry about ammonia build-up again...that can be a major problem if you don't keep your QT running always and try to set it up and run it quickly. Of course a larger QT system means you can do more fish, larger fish, etc...but if you have to medicate the tank you'll be using a lot more medication.

About ich...its simply not true that it can't be successfully eradicated from your tank...it is a parasite that MUST have a fish host to complete its lifecycle, therefore if you want to make sure it is gone from your tank, keep it fishless for 6-8 weeks. No more ich, guaranteed. The problem is, its pretty easy to re-introduce it.

I think copper is getting a bad rap here. I use Cupramine (a seemingly less harsh copper-based med) always in my QT unless I'm trying to introduce a fish that is especially sensitive to copper, e.g. a Mandarin or puffer. Some people use hypo...basically they do the same thing, they kill the parasites at a specific stage of their lifecycle (NOT the stage where they're on the fish itself) so it doesn't really shorten the QT period. 4-6 weeks however and the ich is gone. The one big advantage copper has over hypo is if you happen to encounter Marine Velvet. Its a parasite similar to ich, only it moves faster and can pretty much wipe out your fish if it gets in your tank...nasty nasty stuff, and yes, I had a bout of it back in my pre-QT days. Hypo won't touch velvet, but copper will.

The reason I always use it, rather than only when the fish show signs, is that it appears you can have fish that have a built-up immunity to it, in that they don't show symptoms, but they can still have minor unseen infections which will keep the little buggers in your tank. Now, I've always been a bit uncomfortable with the fact that when velvet wiped out most of my fish, a couple fish never showed symptoms, etc. And no one has ever reacquired it. So, can it die off if the tank is not fishless, but is free of symptomatic fish? I don't know. Maybe...this does not appear to be well understood, as people will very emphatically tell you that it won't, but if that's the case, why have I never seen more signs of it?

Anyway, that's why I use copper whether I see symptoms or not, and I've never been able to attribute fish deaths in QT to copper. And I don't "almost kill my fish." They don't show the least signs of stress from proper doses of this medication.

One final thing...people say to QT everything wet...just know that you can't use copper or hypo on inverts...even the unseen guys in live rock, etc.

Sorry for the long-winded post.....in the unlikely even that you're still reading, check out a really cool QT method called tank transfer. It becomes inconvenient if you have to use anything larger than a 10 gal, but for smaller stuff...very cool. Search if you're interested and you'll find stuff about it...

jds

Thanks for the good info. I love this forum

Tupps11 hypo=hyposalinity. Dropping your salinity from 1.026sg to 1.009sg

Thanks. Thats what i thought. Just wanted to make sure

[WaterKeeper]

Using meds in a Q-tank is always a topic of debate and the outcome is about 50/50 with many people doing meds and others not. I'm with the group who tend not to medicate unless there is a sign of a problem. This is especially true in the use of antibiotics. Fish bacteria, just like human bacteria, can build up resistance to the medication. Copper does not create resistant ciliates, the protozoans responsible for ich or velvet, but some fish are allergic to it and can suffer with its routine use.

[Ryand63]

Those of you that DO use copper as a precautionary, what levels do you run it at for fish if they ARe NOT showing signs. .3?

[Reu2]

Originally Posted by Ryand63

Those of you that DO use copper as a precautionary, what levels do you run it at for fish if they ARe NOT showing signs. .3?

If I understand the use of copper correctly, allowing it to drop under .04 means you'd have to start the treatment over again. It's very important to keep levels as consistent as possible, or some of the 4 life stages of marine ick can survive.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/3/mini

The tank transfer method with hypo salinity (reduces stress) starting with a vitamin treatment and stress coat is showing much success with ick. 4 transfers every 3 days in the AM will break the ick life cycle. But this doesn't treat other possible bugs, so after tank transfers they should then be observed and treated for anything else (most popular treatment is PraziPro I think and I use).

[Deinonych]

I quarantine all incoming fish. I've had to deal with an outbreak of cryptocaryon before, and I never want to go through that again. Tearing down the rockwork to catch fish is a royal pain. I also proactively treat, since fish can carry subclinical infections without obvious signs of disease. My QT procedure is two rounds of Prazipro @ 5 days each, followed by 4 weeks of chloroquine phosphate at 10mg/l (15mg/l if active disease is present). After medicating, I observe for an additional two weeks minimum to make sure the fish is healthy.

Your mileage may vary.

[spieszak]

Originally Posted by Reu2

If I understand the use of copper correctly, allowing it to drop under .04 means you'd have to start the treatment over again. It's very important to keep levels as consistent as possible, or some of the 4 life stages of marine ick can survive.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/3/mini

The tank transfer method with hypo salinity (reduces stress) starting with a vitamin treatment and stress coat is showing much success with ick. 4 transfers every 3 days in the AM will break the ick life cycle. But this doesn't treat other possible bugs, so after tank transfers they should then be observed and treated for anything else (most popular treatment is PraziPro I think and I use).

The cupramine folks recommend .35 for 6 weeks (I think, check the numbers before taking this as true) on copper sensitive fish... and many have used it that way with success. From what I remember of reading this was that in lower numbers you can only kill in certain stages, but the extended time period gets you through enough cycles, kind of like tank transfer does... or something like that. I'm not currently treating or QT'ing, so my memory is a little foggy.
I don't proactively treat all fish with copper (I do with prazi though) but if I think there is anything questionable about the fish, or I know a fish is more susceptible, I do. I would always do something proactive with a clown or a tang, given their susceptibility to brook and ich, but on other fish, observation would make my decision. So, I'm kind of in the middle on that.

[inetmug]

Originally Posted by spieszak

The cupramine folks recommend .35 for 6 weeks (I think, check the numbers before taking this as true) on copper sensitive fish... and many have used it that way with success. From what I remember of reading this was that in lower numbers you can only kill in certain stages, but the extended time period gets you through enough cycles, kind of like tank transfer does... or something like that. I'm not currently treating or QT'ing, so my memory is a little foggy.
I don't proactively treat all fish with copper (I do with prazi though) but if I think there is anything questionable about the fish, or I know a fish is more susceptible, I do. I would always do something proactive with a clown or a tang, given their susceptibility to brook and ich, but on other fish, observation would make my decision. So, I'm kind of in the middle on that.

The cupramine folks recommend .5 these days, its all over their site.

[bnumair]

cupramine is a weak form of copper and its should be dosed at 0.5 for minimum 4 weeks. Seachem had a weaker treatment recommendation that led to many fish still carrying ich after treatment. if i remember correctly they used to recommend 0.35 for 2 weeks and now it got changed to 0.5 for 4 weeks.