Start Over???

EvilE · 03/11/2007, 01:57 PM

Noone answered me in the disease forum, so maybe someone will help me here:

Hi I am new to saltwater fishkeeping, and I recently setup a 30 gallon tank with the help of my friend that is very fish knowledgeable. It has been up about 2 weeks now, and I have been using a few damsels to cycle the tank---salinity and everything is fine. Last night I noticed that one of my domino damsels has white spots all over him--I believe it to be ICH. I have read the "cures" and treatments for marine ICH, and my question is this: should I just break down the whole setup, and clean it well, and wait a week or so, and re-set it up? It seems to me the treatments for ICH are not 100%, and since the tank isn't even cycled yet, maybe the easiest way would be to just do it all over from the start. I would hate to lose the damsels, but wouldn't that be the best way of going about it? How long does ICH live out of the water? Because if I break the whole tank down, and clean it, should I let it all air dry and for how long? I don't want to reintroduce the ICH into it again after I set it back up. Also, I will cycle the tank differently this time around, using Biospira live bacteria from the LFS, and get it going faster, and use live rock this time also. Thoughts????

New_Noob · 03/11/2007, 02:52 PM

its very possible that the damsel had mild ICH at the LFS, and since your tank is cycling that is causeing alot of stress on the fish and allowing the ICH to take over, i would just let your tank cycle then fix the problem, it might be to stressful on the fish to get it out and hospitalize it. Dont use any copper based ICH treatment if you plan on having a reef also.

syrinx · 03/11/2007, 03:16 PM

I have seen ich appear in tanks that had not had any new fish added for seven years. Conventional wisdom is that there is a population in all tanks that healthy fish can easily resist. Stressed fish can pick it up in an instant. If you start over your tank will be ich free until you add your first fish. Keep going forward and use some reef safe ich meds- and keep temp up. The fish will cycle the ich faster at a higher temp and the benificial bacteria grows something like 100% faster for every 10 degrees of temp between 65 and 95. Ich is often brought on by cold temp shock- so bear that in mind when changing a large volume of water- or opening the windows on spring days.

EvilE · 03/11/2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by syrinx
I have seen ich appear in tanks that had not had any new fish added for seven years. Conventional wisdom is that there is a population in all tanks that healthy fish can easily resist. Stressed fish can pick it up in an instant. If you start over your tank will be ich free until you add your first fish. Keep going forward and use some reef safe ich meds- and keep temp up. The fish will cycle the ich faster at a higher temp and the benificial bacteria grows something like 100% faster for every 10 degrees of temp between 65 and 95. Ich is often brought on by cold temp shock- so bear that in mind when changing a large volume of water- or opening the windows on spring days.

I don't have a reef tank--right now it is just a fish only, and I was gonna add live rock this week. The ammonia hasn't spiked yet, would that kill the ich in the tank when it does??

EvilE · 03/11/2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by syrinx
I have seen ich appear in tanks that had not had any new fish added for seven years. Conventional wisdom is that there is a population in all tanks that healthy fish can easily resist. Stressed fish can pick it up in an instant. If you start over your tank will be ich free until you add your first fish. Keep going forward and use some reef safe ich meds- and keep temp up. The fish will cycle the ich faster at a higher temp and the benificial bacteria grows something like 100% faster for every 10 degrees of temp between 65 and 95. Ich is often brought on by cold temp shock- so bear that in mind when changing a large volume of water- or opening the windows on spring days.

up the temp to what, like 85 degrees??

EvilE · 03/11/2007, 04:19 PM

I will just keep my tank as is for now, and see what happens--if it gets worse then I will try something different.

SquidHC · 03/11/2007, 06:05 PM

I would have added atleast some live rock to start, its a good source of bacteria and will help make the cycle more sucessful. Also and this is just my through but there is alot of other ways to cycle a tank than putting damsels in it. Firstly its just cruel to the fish cause your water chemistry is going to be all over the place which is very very hard on them. Secondly demsels are pretty mean fish and not even good to have in your tank unless your having a fish only tank with basicaly only other damsels. Even then they may kill eachother.

If you were for whatever reason going to start your tank over I would definetely find a better way to cycle it. Start with bagged sand and a good amount of live rock, you can get a small amount of live sand with ammonia added to help start with the cycle. Give it a few weeks with the lights on and pumps up and running. You will hit a brown algea cycle that will go away about a week after it shows. A few days to a week after the brown algea is gone youll get some green algea bloom. This is a good sign that your tank is pretty much done cycling. At this point your water parameters should be pretty good. Test it daily for ammonia spikes. Once you have about a week of really stable water parameters THEN decide what fish you want and add ONE or possibly a pair. Keep them going for a good 2-3 weeks and if they are doing very well then decide what you want to add next. DONT treat your tank with medication for ICH or anything else. Go buy a five gallon tank with a small hang on back filter and use it as a hospital. Treat your fish in it, then put them back in your tank.

EvilE · 03/11/2007, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SquidHC
I would have added atleast some live rock to start, its a good source of bacteria and will help make the cycle more sucessful. Also and this is just my through but there is alot of other ways to cycle a tank than putting damsels in it. Firstly its just cruel to the fish cause your water chemistry is going to be all over the place which is very very hard on them. Secondly demsels are pretty mean fish and not even good to have in your tank unless your having a fish only tank with basicaly only other damsels. Even then they may kill eachother.

If you were for whatever reason going to start your tank over I would definetely find a better way to cycle it. Start with bagged sand and a good amount of live rock, you can get a small amount of live sand with ammonia added to help start with the cycle. Give it a few weeks with the lights on and pumps up and running. You will hit a brown algea cycle that will go away about a week after it shows. A few days to a week after the brown algea is gone youll get some green algea bloom. This is a good sign that your tank is pretty much done cycling. At this point your water parameters should be pretty good. Test it daily for ammonia spikes. Once you have about a week of really stable water parameters THEN decide what fish you want and add ONE or possibly a pair. Keep them going for a good 2-3 weeks and if they are doing very well then decide what you want to add next. DONT treat your tank with medication for ICH or anything else. Go buy a five gallon tank with a small hang on back filter and use it as a hospital. Treat your fish in it, then put them back in your tank.

I started my tank with the advice from my saltwater fish friend--I did what he suggested. I joined this site AFTER I got it up and running. I would have done things differently had I known, but it is what it is now, and I can only do the right thing from here on out. That's why I posted this--to see if I should tear it down and start over, of hang in there and see if it corrects itself. I knew I would get flamed for my situation, I am fully prepared for it, but all I can do is take you guy's/gal's advice and move forward. If that meant starting over, I would do that, but most people seem to think I should just wait it out and see how the fish are after I cycle it. Perhaps the nitrite and ammonia spikes will kill off the ICH in the tank--I dunno. I will add live rock this week, as long as you all feel I still should.

Wicked1z · 03/11/2007, 06:41 PM

just to chime in. My Domino's did the same thing when I put him into my tank to help with my cycle. It cleared in about a week by itself when he got to being good and used to his new house. I dont know if it helps or not but I was using bio-spira and stability to help get my tank going. Now I wish I had just put a piece of table shrimp in there instead. Now I will have to get all these little damn devils out of all the live rock caves somehow or I will have to tear everything appart.

EvilE · 03/11/2007, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wicked1z
just to chime in. My Domino's did the same thing when I put him into my tank to help with my cycle. It cleared in about a week by itself when he got to being good and used to his new house. I dont know if it helps or not but I was using bio-spira and stability to help get my tank going. Now I wish I had just put a piece of table shrimp in there instead. Now I will have to get all these little damn devils out of all the live rock caves somehow or I will have to tear everything appart.

wow--good to know I am not alone in this--thanks.

kau_cinta_ku · 03/11/2007, 06:49 PM

IMO if your gonna add more LR to the tank that is not cured, just take the damsels back to the LFS for credit and let the tank cycle with the uncured LR, rather then them haviong to go through more ammonia and such again.

EvilE · 03/11/2007, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kau_cinta_ku
IMO if your gonna add more LR to the tank that is not cured, just take the damsels back to the LFS for credit and let the tank cycle with the uncured LR, rather then them haviong to go through more ammonia and such again.

I was gonna add cured live rock--I have no live rock in there right now. I hace lace rock and dead coral in there--but after being here, I realized I should take that stuff out and put in live rock instead.

03/11/2007, 01:57 PM	#1
EvilE Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 2,944	Start Over??? Noone answered me in the disease forum, so maybe someone will help me here: Hi I am new to saltwater fishkeeping, and I recently setup a 30 gallon tank with the help of my friend that is very fish knowledgeable. It has been up about 2 weeks now, and I have been using a few damsels to cycle the tank---salinity and everything is fine. Last night I noticed that one of my domino damsels has white spots all over him--I believe it to be ICH. I have read the "cures" and treatments for marine ICH, and my question is this: should I just break down the whole setup, and clean it well, and wait a week or so, and re-set it up? It seems to me the treatments for ICH are not 100%, and since the tank isn't even cycled yet, maybe the easiest way would be to just do it all over from the start. I would hate to lose the damsels, but wouldn't that be the best way of going about it? How long does ICH live out of the water? Because if I break the whole tank down, and clean it, should I let it all air dry and for how long? I don't want to reintroduce the ICH into it again after I set it back up. Also, I will cycle the tank differently this time around, using Biospira live bacteria from the LFS, and get it going faster, and use live rock this time also. Thoughts????

03/11/2007, 03:16 PM	#3
syrinx Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: champaign Posts: 3,160	I have seen ich appear in tanks that had not had any new fish added for seven years. Conventional wisdom is that there is a population in all tanks that healthy fish can easily resist. Stressed fish can pick it up in an instant. If you start over your tank will be ich free until you add your first fish. Keep going forward and use some reef safe ich meds- and keep temp up. The fish will cycle the ich faster at a higher temp and the benificial bacteria grows something like 100% faster for every 10 degrees of temp between 65 and 95. Ich is often brought on by cold temp shock- so bear that in mind when changing a large volume of water- or opening the windows on spring days. __________________ My views are based on 49years as an aquarist, 25 years as a pro reef consultant, 10 years of owning a LFS, and the results of thousands of customers tanks. But I am always learning.

03/11/2007, 04:19 PM	#6
EvilE Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 2,944	I will just keep my tank as is for now, and see what happens--if it gets worse then I will try something different. __________________ Targzissians Are Obviously Reptilian Current Tank Info: 55 gallon african cichlid FW, 55 Gallon mixed reef SW

03/11/2007, 06:05 PM	#7
SquidHC Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon, USA Posts: 840	I would have added atleast some live rock to start, its a good source of bacteria and will help make the cycle more sucessful. Also and this is just my through but there is alot of other ways to cycle a tank than putting damsels in it. Firstly its just cruel to the fish cause your water chemistry is going to be all over the place which is very very hard on them. Secondly demsels are pretty mean fish and not even good to have in your tank unless your having a fish only tank with basicaly only other damsels. Even then they may kill eachother. If you were for whatever reason going to start your tank over I would definetely find a better way to cycle it. Start with bagged sand and a good amount of live rock, you can get a small amount of live sand with ammonia added to help start with the cycle. Give it a few weeks with the lights on and pumps up and running. You will hit a brown algea cycle that will go away about a week after it shows. A few days to a week after the brown algea is gone youll get some green algea bloom. This is a good sign that your tank is pretty much done cycling. At this point your water parameters should be pretty good. Test it daily for ammonia spikes. Once you have about a week of really stable water parameters THEN decide what fish you want and add ONE or possibly a pair. Keep them going for a good 2-3 weeks and if they are doing very well then decide what you want to add next. DONT treat your tank with medication for ICH or anything else. Go buy a five gallon tank with a small hang on back filter and use it as a hospital. Treat your fish in it, then put them back in your tank. __________________ We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams. Current Tank Info: 30x30 cube under construction!

03/11/2007, 06:41 PM	#9
Wicked1z Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Maryville, TN Posts: 70	just to chime in. My Domino's did the same thing when I put him into my tank to help with my cycle. It cleared in about a week by itself when he got to being good and used to his new house. I dont know if it helps or not but I was using bio-spira and stability to help get my tank going. Now I wish I had just put a piece of table shrimp in there instead. Now I will have to get all these little damn devils out of all the live rock caves somehow or I will have to tear everything appart. __________________ , O }\ o ) \ .' `\ . ( }}< ( 6> ) ) ) / `, .' ( ( ( ( }/ ) ) ) ) ' ( ( ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^^ Current Tank Info: 55 gal FOWLR 2 Dwarf Lions, Sleeper Goby, lawnmower blenny, Maroon Clown, Marine Betta, Six Line Wrasse, Coral Beauty, Domino Damsel, Atlantic Puffer, Asst snail and hermits. 20 Gal Long Reef Nothing yet :)

03/11/2007, 02:52 PM	#2
New_Noob Moved On Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Milwaukee WI Posts: 1,190	its very possible that the damsel had mild ICH at the LFS, and since your tank is cycling that is causeing alot of stress on the fish and allowing the ICH to take over, i would just let your tank cycle then fix the problem, it might be to stressful on the fish to get it out and hospitalize it. Dont use any copper based ICH treatment if you plan on having a reef also.

03/11/2007, 06:49 PM	#11
kau_cinta_ku Moved On Join Date: May 2005 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,669	IMO if your gonna add more LR to the tank that is not cured, just take the damsels back to the LFS for credit and let the tank cycle with the uncured LR, rather then them haviong to go through more ammonia and such again.