How on earth? High Alk, Low Ca, cant get Ca up

drtechno · 06/21/2007, 10:08 AM

Hi all

I'm running a 20 gal nano at ph 8.3, SG 1.025

I am trying to figure out why I can't bump my Ca up, when everything I've read says I should be okay.

My Ca is reading 300-350 and my Alk is reading 5-5.5 meq/L

My coral load is minimal (small frogspawn, 2 sets of zoas, small acro)

I have been supplementing with appropriate amounts of Kent Marine Nanoreef A+B (5ml total of each) (link to product for description http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+113458) .. I thought this would be okay, but I keep getting low Ca readings. So I have tried supplementing in addition with Kent Marine "Liquid Calcium" but my Ca is still sitting at 300-350.

Bri Guy · 06/21/2007, 10:20 AM

Do you use tap water?

Tap can throw off the readings you would normally get when mixing your salt.

Whats your Magnesium level?

Boomer · 06/21/2007, 10:28 AM

Try a new test kit. The other issue is that really high Alk which is pulling out the Ca++ and the low Ca++ maybe also due to low Mg++.

Make up some fresh salt mix, about a gal. Measure the Ca++, pH, Alk and Mg++ if you have it the next day. Add enough Kent liquid, if needed, to get the Ca++ to 425 ppm or so by using the calculator and retest the sample water and see if it around 425.

Reef chemicals calculator
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

drtechno · 06/21/2007, 10:29 AM

Hi Thanks for the reply

Sorry I left that part out, I am using RODI water (TDS ~0) with Instant Ocean salt mix

Interesting, I haven't check Magnesium since I asssumed I was replenishing it with the Kent (edit: it looks like Magnesium is supplemented by the Kent additive, but I have yet to measure it)

What do you think?

Boomer · 06/21/2007, 10:33 AM

Ah now the info

IO is low in Ca++ about the readings you gave. You need to bump up the batch or your tank to 425 with the Kent Liquid . I would get some Kent Turbo Calcium. Before you start this do a 30 % water change. It is the B part or Alk part of the Kent nano which is raising your Alk so high.

This will aid you

Reef chemicals calculator
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

drtechno · 06/21/2007, 10:40 AM

Hi Boomer,

Thx for the info.. So you are saying since IO is low in Ca I should add Kent Liquid (or similar) to my water change water prior to adding?

Hmm. But I wonder why I haven't been able to raise the Ca between water changes... I'll give it a try.

PS- Pretty cool calculator !

Boomer · 06/21/2007, 11:35 AM

You will not be able to raise it much if the new water is also 340 360 and you need to be at 425 or so. That is a lot.

to my water change water prior to adding?

Yes, that way the Ca++ will be where it is suppose to be for WC, rather than having it low and dumping it in the tank and then trying to raise it there. This way with it up there where it is suppose to be you should be able to use the nano two part Kent and keep it where you want it.

drtechno · 06/21/2007, 11:52 AM

Awesome, thanks so much ! Let me give it a try and report back.

Icefire · 06/21/2007, 10:25 PM

I would test mg level before adding ca+

drtechno · 06/22/2007, 04:59 PM

Ok.. I will grab a Mg test kit

In the meantime, I supplemented Kent Liquid Calcium into my salt water mix, and lo and behold, my Seachem Ca test kit reads no change in the Ca (mg/L) ........

Hmmm.. So what form is liquid Ca in ?

Billybeau1 · 06/22/2007, 08:46 PM

dr, using io, your magnesium level is surely low. As Boomer said your alk is too high causing your calcium problems.

You may try switching to Reef Crystals (made by IO). It has more calcium and magnesium than IO.

If you continue to use IO, you'll need to supplement a more concentrated calcium chloride like Turbo Calcium, Reef Complete or ESV. The 2-parts alone usually don't bump IO up enough.

drtechno · 06/23/2007, 12:45 PM

Ok.. going to see if I can find Turbo Calcium today.. I'll let you know

kmax74 · 06/23/2007, 08:20 PM

I AM HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS ALK IS HIGH CA IS LOW BUT I USE TROPIC MARIN PRO REEF TEST OUT AT ABOUT 450 AFTER MIXED I TRIED LIQUID REACTOR BY KENT BUT DOESENT SEEM TO HELP I USE RODI WATER MY SYSTEM IS 150 TANK WITH A 60 GALLON SUMP WHAT PRODUCT WOULD BE BEST TO USE WITH OUT GOINT TO THE REACTOR MY CORAL LOAD IS LOW BUT I HAVE ABOUT 200 LBS OF LIVE ROCK WITH ALOT OF CORALINE BUILUP ON IT DOES THAT DEPLEET SOME OF THE CALCIUM ( SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS DIDNT RELIZE THEY WERE ON )

bertoni · 06/23/2007, 08:28 PM

This article discusses calcium and alkalinity problems:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

Low calcium usually is best handled with a calcium chloride product, like Kent Turbo Calcium. This calculator will help with a dose:

http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

kmax74 · 06/23/2007, 08:30 PM

thanks

06/21/2007, 10:08 AM	#1
drtechno Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 156	How on earth? High Alk, Low Ca, cant get Ca up Hi all I'm running a 20 gal nano at ph 8.3, SG 1.025 I am trying to figure out why I can't bump my Ca up, when everything I've read says I should be okay. My Ca is reading 300-350 and my Alk is reading 5-5.5 meq/L My coral load is minimal (small frogspawn, 2 sets of zoas, small acro) I have been supplementing with appropriate amounts of Kent Marine Nanoreef A+B (5ml total of each) (link to product for description http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produc...&N=2004+113458) .. I thought this would be okay, but I keep getting low Ca readings. So I have tried supplementing in addition with Kent Marine "Liquid Calcium" but my Ca is still sitting at 300-350.

06/21/2007, 10:20 AM	#2
Bri Guy Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Appleton, Wisconsin Posts: 2,995	Do you use tap water? Tap can throw off the readings you would normally get when mixing your salt. Whats your Magnesium level? __________________ For my birthday i got a humidifier and a de-humidifier... I put them in the same room and let them fight it out. (Steven Wright) Current Tank Info: 40BR w/ 250w 14K Phoenix + 192w PC, 10g fuge w/ 55w PC, 10g sump, Eheim 1250 return w/ SCWD, ASM Mini G skimmer, Gravity fed ATO, Kalk doser, 1/10 HP chiller, 1 Vortec + 3MJs, all on an AC Jr. - Born on date 8-06 Pics in gallery! + 55g FOWLR w/ macro

06/21/2007, 10:29 AM	#4
drtechno Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 156	Hi Thanks for the reply Sorry I left that part out, I am using RODI water (TDS ~0) with Instant Ocean salt mix Interesting, I haven't check Magnesium since I asssumed I was replenishing it with the Kent (edit: it looks like Magnesium is supplemented by the Kent additive, but I have yet to measure it) What do you think? Last edited by drtechno; 06/21/2007 at 10:35 AM.

06/21/2007, 10:33 AM	#5
Boomer Bomb Technician (EOD) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 11,842	Ah now the info IO is low in Ca++ about the readings you gave. You need to bump up the batch or your tank to 425 with the Kent Liquid . I would get some Kent Turbo Calcium. Before you start this do a 30 % water change. It is the B part or Alk part of the Kent nano which is raising your Alk so high. This will aid you Reef chemicals calculator http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html __________________ If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Seawater Chemistry, Geology, ID Marine Life, Collecting Science Books, Explosives Technology, Audiophile An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

06/21/2007, 11:35 AM	#7
Boomer Bomb Technician (EOD) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 11,842	You will not be able to raise it much if the new water is also 340 360 and you need to be at 425 or so. That is a lot. to my water change water prior to adding? Yes, that way the Ca++ will be where it is suppose to be for WC, rather than having it low and dumping it in the tank and then trying to raise it there. This way with it up there where it is suppose to be you should be able to use the nano two part Kent and keep it where you want it. __________________ If you See Me Running You Better Catch-Up Seawater Chemistry, Geology, ID Marine Life, Collecting Science Books, Explosives Technology, Audiophile An explosion can be defined as a loud noise, accompanied by the sudden going away of things, from a place where they use to be.

06/21/2007, 10:28 AM	#3
Boomer Bomb Technician (EOD) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 11,842	Try a new test kit. The other issue is that really high Alk which is pulling out the Ca++ and the low Ca++ maybe also due to low Mg++. Make up some fresh salt mix, about a gal. Measure the Ca++, pH, Alk and Mg++ if you have it the next day. Add enough Kent liquid, if needed, to get the Ca++ to 425 ppm or so by using the calculator and retest the sample water and see if it around 425. Reef chemicals calculator http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

06/21/2007, 10:40 AM	#6
drtechno Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 156	Hi Boomer, Thx for the info.. So you are saying since IO is low in Ca I should add Kent Liquid (or similar) to my water change water prior to adding? Hmm. But I wonder why I haven't been able to raise the Ca between water changes... I'll give it a try. PS- Pretty cool calculator !

06/21/2007, 11:52 AM	#8
drtechno Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 156	Awesome, thanks so much ! Let me give it a try and report back.

06/21/2007, 10:25 PM	#9
Icefire Seasoned reefer Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: In Quebec, Canada Posts: 3,653	I would test mg level before adding ca+ __________________ Temp 80F, PH 8.5-8.0, Alk 6.8-7.2, Ca 430, Mg 1700, NO3 0-0.25, PO4 0.04, 34.4 PPT Lights @ 100% all others, 35% White Current Tank Info: 60g Cube, 120lbs live rocks, Hydra52 2x120W, 2 MP40+ 1 MP10 @ 70%, Phosban 550 GFO+Carbon, 200W Heater, SWC Skimmer, Kalk ATO, 150 gpd RODI

06/22/2007, 04:59 PM	#10
drtechno Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 156	Ok.. I will grab a Mg test kit In the meantime, I supplemented Kent Liquid Calcium into my salt water mix, and lo and behold, my Seachem Ca test kit reads no change in the Ca (mg/L) ........ Hmmm.. So what form is liquid Ca in ?

06/22/2007, 08:46 PM	#11
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	dr, using io, your magnesium level is surely low. As Boomer said your alk is too high causing your calcium problems. You may try switching to Reef Crystals (made by IO). It has more calcium and magnesium than IO. If you continue to use IO, you'll need to supplement a more concentrated calcium chloride like Turbo Calcium, Reef Complete or ESV. The 2-parts alone usually don't bump IO up enough.

06/23/2007, 12:45 PM	#12
drtechno Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 156	Ok.. going to see if I can find Turbo Calcium today.. I'll let you know

06/23/2007, 08:20 PM	#13
kmax74 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: california Posts: 398	I AM HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS ALK IS HIGH CA IS LOW BUT I USE TROPIC MARIN PRO REEF TEST OUT AT ABOUT 450 AFTER MIXED I TRIED LIQUID REACTOR BY KENT BUT DOESENT SEEM TO HELP I USE RODI WATER MY SYSTEM IS 150 TANK WITH A 60 GALLON SUMP WHAT PRODUCT WOULD BE BEST TO USE WITH OUT GOINT TO THE REACTOR MY CORAL LOAD IS LOW BUT I HAVE ABOUT 200 LBS OF LIVE ROCK WITH ALOT OF CORALINE BUILUP ON IT DOES THAT DEPLEET SOME OF THE CALCIUM ( SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS DIDNT RELIZE THEY WERE ON )

06/23/2007, 08:28 PM	#14
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	This article discusses calcium and alkalinity problems: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm Low calcium usually is best handled with a calcium chloride product, like Kent Turbo Calcium. This calculator will help with a dose: http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

06/23/2007, 08:30 PM	#15
kmax74 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: california Posts: 398	thanks