Cleaning DSB or replace?

[NHLaCrosse]

I think my DSB has reached the end of its useful life, after about 3 1/2 years. Can it be cleaned and/or regenerated or should it be completely replaced. I am thinking it is my DSB because I have maintained the same routine of feeding and water changes for years without any problems, and I have no other ideas as to what could be causing this rise.

[Kip]

rise in what?

[NHLaCrosse]

Forgot to mention it is my phosphate level that is on the rise.

[Kip]

oh


what have you done to export po4?


as far as sand beds... IMO... if you keep the appropriate sand critters in there, stock the tank properly, and control import/export... sand bed will last indefinitely

[NHLaCrosse]

I have just started to use phosguard.

[gman0526]

If you want a DSB then replace it. There's no way to "clean" a DSB, it is what it is, a nutrient sink that eventually fills up no matter what amount of critters or microfauna you load it up with, Pods and worms poop too you know?.

[Kip]

sigh

[Overland04]

What about thoses sand sifting stars that by RC definition can kill an established sand bed in about two months?

[hien.nguyen80]

Wait, so which is it? DSB last indefinitely? Or.... they need to be replaced every few years?

Can't you just reseed w/ some established "clean" sand?

[Kip]

this is an argument that has been debated tons of times... i wont begin that debate again. opinions are like a--holes around here, everybody's got one.

if your sand is too far gone... start over... if it is within reason... yeah, you can re-jump start it with a new sand crew

and nope... i wouldnt recommend sand sifting stars... they are gonna eat the goodies outta the sand and then starve.

[cristhiam]

Also my understanding is a DSB doesn't absorb phosphates it helps with nitrates, denitrification. Am I wrong?

[Kip]

you are right, but if your system is overstocked, overfed, and wastes arent properly exported via strong skimming, water changes, etc... then the sandbed can become a nutrient sink.

[cristhiam]

true, actually your rock too, I was just reading Randy's article. Most likelly won't be that the case.

[Rhodesholar]

Actually I tried to explain the PO4 issue but the topic is to complex for me to do it effectively. So here are a couple articles by Randy on the matter.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issu...t2002/chem.htm
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

There has been alot of threads on the DSB sand bed issue lately. Here is a great article on the matter and everyone with ?s on DSBs should read it. The Gentleman who wrote it is Dr. Ron Shimek so I believe it is pretty credible.

Enjoy!

http://www.ronshimek.com/Deep%20Sand%20Beds.htm

Here is an excerpt from the article

>>>>>Problems:

More imagined than real problems bedevil keepers of sand beds. The imagined problems are proposed by people who are ignorant of the sand bed dynamics. Among these imaginary problems are accumulations of hydrogen sulfide and detritus, and the need for sifting. Hydrogen sulfide will indeed be formed in the lowermost layers of a deep sand bed. It will NOT migrate up through the sediments to poison a tank. Hydrogen sulfide is an amazingly toxic gas, but that toxicity is exceeded by its pungent rotten-egg odor. The gas will have an exceptionally strong odor, and will seem overwhelming at levels well BELOW toxic amounts. If you can smell this stuff without it literally taking your breath away, it won't be at a harmful concentration. There is no real evidence to indicate that it may reach toxic levels in a deep sand bed.

Detritus build up in the sediment is another non-problem. If the sediment fauna is thriving, there will be a slight build up of fine detritus while the rest will be processed by the infauna. The final imaginary problem, the presumed need for sifting in a healthy sand bed, simply does not exist. Small organism movements "sift" the sand sufficiently. Any other sifting of a healthy bed will cause serious harm.

Sand beds recycle materials and export many of the excess nutrients in an aquarium. Some excess nutrients are mobilized by becoming soluble through metabolic processes and need to be exported either as harvestable macroalgae or animals, grown in the main tank or a sump.

The only real problem with a sand bed is the reduction in diversity as the bed ages. This is caused by extinction and replacement problems because the volume of our beds is simply too small for some species to generate self-sustaining populations. This is remedied, by purchasing a detritivore or recharge kit or two every year or so to give a boost to the fauna.>>>>>>>

[AZDesertRat]

There is no reason to replace a sandbed if it has been taken care of properly. There is no "lifespan" as long as you keep the bacteria and sandbed life up by giving it a jump start every once in a while.

[gman0526]

Great articles by Randy, but in that excerpt from Ron's manual to falling off a log, where does it tackle the PO4 build up in the SB?

Assuming that you load up the DSB with critters... they need to eat ,they take phosphorous compounds (food) from the water column and migrate them into the sandbed, after they digest whatever they need to live, grow and reproduce... they poop, then come lower life forms all the way down to bacteria and eat that poop. What happens next afetr the bacteria dies?

BTW, not turning this into a DSB/BB thread just talking sandbeds here. FWIW, I stand by my reccomendation yank it and replace it...

[Rhodesholar]

Originally posted by gman0526
Great articles by Randy, but in that excerpt from Ron's manual to falling off a log, where does it tackle the PO4 build up in the SB?

Assuming that you load up the DSB with critters... they need to eat ,they take phosphorous compounds (food) from the water column and migrate them into the sandbed, after they digest whatever they need to live, grow and reproduce... they poop, then come lower life forms all the way down to bacteria and eat that poop. What happens next afetr the bacteria dies?

BTW, not turning this into a DSB/BB thread just talking sandbeds here. FWIW, I stand by my reccomendation yank it and replace it...

PO4 is inevitable. The DSB has nothing to do with it nor is the cause of it. If one keeps living organisms, there will be a build up of PO4 if it is not exported as the same goes for NO3.

Here's an article by Anthony Calfo on DSBs.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/deepsandbeds.htm

A short excerpt:

>>>>>>The limitations and potential pitfalls of employing a DSB’s are far less mysterious or unpredictable than previously thought. In fact, deep sand bed methodologies now have a history of more than 20 years in use and may fairly claim to be regarded as “tried and true�>>>>>>>>

Another excerpt:

>>>>One last mention of the improper implementation of plenum and deep sand bed strategies collectively. We should like to dispel the most common corruption of the application for those interested to know or try it. Severe criticism of their use has faulted them for becoming "nutrient sinks": trapping and accumulating detritus to levels that cripple water quality and fuel nuisance algae growths. The reality of the matter may likely be that an incorrect application of the technology caused the rift. As aquarists, we too often have inadequate water flow, which prevents detritus and organic particulates from being properly exported by protein skimming and other filtration dynamics. In turn, excess detritus settles in pockets and migrates deep into the substrate. Furthermore, course sand and gravel is still quite popular and allows particulates to settle and accumulate rather easily. The killing blow to a flawed application with course substrates in weakly circulated aquarium is the unfortunately popular employment of intermediate depths of sand at 1"-3" (25-75mm). In this mid range, the sand is often too deep to be wholly aerobic and yet not deep enough for efficient denitrifying faculties. As such, the two dominant (and desired!) biological populations are restricted if not excluded at large and the sand bed may become a dead zone... a nutrient sink. However, intermediate sand depths can be maintained successfully (often, in fact!), but require due diligence with regular sifting naturally or mechanically (by the aquarist or by creatures in the aquarium), strong water flow in the tank, realistic bio-loads, etc.>>>>>>

[gman0526]

That's great, but the problem is that NHLaCrosse's case all this information is mute since apparently the DSB has reached a saturation point based on his observations. No amount of critters, flow, layers is going to take care of that at this time. Soooo... This DSB has to be replaced.

If all this is true, how do you keep a DSB working properly if you need X amount of critters, that need X amount of food and we're supposed to keep anything from settling on the DSB via flow? What do they eat in order to live/reproduce and keep the DSB? How do you keep the biggest living organism in your tank from starving?

[taketz]

Having seen the DSB's eventual crash firsthand, I would recommend replacing it.

You're having problems that are being caused by your DSB, you know this. The easiest thing is just to get rid of the cause of the problem...

Furthermore this quote

>>>>One last mention of the improper implementation of plenum and deep sand bed strategies collectively. We should like to dispel the most common corruption of the application for those interested to know or try it. Severe criticism of their use has faulted them for becoming "nutrient sinks": trapping and accumulating detritus to levels that cripple water quality and fuel nuisance algae growths. The reality of the matter may likely be that an incorrect application of the technology caused the rift. As aquarists, we too often have inadequate water flow, which prevents detritus and organic particulates from being properly exported by protein skimming and other filtration dynamics. In turn, excess detritus settles in pockets and migrates deep into the substrate. Furthermore, course sand and gravel is still quite popular and allows particulates to settle and accumulate rather easily. The killing blow to a flawed application with course substrates in weakly circulated aquarium is the unfortunately popular employment of intermediate depths of sand at 1"-3" (25-75mm). In this mid range, the sand is often too deep to be wholly aerobic and yet not deep enough for efficient denitrifying faculties. As such, the two dominant (and desired!) biological populations are restricted if not excluded at large and the sand bed may become a dead zone... a nutrient sink. However, intermediate sand depths can be maintained successfully (often, in fact!), but require due diligence with regular sifting naturally or mechanically (by the aquarist or by creatures in the aquarium), strong water flow in the tank, realistic bio-loads, etc.>>>>>>

Pretty much sums up my feelings on DSB's entirely. Like he said, the common downfall of DSB is a lack of required flow to keep detritus suspended and able for removal via protein skimmer. Wouldn't the ability to up the flow substationally due to a sandstorm free tank be even better at this?

In the end, to each his own. There have been many beautiful and successful aquariums using both methods. I would just reccomend going full out on either method. The middle area seems to cause all sorts of problems...

[Rhodesholar]

Originally posted by NHLaCrosse
Forgot to mention it is my phosphate level that is on the rise.

Tell me in this quote where his sand bed has crashed?

IMO his sand bed has not "crashed" nor needs replacing. His tank is 3 1/2 years old and he is now building up PO4. PO4 buildup is common especially in older tanks.

The sand bed is not the cause or has failed causing the PO4 buildup. He simply is not exporting PO4 fast enough due to natural processes. PO4 will build up if not exported, the same as Nitrate. Let me ask this. If he is not running a PO4 remover, or macroalgae, where is the PO4 supposed to go? Water changes are the only means of export correct? Even changing 50% of the water every time only cuts the PO4 level in half. From there, it begins climbing till the next change. At this rate, the PO4 will continue climbing if not exported through some other method until it becomes a problem. In this case it's taken 3 1/2 years. I give this guy credit, he is on top of his tank and knows whats going on.

I have posted the articles to show that properly setup sandbeds do not fail and if he has the bed setup using the articles as reference it most likely is not failing/failed. If he doesn't, then he can apply the techniques mentioned so it doesn't.

Basically the bottom line is even with no sand bed, PO4 will build up if not exported and that is the problem he his asking for help with.

I am not trying to start a fight here guys. Were just debating. Please feel free to rebute, I welcome it. At the end of the day we can agree to disagree and the final decision comes down to the gentleman that started this thread.

[NHLaCrosse]

Thanks for all the info. I think I'll try to jump start the DSB with the addition of some critters and see it that helps, if not I'll start over.

[sunfish11]

On the sandsifting star issue...

I noticed my sandbed getting dirty so I leased one from the LFS for a couple of weeks and then brought him back. This did seem to rejuvinate the sand bed. I wouldn't ever keep one on a permanent basis though.

[JerseyReef]

I'm curious to see how NHLaCrosse made out with his DSB issue. Since playing around with DSB for nearly 10 years (yes, I was on ReefKeepers List) and for the fact I'm still using the same original DSB, I can surely tell you that proper DSB management is the key to a long life with a DSB.

In those 10 years, I've recharged twice and about to go for my third. DSB populations rise and fall and require a "boost" from time to time. Granted, I'm not on a every two year replacement cycle as Dr. Ron suggests. My system has been downgraded to a FOLWR due to time constraints (my job) and poor skimmer maintenance. I have a busted Remora Pro which isn't working at top efficiency. This doesn't allow me to keep more sensitive animals. Hence the downgrade.

Given that, my DSB does a great job keeping the system in top condition. Oh, it's a 5-6" bed and always has been that way. I think I've added sand maybe twice in the 10 years.