Frustreated Beginner, please help :(

[clockwurk]

Im a little annoyed with LFS. Im very new to reef keeping, and for the last month, I have been getting so many different point of views on how to go about starting my tank, that my experience so far has been more worrisome than anything else.

My setup is as follows...

24G JBJ ( that has 2 x 326 watt 50/50 )
20 lbs of live rock
20 lbs of live sand
The water initially was dechlorinated tap water but now I am switching to RO.

A week into my cycle, I visited a LFS during my lunch break and I was told to buy some bacteria to speed up the cycle. I understand the way the nitrogen cycle in the basic ways and what he was saying seemed very logical...

So I bought it.

I tested for the next 3 days and it didnt do squat.
But, I didnt mind so much... I didnt mind waiting... but...

I visited another LFS and they told me that I was robbed and that never buy bacteria unless its refrigirated. "Bacteria will die if it has nothing to eat, and keeping them cold keeps them in stasis and ALIVE...In 2-3 days, youll be ready to buy fish".

Made sense to me...
so, I bought Turbo Start.

2 days later, after about 2 weeks in cycle, my tank conditions were PERFECT.
No ammonia, no nitrite and some nitrate.
I did a water change and bought some fish...
2 clowns and a firefish.
Everything was cool so far.
I went to another LFS, and they informed me on how bad Turbo Start was for my tank...and how Turbo Start bacteria will work initially because it will eat all the ammonia and nitrite, but then after a week, all turbo start bacteria will die even if there is food present. And since my real aquarium bacteria was essentially starved during this week... they are dead as well.

The conversation ended up where he suggested to start my tank over completely.

?????
Is this true?
Is turbo Start that bad? Will it die in one week?
Are my natural bacterias dead?
Will my system crash???

This experiences have left such a bad taste in my mouth. I bought an aquarium so that I can have something to do and learn about, and to have something peaceful to watch and enjoy. But like I said before, its just been an array of confusion and fear.

I signed up for this forum in hopes that I can get some real direction. If anyone can help me, would really appreciate it. It seems that many of you have a great time with this hobby and I hope sometime soon, I can enjoy the same. Thank you all in advance.

[Grins]

The bad news is that you've had a rough start. The good news is that you're now trying to rectify that by asking for advice outside your LFS. Although there are good employees and good LFSs there are also not so great ones and getting advice from someone not trying to sell you something is a good idea.

Did you ever have a cycle? You say your numbers were 0 but did you ever see an ammonia spike? I personally would have skipped the "fast start additives" good things just don't happen fast in this hobby.

If you had a quick cycle due to seasoned cured live rock you may have been ready in as early as 2 weeks but I'd personally not have stocked anything until I saw a cycle and it had been at least 4 weeks.

Give us the current water parameters for ALL your test kits as well as any other tank specs you didn't list above and perhaps we can point you in the right direction. In the meantime you'll also be well served by reading the New to the Hobby sticky post at the top of this forum.

One last note, check into a local reef club, members are a great source of information including where to buy locally.

[poppin_fresh]

Ugggghhh! It sounds like you're having a rough time getting going. Its too bad that you have 2 stores having a battle and putting you in the middle.

The long and short of it is that your tank is probably fine. If your fish are still alive and you water tests ok, you are moving in the right direction. The only thing you need to watch out for is ammonia. Nitrite and Nitrate are not harmful to fish even in moderate levels so they are not as much a consern.

I think you have learned a valuable lesson here. Just because it comes in a bottle, with a nice sounding label and someone recommends it, doesn't mean you NEED to buy it. I would see if there is a reef club near you and see what stores those members recommend.

[Duff Man]

I'm not familiar with Turbo Start. But you will see many people say "only bad things happen quickly" in this hobby. Not trying to flame, but miracle juices aren't as good as letting your tank cycle naturally.

[poppin_fresh]

Hehe... Grins beat me to it!

[t5Nitro]

I really wouldn't listen to a LFS, some are good as stated above, but RC is where you should ask your questions. I wouldn't use the fast start cycle stuff. I don't know if it works or not because I have never used it, I don't like to dose things in the tank that aren't needed.

It sounds like you already have the three fish. Three fish at one time may a lot all at once, just keep watching the ammonia/nitrite/nitrates good and don't let ammonia/nitrite go above 0. If it starts to, water change asap. I think activated carbon actually helps with ammonia along with nitrates if you have one of those filter chambers in the 24g (put the activated carbon in a filter sock if you decide to use it, it also clears the water up nicely).

Watch the water parameters and water change as needed. I don't think you would really have much of any cycle starting with LS and LR either.

[CarmieJo]

Hi clockwurk,

There are lots of good LFS but there are others that are not so good. Forums are good places for advice but make sure that there is some agreement in the community before taking the advice of one post.

I too shun the fast start additives. I guess that they can work but why? IMO it is really better to just let nature take its course. Since I've never used them I can't say if they will die off or not. Did you have ammonia and nitrite in the tank before you added them? Here is a podcast on cycling http://podcast.talkingreef.com/audio...ng-TR-Ep50.mp3 that you might like to listen to. If you don't have an mp3 player you can download iTunes (for free) and listen on your computer.

I am a bit concerned that you added 3 fish all at once to a brand new NanoCube 24. Even if you have some nitrifying bacteria established this could cause an ammonia spike and stress the fish. I'd suggest that you monitor it closely and be prepared to do water changes if necessary to keep it down.

I don't think that you need to start your tank over again.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally posted by clockwurk


A week into my cycle, I visited a LFS during my lunch break and I was told to buy some bacteria to speed up the cycle. I understand the way the nitrogen cycle in the basic ways and what he was saying seemed very logical...

So I bought it.

I tested for the next 3 days and it didnt do squat.
But, I didnt mind so much... I didnt mind waiting... but...

I visited another LFS and they told me that I was robbed and that never buy bacteria unless its refrigirated. "Bacteria will die if it has nothing to eat, and keeping them cold keeps them in stasis and ALIVE...In 2-3 days, youll be ready to buy fish".

Made sense to me...
so, I bought Turbo Start.

2 days later, after about 2 weeks in cycle, my tank conditions were PERFECT.
No ammonia, no nitrite and some nitrate.
I did a water change and bought some fish...

Adding some bacteria, the quantity of bacteria seed, is not critical but indeed if your medium has significant amount of nitrification bacteria to start with the cycling period is reduced.

Nitrification bacteria do not die quickly due to lack of ammonia or nitrite. Eventually they would die due to lack of ammonia or nitrite, but there is a wide window of time, at least three weeks.

The cycling process is indeed very simple. One needs:

1. Seed of bacteria. One can get a small amount from a healthy established tank's biological filter, water that come with unvalued livestock, even moist garden soil if the salinity is brought up slowly.

2. gaseous exchange and circulation.

3. medium or substrate for the bacteria to grow

4. ample source of ammonia with sufficient accumulation of ammonia for long enough time.

-------------------------------

It is unlikely that cycling takes only two weeks; chances are that cycling has not started in your tank. There has never been enough accumulation of ammonia for long enough time for nitrosonomas bacteria to multiply in high numbers.

Did you observe a strong nitrite peak? If not, cycling really has not started.

[Saltwater_Dog]

Everyone, when new to this, wants to hurry up and get things rolling. Most learn the hardway and then realize that waiting is the key to this hobby. Let the cycle pass on its own. All those products are LFS way of getting your money.

[jayvee10]

You Just have to take it slowly. Nothing good happens when you act too fast. It will be better just let your tank cycle. You are on the right track on asking questions, by asking it here on RC. WELCOME.

[drummereef]

clockwurk,



To Reef Central

[tmz]

Patience may be the hardest thing to learn about this hobby but it is critical to your success wether it's about starting a tank ,quarantining a new specimen,waiting a bit on an algae bloom or waitng to buy a specimen untill it's been surviving post shipping for a while.

[clockwurk]

WOW. Thank you all so much for the support. I didnt think I would get so many answers.

Well, so far so good. My tank, has not crashed or done anything bad as far as I can tell.
Im just keeping my eye on it as much as I can, trying to do RO water changes every 3 days or so.

My parameters are:
0 for Ammonia and Nitrite,
10 for Nitrate
0 for Phosphate
450 Calcium
and 12 dkh for my Alkalinity...

SOmething I dont get though, my PH is at 7.8-8.0
I tried a buffer and I guess Ill give it more time to work and see, but I dont get why my PH is so low.

Also, yes, my cycle did happen. My ammonia and nitrite did spike...
everything looked fine, Im just worried about this impending crash my LFS is talking about because I used turbo start.

Again, THANK YOU ALL

[mr_o98]

Welcome to RC. If you have any other newbie questions do not hesitate to ask. We were all newbies once, and even the experienced hobbyists are still learning.

[tmz]

Your ph may indicate some bacterial die off (the turbo crash) as they exhoust food supply with excess co2. With calcium at 450 and dkh at 12 it should be higher unless co2 is dropping it.Are you confident in your calcium and alk tests. Could they be higher and precipitating? Is your water cloudy? What about your ph test/moniotor accuracy? Be sure of these things before tweaking your chemistry. Let your tank settle down for a week or so. Retest and evaluate your options for next steps.
Good Luck

[serum153]

Make sure you have some powerheads creating a nice flow at the surface and open up a window. The fresh air will raise your ph a little bit.

Make sure that your LFS doesn't try and convince you that you can add more fish. I would say you are pretty close to maxed out, so I hope those were the fish you wanted the most...imo

[markandkristen]

my ph stays around what yours is ..
i have found in the 3years of exp that ph can be affected by the co2 in the room .. in my case i have a small apartment. and when i open a window it will get to 8.2 in a couple of hours. those bacteria starters in my opinion do help. i have used them after i dosed meds. it helped bring the bacteria back in check

[dismayed]

I don't think I'd restart your tank, I'd wait and see what happens at this point. All those fish you added are going to produce a lot of nitrates, amonias, and other things as they 'go to the bathroom' in your tank. If there isn't enough good bacteria in your tank they may not survive, but I'm guessing they will probably start the chain reaction of the nitrogen cycle.

Some people will actually cycle by putting a damsel in their new tank. I personally find that inhumane, but it does work. Something I tried to speed things up was putting a small piece of frozen cocktail shrimp (yep, from a grocery store) in the tank. As it begins to rot away it will start the nitrogen cycle in your tank. So if you eventually do need to start over, you might try that.

At one point I had the same problem with chronically low PH levels. Folks on the forums suggested I buy a powerhead (more or less a little pump that just adds some disturbance to the water) and point it towards the top of the aquarium. They also suggested that since I had a sealed hood on my tank that I open it a few days a week and open a door/window near the tank and let fresh air flow around the tank. This is because CO2 can build up in the tank and it will artificially keep your PH levels low. After about a week of doing this my PH levels bounced up and are now consistently 8.3-8.4. 7.8 is kind of low but even that is not necessarily bad. I have a friend with a tank he has had for years and years and he has always suffered from low PH. The main thing is to not change things quickly, that can cause more problems than just leaving your levels low/high.

Personally I would really *not* add any Reef Buffer or anything like that to your tank in an attempt to raise your PH levels. At one point when I had the problem I mentioned above I put quite a lot of Reef Buffer in my tank and it did absolutely nothing. Then when I found out that I had a CO2 problem and corrected that, the PH levels way over-corrected but eventually fell to normal levels. Try the C02 trick first, then if that doesn't work maybe consider adding some Reef Buffer a little at a time.

I'd just be patient and see how things go. Do a lot of reading on this site and buy a few books on marine aquariums. I've found that marine people today are a lot like how computer people were in the 80s and 90s -- everyone has an opinion and many think their way is the only way that works. It can be frustrating. Talk to people, find out what they are doing, find someone whose methods you like and do exactly what they do. Good luck!

[tmz]

If you do get nitrite or ammonia during the settle in process you can try some carbon and one of the resin products such as poly pad . during this phase when you are not certain wether or not your bacteria are up to speed for the load. I urge you to test for nitrite and ammonia frequently. Worry about nitrate later . The first two are toxic to yur fish . The nitrate while it will feed nuisance algae is much less of an immediate threat.