Weight load on my 2nd floor

jschottenfeld · 03/06/2007, 09:45 PM

I am going to ask a loaded question since I'm asking for a technical answer without providing that many technical facts. I am looking to upgrade from my 55 gal to 125gal reef. I will probably have a 30 gal sump underneath. My guess is that total weight with tank, canopy, rocks and water will be around 1800 lbs. I am putting this on my second floor which is supported by floor joists. To the best of my knowleged they would be the same that is in the drop ceiling in my basement; 2x4 joists with short diagonal 2x4's inbetween the two beams. My house is approximately 20 yrs old.

The tank dimensions are 72 x 18 and will be going perpendicular to the joists. (I believe).

Does anyone know if I should be worried. I guess the smart move would be to hire a structural engineer to inspect, but I just wanted a little guidance from the board.

Jan

clevername · 03/07/2007, 12:29 AM

I HIGHLY DOUBT and PRAY that your joists are not 2x4

If they are you have SERIOUS problems!

clevername · 03/07/2007, 12:30 AM

Please double check, and if they are call a structural engineer ASAP!

lakee911 · 03/07/2007, 05:35 AM

As the prices of lumber continue to rise, trusses such as these are commonly being used. They're safe.

If you look at the truses, you'll see a manufacturer stamped on there with some numbers. Note the manufacturer, measure your span and the space between each joist (center to center) and how far the tank is from the nearest support. Look up the manufacturer and give them a phone call. Ask them if it is ok. Chances are it is and they should be able to tell you how much deflection you'll get too. May need to do some shimming beforehand to compensate, depending on the number.

jschottenfeld · 03/07/2007, 07:14 AM

Lakee, that is exactly the type of joists used under my floor. I will look for the stamps and do the research. Thanks for your help!

bobbet43 · 03/07/2007, 09:19 PM

you have what is called floortrusses, which are probably either 16 or 19.2 inches on center and judging from the pics they will not be strong enough to handle that extra wieght unless they were designed for it from the beginning

jschottenfeld · 03/07/2007, 09:33 PM

I guess the smart move would be to invest some $$ and have a structural eng come out and see what is going on. That picture above is not from my house but it is very similar to what I have. Mine are 16" on center.

cougarguy · 03/07/2007, 10:02 PM

Lakee911 Is that picture from a Dominion home? If so are those
trusses on a 24" center?

clevername · 03/08/2007, 03:21 AM

Do some reasearch, they should do fine. I cant imagine 2000pound even coming close to breaking them.....and im talking about 2000pounds EACH.

lakee911 · 03/08/2007, 06:16 AM

Cougar, I just found that on the internet somewhere. 18 to 19.5-ish inches on center is about standard for those from what I've seen. With 16inches on center, you've only 12inches or so between joists. Not much room to work in. Probably better that way though

Jason

cougarguy · 03/08/2007, 06:34 AM

I have worked in over 1500 Dominion homes over the years and they use a 24" on center with those floor trusses they also only use 5/8" subfloors and we have always had problems with their deflection ratios.

But the reason I asked you is because in that picture there is no cross bracing and all Dominions as of 02 or 03 were required to have it because if you put a load such as a full whirlpool tub or a granite island the trusses they twist sideways and can possibly fail.

lakee911 · 03/08/2007, 11:26 AM

There should always be cross bracing. Not sure why that pic didn't have it. We'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it hadn't been installed yet.

If that were my house, 24" OC and 5/8 subfloor would be unaccetable. I bet they use OSB too, don't they? When I remodeled my kitchen I changed the subfloor from 3/4" T&G floor on 2x8s 16" OC with a 13' span to 1-1/8" ply (couple layers) with tile on 2x8's 16" OC w/ a 6.5' span. Maybe Dominion isn't the builder for me...

Jason

douggiestyle · 03/08/2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lakee911
There should always be cross bracing. Not sure why that pic didn't have it. We'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it hadn't been installed yet.

If that were my house, 24" OC and 5/8 subfloor would be unaccetable. I bet they use OSB too, don't they? When I remodeled my kitchen I changed the subfloor from 3/4" T&G floor on 2x8s 16" OC with a 13' span to 1-1/8" ply (couple layers) with tile on 2x8's 16" OC w/ a 6.5' span. Maybe Dominion isn't the builder for me...

Jason

some of these homes being built today amaze me.
like said ive seem floors so deflected from granite islands then throw in a 600lb frig. some of these things feel like your walking on a trampolene. then they want tile installed.

audioaddiction · 03/08/2007, 12:13 PM

the same is used on our seperate garage. i was thinking of eventually finishing off the room above it and i was wondering the same after thinking about putting an aquarium there too. i hope we can find out more

bobbet43 · 03/08/2007, 03:01 PM

i just built a condo with floortrusses, they were 14 inches tall 19.2 on center and as a after thought the owner wanted to put real stone on the fireplace. total weight of the stone was 2000 lbs. we checked with the company that built them for us and they ran all the loads through their computers and it failed all the tests. so i would highly recommend not putting a tank on them with out some extra support for it

freestone · 03/08/2007, 03:36 PM

I'm an architect and wouldn't recommend adding that much weight to those trusses. They are designed for an evenly distributed weight. I would contact the truss manufacturer or an engineer. sometimes you can get way with coving the sides of the trusses with plywood. without and specific details its hard to say what you should do.

shyland83 · 03/08/2007, 03:55 PM

If it was me I would cut a piece of sheetrock off of the ceiling underneath and get a good luck just to be sure. At that point it's makes it easier to reinforce as well. better safe than sorry.

lakee911 · 03/08/2007, 04:49 PM

The plywood is an option maybe. Glue and screw the sides and on the bottom as well to make stiff boxes to support floor. That or sister in a few LVLs to each truss depending on utilties running through.

good thing you checked. See a real structural engineer for more info. Try posting a message on www.johnbridge.com forums for sure and get help.

cougarguy · 03/08/2007, 05:19 PM

Hey Lakee Dominion does use OSB on their floors. I have personally seen alot of the things they do to "get by" and it kinda scares me.

I think if you were to glue and screw 1/2" ply on at least one side of those trusses it would substantially increase the strength.

hedgelj · 03/08/2007, 07:47 PM

This is off topic but when I worked as a landscaper, we almost cut the main power line running into a few house b/c it wasn't set deep enough, it was less then 12" from the surface of the yard....and this was also in the columbus area...

lakee911 · 03/08/2007, 08:36 PM

Hey, whachya sayin' about Columbus? Code would require it at least a couple feet, if I recall correctly. Perhaps grade changed over top of the electric line trench thus it was more shallow. Should have been inspected, or maybe it was done inproperly by a homeowner. Glad you didn't get electricuted.

jschottenfeld · 03/08/2007, 09:14 PM

My problem is that I initially wanted to put the tank on my second floor and the ceiling in my first floor is all sheetrocked. So I really don't know if the same construction is used to support the 2nd floor compared to the 1st. Maybe the answer is to just go with a 90 gal and cut off approx 300 pounds?

lakee911 · 03/08/2007, 09:47 PM

How far are you from a support (wall most likely) under the floor? Placing the tank perpendicular or parallel to the joists?

hahnmeister · 03/08/2007, 11:31 PM

freestone is right... those truss-style joists are not as good at handling concentrations of weight as with older beams & 2x12's. They are alot like trampolines, in that they can take alot of weight if spread out, but as soon as you have that single heavy object... the weight bearing is no longer handled by multiple 2x4's in a triangle, but that single 2x4 on its side.

The plywood add-on idea is a very good one though. I would bet that simply skinning the 4-5 floor trusses on their sides that will actually support the weight would greatly increase their load bearing. The thing I despise about those floor-trusses is that they make it super hard to add in those steel posts... there are very few good hardpoints.

Gotta love concrete and steel construction...

lakee911 · 03/09/2007, 05:17 AM

Hahn, the poster said that it's already drywalled below. Depending on where the tank is situated, it might be ok. If he's right above a load bearing wall and the tank is perpendicular to the joists, maybe it will be ok.

One thing that compounds the problem is the fact that by careful placement, one could set the tank parallel to the joists straddling just one joists and put all the weight on only one joist. Wouldn't be good.

Maybe you should consider putting the tank downstairs so you can get to the joists from below for reinforcement?

03/06/2007, 09:45 PM	#1
jschottenfeld Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Woodbury, NY Posts: 235	Weight load on my 2nd floor I am going to ask a loaded question since I'm asking for a technical answer without providing that many technical facts. I am looking to upgrade from my 55 gal to 125gal reef. I will probably have a 30 gal sump underneath. My guess is that total weight with tank, canopy, rocks and water will be around 1800 lbs. I am putting this on my second floor which is supported by floor joists. To the best of my knowleged they would be the same that is in the drop ceiling in my basement; 2x4 joists with short diagonal 2x4's inbetween the two beams. My house is approximately 20 yrs old. The tank dimensions are 72 x 18 and will be going perpendicular to the joists. (I believe). Does anyone know if I should be worried. I guess the smart move would be to hire a structural engineer to inspect, but I just wanted a little guidance from the board. Jan

03/07/2007, 12:29 AM	#2
clevername Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Manchester, MO Posts: 1,125	I HIGHLY DOUBT and PRAY that your joists are not 2x4 If they are you have SERIOUS problems! __________________ In process: 210gal, VARIOS-8 return, Kessil Lights, 80 gal sump, mp60's, and REGAL 200EXT 8" RECIRCULATING skimmer

03/07/2007, 12:30 AM	#3
clevername Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Manchester, MO Posts: 1,125	Please double check, and if they are call a structural engineer ASAP! __________________ In process: 210gal, VARIOS-8 return, Kessil Lights, 80 gal sump, mp60's, and REGAL 200EXT 8" RECIRCULATING skimmer

03/08/2007, 03:21 AM	#9
clevername Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Manchester, MO Posts: 1,125	Do some reasearch, they should do fine. I cant imagine 2000pound even coming close to breaking them.....and im talking about 2000pounds EACH. __________________ In process: 210gal, VARIOS-8 return, Kessil Lights, 80 gal sump, mp60's, and REGAL 200EXT 8" RECIRCULATING skimmer

03/08/2007, 03:55 PM	#17
shyland83 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oakdale, Long Island Posts: 1,550	If it was me I would cut a piece of sheetrock off of the ceiling underneath and get a good luck just to be sure. At that point it's makes it easier to reinforce as well. better safe than sorry. __________________ -Scott Whenever I’m about to do something, I think “would an idiot do that?” and if they would, I do not do that thing Current Tank Info: 120 gallon mixed reef

03/07/2007, 05:35 AM	#4
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,988	As the prices of lumber continue to rise, trusses such as these are commonly being used. They're safe. If you look at the truses, you'll see a manufacturer stamped on there with some numbers. Note the manufacturer, measure your span and the space between each joist (center to center) and how far the tank is from the nearest support. Look up the manufacturer and give them a phone call. Ask them if it is ok. Chances are it is and they should be able to tell you how much deflection you'll get too. May need to do some shimming beforehand to compensate, depending on the number.

03/07/2007, 07:14 AM	#5
jschottenfeld Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Woodbury, NY Posts: 235	Lakee, that is exactly the type of joists used under my floor. I will look for the stamps and do the research. Thanks for your help!

03/07/2007, 09:19 PM	#6
bobbet43 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Stoughton Wi Posts: 140	you have what is called floortrusses, which are probably either 16 or 19.2 inches on center and judging from the pics they will not be strong enough to handle that extra wieght unless they were designed for it from the beginning

03/07/2007, 09:33 PM	#7
jschottenfeld Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Woodbury, NY Posts: 235	I guess the smart move would be to invest some $$ and have a structural eng come out and see what is going on. That picture above is not from my house but it is very similar to what I have. Mine are 16" on center.

03/07/2007, 10:02 PM	#8
cougarguy Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: richwood ohio Posts: 314	Lakee911 Is that picture from a Dominion home? If so are those trusses on a 24" center?

03/08/2007, 06:16 AM	#10
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,988	Cougar, I just found that on the internet somewhere. 18 to 19.5-ish inches on center is about standard for those from what I've seen. With 16inches on center, you've only 12inches or so between joists. Not much room to work in. Probably better that way though Jason

03/08/2007, 06:34 AM	#11
cougarguy Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: richwood ohio Posts: 314	I have worked in over 1500 Dominion homes over the years and they use a 24" on center with those floor trusses they also only use 5/8" subfloors and we have always had problems with their deflection ratios. But the reason I asked you is because in that picture there is no cross bracing and all Dominions as of 02 or 03 were required to have it because if you put a load such as a full whirlpool tub or a granite island the trusses they twist sideways and can possibly fail.

03/08/2007, 11:26 AM	#12
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,988	There should always be cross bracing. Not sure why that pic didn't have it. We'll give them the benefit of the doubt that it hadn't been installed yet. If that were my house, 24" OC and 5/8 subfloor would be unaccetable. I bet they use OSB too, don't they? When I remodeled my kitchen I changed the subfloor from 3/4" T&G floor on 2x8s 16" OC with a 13' span to 1-1/8" ply (couple layers) with tile on 2x8's 16" OC w/ a 6.5' span. Maybe Dominion isn't the builder for me... Jason

03/08/2007, 12:13 PM	#14
audioaddiction Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 91	the same is used on our seperate garage. i was thinking of eventually finishing off the room above it and i was wondering the same after thinking about putting an aquarium there too. i hope we can find out more

03/08/2007, 03:01 PM	#15
bobbet43 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Stoughton Wi Posts: 140	i just built a condo with floortrusses, they were 14 inches tall 19.2 on center and as a after thought the owner wanted to put real stone on the fireplace. total weight of the stone was 2000 lbs. we checked with the company that built them for us and they ran all the loads through their computers and it failed all the tests. so i would highly recommend not putting a tank on them with out some extra support for it

03/08/2007, 03:36 PM	#16
freestone Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Middletown, New York Posts: 211	I'm an architect and wouldn't recommend adding that much weight to those trusses. They are designed for an evenly distributed weight. I would contact the truss manufacturer or an engineer. sometimes you can get way with coving the sides of the trusses with plywood. without and specific details its hard to say what you should do.

03/08/2007, 04:49 PM	#18
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,988	The plywood is an option maybe. Glue and screw the sides and on the bottom as well to make stiff boxes to support floor. That or sister in a few LVLs to each truss depending on utilties running through. good thing you checked. See a real structural engineer for more info. Try posting a message on www.johnbridge.com forums for sure and get help.

03/08/2007, 05:19 PM	#19
cougarguy Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: richwood ohio Posts: 314	Hey Lakee Dominion does use OSB on their floors. I have personally seen alot of the things they do to "get by" and it kinda scares me. I think if you were to glue and screw 1/2" ply on at least one side of those trusses it would substantially increase the strength.

03/08/2007, 07:47 PM	#20
hedgelj Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 15	This is off topic but when I worked as a landscaper, we almost cut the main power line running into a few house b/c it wasn't set deep enough, it was less then 12" from the surface of the yard....and this was also in the columbus area...

03/08/2007, 08:36 PM	#21
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,988	Hey, whachya sayin' about Columbus? Code would require it at least a couple feet, if I recall correctly. Perhaps grade changed over top of the electric line trench thus it was more shallow. Should have been inspected, or maybe it was done inproperly by a homeowner. Glad you didn't get electricuted.

03/08/2007, 09:14 PM	#22
jschottenfeld Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Woodbury, NY Posts: 235	My problem is that I initially wanted to put the tank on my second floor and the ceiling in my first floor is all sheetrocked. So I really don't know if the same construction is used to support the 2nd floor compared to the 1st. Maybe the answer is to just go with a 90 gal and cut off approx 300 pounds?

03/08/2007, 09:47 PM	#23
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,988	How far are you from a support (wall most likely) under the floor? Placing the tank perpendicular or parallel to the joists?

03/08/2007, 11:31 PM	#24
hahnmeister Moved On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Brew City, WI Posts: 10,156	freestone is right... those truss-style joists are not as good at handling concentrations of weight as with older beams & 2x12's. They are alot like trampolines, in that they can take alot of weight if spread out, but as soon as you have that single heavy object... the weight bearing is no longer handled by multiple 2x4's in a triangle, but that single 2x4 on its side. The plywood add-on idea is a very good one though. I would bet that simply skinning the 4-5 floor trusses on their sides that will actually support the weight would greatly increase their load bearing. The thing I despise about those floor-trusses is that they make it super hard to add in those steel posts... there are very few good hardpoints. Gotta love concrete and steel construction...

03/09/2007, 05:17 AM	#25
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,988	Hahn, the poster said that it's already drywalled below. Depending on where the tank is situated, it might be ok. If he's right above a load bearing wall and the tank is perpendicular to the joists, maybe it will be ok. One thing that compounds the problem is the fact that by careful placement, one could set the tank parallel to the joists straddling just one joists and put all the weight on only one joist. Wouldn't be good. Maybe you should consider putting the tank downstairs so you can get to the joists from below for reinforcement?