Using a Strong Return Pump which Require a Ball Valve, will it hurt the pump?

Vegas_ReefMan · 04/10/2007, 07:49 PM

I am using an Iwaki 100RLT pump which is around 2,000 gph. I have 14' of head, and it still pumps like a fire hose. I have to install a ball valve on it, will it hurt the pump? Where do you install the ball valve, directly screwed onto the out on the pump, or would you add about 1-3 feet of flex hose, and then do the ball valve, and then the check valve and then back to the wavy sea return? I also noticed that the pump has possibly increased my water temp from 78 in my reef to now 81, as the room has remained stable at 74... Thanks again for the help.

Sk8r · 04/10/2007, 08:15 PM

Ditto: I put the ball valve in the hose and use it to throttle down the pump by about 1/3. I'd worry about 1/2 reduction, but I've detected no problem yet---as of one week. Otherwise it will outpace my downflow. Same pump.

Vegas_ReefMan · 04/10/2007, 09:19 PM

I think I will have to back the pump off more than 50% as the pump is a monster. With 14' of head and a dual lifereef overflow at 1400 gph, if I put the pump at more than 35% it will pump out the sump faster than the water comes into the sump with the overflow at its fastest rate with its overflow inflow box as low as it will go in the tank.

sherm71tank · 04/10/2007, 09:22 PM

You should get a different pump. Love the avatar!

bergzy · 04/10/2007, 09:54 PM

guestimating by this chart at 14' of head

it looks like you are still getting about 1620 gph...which would exceed your lifereef 1400gph overflow.

what i have done with oversized return pumps for more than my overflow is to T off the return and have the excess drain back into my sump...i call it a sump closed loop.

this way, you do not have to throttle back the pump and you have good in sump circulation AND you can use the excess one day to power something else...like a chiller, a water wheel to generate electricity or make a waterfall for your dog to play in...suggestions, just suggestions...

tropicalfishguy · 04/10/2007, 10:07 PM

I agree with Bergzy, T off the output pipe and have it run back into the sump. That is how I have mine currently, same prob, pump to powerful for overflow. This way it won't hurt the pump

JCTewks · 04/10/2007, 10:14 PM

I concur...much easier yhan risking your expensive pump...i would put a ball valve on the bl;eeder line going to the sump...that way you are controlling flow with that.

RichConley · 04/10/2007, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bergzy
guestimating by this chart at 14' of head

it looks like you are still getting about 1620 gph...which would exceed your lifereef 1400gph overflow.

what i have done with oversized return pumps for more than my overflow is to T off the return and have the excess drain back into my sump...i call it a sump closed loop.

this way, you do not have to throttle back the pump and you have good in sump circulation AND you can use the excess one day to power something else...like a chiller, a water wheel to generate electricity or make a waterfall for your dog to play in...suggestions, just suggestions...

When you do that, your pump uses more electricity, runs hotter, and doesnt last as long.

While I agree that he should get a smaller pump, using a ball valve is a much better solution than T'ing back to the sump.

JCTewks · 04/10/2007, 11:11 PM

why do you say that rich?? my thinking is that bleeding off some extra flow would be less risky with the pump. Much like bleeding off extra air in a large manifold air system.

how would teeing off your line cause extra electric usage? not trrying to be a pain..just trying to figure this out myself

bergzy · 04/10/2007, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
When you do that, your pump uses more electricity, runs hotter, and doesnt last as long.

While I agree that he should get a smaller pump, using a ball valve is a much better solution than T'ing back to the sump.

i didnt know that T'ing off your pump to your sump uses more power and shortens pump life. i currently use my return pump to power my return and flow through my chiller.

i am not sure how having full free flow with no throttle back shortens pump life, uses more electricty and runs hotter. i always thought that throttling a pump back would make a pump run hotter.

have i been doing this all wrong? should i get an oversized pump and throttle it back so it would run cooler and use less electrcity?

RichConley · 04/11/2007, 11:00 AM

Pumps pull the most energy at free flow. Theyre essentially doing less work when you put head against them. Putting a valve in the line essentially just increases head pressure.

in the case of Iwakis, and the like, theyre designed to work against a certain amount of head pressure. When you go below that, they start drawing even more power, and in most cases, they were never designed to handle that power.

Ting off the return pump to feed a chiller isnt a bad idea becuase you're actually using the flow to do something. Just dumping it back in your sump is a waste of electricity.

As to the buying a bigger pump, and throttling it back, its not always a good idea. Each pump has a flow/backpressure/electricity graph. You want to find the pump where, at the backpressure you have, and the flow you want, is the most efficient.

This isnt a totally linear thing either, A sequence dart draws 160w at freeflow, but right before the shutoff point, its still drawing 130w. A Mag5 on the other hand, draws 50w at freeflow, but may draw as low as 10-15w at the shutoff point.

bstone · 04/11/2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
Pumps pull the most energy at free flow. Theyre essentially doing less work when you put head against them. Putting a valve in the line essentially just increases head pressure.

in the case of Iwakis, and the like, theyre designed to work against a certain amount of head pressure. When you go below that, they start drawing even more power, and in most cases, they were never designed to handle that power.

Ting off the return pump to feed a chiller isnt a bad idea becuase you're actually using the flow to do something. Just dumping it back in your sump is a waste of electricity.

As to the buying a bigger pump, and throttling it back, its not always a good idea. Each pump has a flow/backpressure/electricity graph. You want to find the pump where, at the backpressure you have, and the flow you want, is the most efficient.

This isnt a totally linear thing either, A sequence dart draws 160w at freeflow, but right before the shutoff point, its still drawing 130w. A Mag5 on the other hand, draws 50w at freeflow, but may draw as low as 10-15w at the shutoff point.

RichConley is correct, the more head pressure you add to the pump the less electricity it uses. There is NO problem with adding a ball valve after the pump to reduce flow. But, if you have other equipment, such as a chiller, then run the excess flow over to it. Either way, you do not run a risk of damaging the pump by reducing the flow on the outlet side of the pump with a ball valve.

Vegas_ReefMan · 04/11/2007, 12:04 PM

Thanks guys... The problem is that I already had the sump drilled for the pump. I could T the system and use the additional flow to power something... Although my 50 watt UV requires slow flow so it has its own pump, and my G3 skimmer already has its own pump as well. So i would not know what I could use the excess for... Thanks for helping me guys, and keep the advice coming. I did hear from the guys at Marinedepot.com that I could use the ball valve to throttle the pump without hurting the pump, and that it would draw less power as well and generate less heat when using a ball valve...

04/10/2007, 07:49 PM	#1
Vegas_ReefMan Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 316	Using a Strong Return Pump which Require a Ball Valve, will it hurt the pump? I am using an Iwaki 100RLT pump which is around 2,000 gph. I have 14' of head, and it still pumps like a fire hose. I have to install a ball valve on it, will it hurt the pump? Where do you install the ball valve, directly screwed onto the out on the pump, or would you add about 1-3 feet of flex hose, and then do the ball valve, and then the check valve and then back to the wavy sea return? I also noticed that the pump has possibly increased my water temp from 78 in my reef to now 81, as the room has remained stable at 74... Thanks again for the help.

04/10/2007, 08:15 PM	#2
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Ditto: I put the ball valve in the hose and use it to throttle down the pump by about 1/3. I'd worry about 1/2 reduction, but I've detected no problem yet---as of one week. Otherwise it will outpace my downflow. Same pump. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

04/10/2007, 09:54 PM	#5
bergzy Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: OC CA USA Posts: 5,299	guestimating by this chart at 14' of head it looks like you are still getting about 1620 gph...which would exceed your lifereef 1400gph overflow. what i have done with oversized return pumps for more than my overflow is to T off the return and have the excess drain back into my sump...i call it a sump closed loop. this way, you do not have to throttle back the pump and you have good in sump circulation AND you can use the excess one day to power something else...like a chiller, a water wheel to generate electricity or make a waterfall for your dog to play in...suggestions, just suggestions... __________________ The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule it. H.L. Mencken Ben. Current Tank Info: 180g sps, 90g cube clam biotope.

04/11/2007, 11:00 AM	#11
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	Pumps pull the most energy at free flow. Theyre essentially doing less work when you put head against them. Putting a valve in the line essentially just increases head pressure. in the case of Iwakis, and the like, theyre designed to work against a certain amount of head pressure. When you go below that, they start drawing even more power, and in most cases, they were never designed to handle that power. Ting off the return pump to feed a chiller isnt a bad idea becuase you're actually using the flow to do something. Just dumping it back in your sump is a waste of electricity. As to the buying a bigger pump, and throttling it back, its not always a good idea. Each pump has a flow/backpressure/electricity graph. You want to find the pump where, at the backpressure you have, and the flow you want, is the most efficient. This isnt a totally linear thing either, A sequence dart draws 160w at freeflow, but right before the shutoff point, its still drawing 130w. A Mag5 on the other hand, draws 50w at freeflow, but may draw as low as 10-15w at the shutoff point. __________________ NO TANKS!!!

04/10/2007, 09:19 PM	#3
Vegas_ReefMan Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 316	I think I will have to back the pump off more than 50% as the pump is a monster. With 14' of head and a dual lifereef overflow at 1400 gph, if I put the pump at more than 35% it will pump out the sump faster than the water comes into the sump with the overflow at its fastest rate with its overflow inflow box as low as it will go in the tank.

04/10/2007, 09:22 PM	#4
sherm71tank Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 3,670	You should get a different pump. Love the avatar!

04/10/2007, 10:07 PM	#6
tropicalfishguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ontario Posts: 126	I agree with Bergzy, T off the output pipe and have it run back into the sump. That is how I have mine currently, same prob, pump to powerful for overflow. This way it won't hurt the pump

04/10/2007, 10:14 PM	#7
JCTewks Moved On Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Wilmington, Ohio Posts: 3,040	I concur...much easier yhan risking your expensive pump...i would put a ball valve on the bl;eeder line going to the sump...that way you are controlling flow with that.

04/10/2007, 11:11 PM	#9
JCTewks Moved On Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Wilmington, Ohio Posts: 3,040	why do you say that rich?? my thinking is that bleeding off some extra flow would be less risky with the pump. Much like bleeding off extra air in a large manifold air system. how would teeing off your line cause extra electric usage? not trrying to be a pain..just trying to figure this out myself

04/11/2007, 12:04 PM	#13
Vegas_ReefMan Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 316	Thanks guys... The problem is that I already had the sump drilled for the pump. I could T the system and use the additional flow to power something... Although my 50 watt UV requires slow flow so it has its own pump, and my G3 skimmer already has its own pump as well. So i would not know what I could use the excess for... Thanks for helping me guys, and keep the advice coming. I did hear from the guys at Marinedepot.com that I could use the ball valve to throttle the pump without hurting the pump, and that it would draw less power as well and generate less heat when using a ball valve...