New 10 gal cycling question

denis1946 · 07/30/2007, 08:25 PM

Hi there,

i'm cycling my new 10gal nano tank.

I did an Aquaclear refugium mod and now has fragments of LR on the buttom and some macro (i think) over the LR. I say "i think" 'cause the guy at the store gave it to me, told me that was good for taking out nitrates. It is an AC 300 / 70 with an AC MINI / 20 impellor.

I've set up my tank with pre-mixed (24 hours) new RO/DI water and IO reef salt.

Now it's been 5 days running with 10 pounds of cured (it was that way at the store) LR in the tank, the AC mini refugium running, 280 GPH total powerheads running. 3 days ago i added a product to help cycle the tank because i couln't see it cycling with all my tests.

Today amonia is at 0, nitrites at 0.....but nitrates at around 15. I've i missed something?

The tank's glasses are all full of tiny white creatures (pods?) walking on it.

Should i leave it that way or should i add more stuff to cycle it more?

Newbe in nano world with a 1 year old 55 reef tank doing good.

Thanks for your time.

Denis

Randall_James · 07/30/2007, 08:40 PM

Cured liverock can virtually eliminate the "typical" cycle. If you are showing nitrates, you are probably already cycled. I would still add a touch of fish food and give it another week or so all the same. The longer you wait to add fish, the better off you are going to be.

Nano tanks are especially sensitive to introducing fish too fast. If you can wait, the small life will have a better chance of getting established and survive the addition of fish. (months are better than weeks)

What you are seeing are likely copepods.

markandkristen · 07/30/2007, 08:48 PM

Ditto as well

denis1946 · 07/30/2007, 08:59 PM

Should i go with flakes or frozen shimps (i have brine and mysis here) ?

I know it's too early to add anything in there. I'm searching here infos about what types of lighting to put over the nano.

There's only 2 snails that came with the LR.

Thanks.

Denis

smcdonn · 07/30/2007, 09:21 PM

Just throw some brine shrimp in there. Just like everybody else said, if you bought fully cured rock, there is virtually no cycle. Although it is still a good idea to let it settle for a while to make sure everything is stable. Lets see some pics!!!

denis1946 · 07/31/2007, 10:58 AM

Posting pictures soon my friends.

der_wille_zur_macht · 07/31/2007, 11:58 AM

The "cycle" is a myth! No, really. IMHO, it's one of the biggest lies in the hobby, something we put up with partially out of tradition and partially because it can be a good learning tool. In no way is it essential or required for establishing a new tank. Now, before anyone runs out and dumps 4 tangs in a minty-new 30g tank, please read the whole post:

You've discovered one of the secrets of reef keeping. If you start a new tank by putting together biological components (macro algae, live rock, etc) that came from existing, stable systems, there's no such thing as a cycle.

Cycling happens when an aquarium system is subject to a much higher biological load than it can handle. Of course, a system's ability to handle biological load is defined by the nutrient conversion tools it has in place (think: nitrifying bacteria) and by the nutrient export tools it has in place (think: skimming, macro algae in a 'fuge, etc.). If a system's nutrient conversion and export tools aren't up to the load the system is subject to, a cycle happens to "balance the books" and get things in sync. Tiny cycles happen every day in our tank as the biological load fluctuates. Huge cycles can spell disaster for livestock, which is why we complete the traditional cycle process before adding sensitive livestock to the tank.

Where does that load or biological demand come from? Does it come from the fish we put in? Sort of. If you throw a fish in but never feed it, the only time it'll really impact the biological load will be when it dies. Similarly, if you put in livestock that don't really require feeding (some corals, etc) then they won't really impact the biological load. The load happens when nutrients are added to the system - either by feeding your fish, or something dying, etc.

Hence, if you build a new system without any real biological load, but with a decent sized population of nitrifying bacteria, you won't see a cycle - because the system's capacity outweighs the demand placed on it. This is probably the case in your tank, because you used truly cured live rock and macro algae that were probably teeming with good bacteria, but weren't covered in dead or decaying life.

However, if you build that new system by adding components that have a large and instant biological load (die-off on fresh live rock, cocktail shrimp, etc), then you WILL see a traditional cycle, as the system establishes the bacterial base to deal with the immediate load. This is what most people talk about when they say "cycling" a tank - creating a HUGE load - huge at least relative to the tank's capacity - then sitting around for a month or two while the tank plays catch-up.

IMHO, the traditional cycling process is great for newcomers, since it forces them to put the brakes on and really get used to a tank before adding anything that could die on them. Hopefully, if you've read this post and understood it, you'll understand why the process is not really necessary.

Simply put, if your tank has the tools to handle the biological demands you are going to place on it, there is absolutely no need to go through a traditional cycle process. However, if it doesn't have the tools to handle that load, the cycle process is one way to help establish those tools.

I could write more about why I think traditional cycles are harmful to our tanks in the long term, but that would really ruffle feathers, so I'll wait for another opportunity.

Oh, another subject that deserves additional discussion is the difference between so-called "cured" live rock that really isn't, and REAL cured live rock. Hint: If it comes to you in the mail or from a big dirty mucky holding tank at the LFS, it is NOT fully cured! No matter what the people selling it might claim!

LockeOak · 07/31/2007, 12:59 PM

I generally agree with der_wille_zur_macht, your live rock probably had little to no dead material on it and lots of nitrifying bacteria already present, which handily took care of any nitrogen compounds that were introduced. The macro will also absorb a bit. I'm running a similar tank, 10G with aquaclear refugium and 15lb LR. I never detected more than 5ppm nitrates. Although I think your tank is probably cycled or pretty close to it, still take it slow. A great thing at this point of the tank's life is to look at all the little hitchhiking critters that are easiest to see before it's full of corals and fish. I'm pretty entertained by just the worms and amphipods and starfish and all the little things that come in on the rock.

denis1946 · 07/31/2007, 01:09 PM

Humm interesting. I though the same but since it's early in the starting stage, i've dropped a dozen brine shimp in there just to see what's gonna happen.

I've done my tests again this morning, not all of them :

- Amonia : 0
- Nitrites : 0
- Nitrates : 5
- Ph : 8.1
- Temps 80
- Salt : 1.024

And let me tell ya, the water is cristal clear. I'm seeing a lot of pods walking on the sides of the tank. That will be one fun fragging tank.

What do you guys suggest me as far as lighting for this tank?

I'm thinking 2X24 W T5 HO / single reflector (Hagen Glo-something....)

I'm only into soft corals..........for the moment.

Denis

der_wille_zur_macht · 07/31/2007, 01:21 PM

Decide what corals you *might* want to keep beyond the softies you are in to now, that'll change your decision.

At any rate, if you are going to use T5's, make sure you get efficient reflectors, i.e. a parabolic shape for each individual bulb. Otherwise, you're missing the whole advantage of T5HO and might as well use a cheaper form of fluorescent lights.

Personally, if I were doing a 10g tank, I'd be tempted to try one of those spotlight-style 70w MH pendants.

denis1946 · 07/31/2007, 03:12 PM

tempting but i would still be in need for acnitics, right?

If so that would bring the bill up there.

I guess i'll check the T5's with my budget.

Denis

der_wille_zur_macht · 08/01/2007, 07:09 AM

Get the right bulb color on the MH and it's all you need. Some of the higher K bulbs have spikes in all the same regions as actinic tubes. It really boils down to personal preference.

Half the reason I'd go with one of the pendant style MH rigs would be to have an open-top tank. In that size range, it would be really cheap to get a super-awesome rimless tank made, which would look pretty impressive if pulled off correctly. I suppose this would only be attractive if you like the whole rimless minimalist look, though.

denis1946 · 08/01/2007, 09:12 AM

Wanted to post pics..........to complicated.

I'll check it out later

denis1946 · 08/01/2007, 09:13 AM

PDF link not working...

der_wille_zur_macht · 08/01/2007, 09:15 AM

Do you have the photo in another format - such as jpg? If so, you can upload it to photobucket or another free photo sharing site and link it here.

07/30/2007, 08:25 PM	#1
denis1946 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 39	New 10 gal cycling question Hi there, i'm cycling my new 10gal nano tank. I did an Aquaclear refugium mod and now has fragments of LR on the buttom and some macro (i think) over the LR. I say "i think" 'cause the guy at the store gave it to me, told me that was good for taking out nitrates. It is an AC 300 / 70 with an AC MINI / 20 impellor. I've set up my tank with pre-mixed (24 hours) new RO/DI water and IO reef salt. Now it's been 5 days running with 10 pounds of cured (it was that way at the store) LR in the tank, the AC mini refugium running, 280 GPH total powerheads running. 3 days ago i added a product to help cycle the tank because i couln't see it cycling with all my tests. Today amonia is at 0, nitrites at 0.....but nitrates at around 15. I've i missed something? The tank's glasses are all full of tiny white creatures (pods?) walking on it. Should i leave it that way or should i add more stuff to cycle it more? Newbe in nano world with a 1 year old 55 reef tank doing good. Thanks for your time. Denis

07/30/2007, 08:40 PM	#2
Randall_James Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,727	Cured liverock can virtually eliminate the "typical" cycle. If you are showing nitrates, you are probably already cycled. I would still add a touch of fish food and give it another week or so all the same. The longer you wait to add fish, the better off you are going to be. Nano tanks are especially sensitive to introducing fish too fast. If you can wait, the small life will have a better chance of getting established and survive the addition of fish. (months are better than weeks) What you are seeing are likely copepods. __________________ "It's a dog eat dog world and I feel like I am wearing milkbone underwear"

07/30/2007, 09:21 PM	#5
smcdonn Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Fayetteville, AR Posts: 925	Just throw some brine shrimp in there. Just like everybody else said, if you bought fully cured rock, there is virtually no cycle. Although it is still a good idea to let it settle for a while to make sure everything is stable. Lets see some pics!!! __________________ 180g IN WALL, REEF Current Tank Info: 180 gallon

07/31/2007, 11:58 AM	#7
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	The "cycle" is a myth! No, really. IMHO, it's one of the biggest lies in the hobby, something we put up with partially out of tradition and partially because it can be a good learning tool. In no way is it essential or required for establishing a new tank. Now, before anyone runs out and dumps 4 tangs in a minty-new 30g tank, please read the whole post: You've discovered one of the secrets of reef keeping. If you start a new tank by putting together biological components (macro algae, live rock, etc) that came from existing, stable systems, there's no such thing as a cycle. Cycling happens when an aquarium system is subject to a much higher biological load than it can handle. Of course, a system's ability to handle biological load is defined by the nutrient conversion tools it has in place (think: nitrifying bacteria) and by the nutrient export tools it has in place (think: skimming, macro algae in a 'fuge, etc.). If a system's nutrient conversion and export tools aren't up to the load the system is subject to, a cycle happens to "balance the books" and get things in sync. Tiny cycles happen every day in our tank as the biological load fluctuates. Huge cycles can spell disaster for livestock, which is why we complete the traditional cycle process before adding sensitive livestock to the tank. Where does that load or biological demand come from? Does it come from the fish we put in? Sort of. If you throw a fish in but never feed it, the only time it'll really impact the biological load will be when it dies. Similarly, if you put in livestock that don't really require feeding (some corals, etc) then they won't really impact the biological load. The load happens when nutrients are added to the system - either by feeding your fish, or something dying, etc. Hence, if you build a new system without any real biological load, but with a decent sized population of nitrifying bacteria, you won't see a cycle - because the system's capacity outweighs the demand placed on it. This is probably the case in your tank, because you used truly cured live rock and macro algae that were probably teeming with good bacteria, but weren't covered in dead or decaying life. However, if you build that new system by adding components that have a large and instant biological load (die-off on fresh live rock, cocktail shrimp, etc), then you WILL see a traditional cycle, as the system establishes the bacterial base to deal with the immediate load. This is what most people talk about when they say "cycling" a tank - creating a HUGE load - huge at least relative to the tank's capacity - then sitting around for a month or two while the tank plays catch-up. IMHO, the traditional cycling process is great for newcomers, since it forces them to put the brakes on and really get used to a tank before adding anything that could die on them. Hopefully, if you've read this post and understood it, you'll understand why the process is not really necessary. Simply put, if your tank has the tools to handle the biological demands you are going to place on it, there is absolutely no need to go through a traditional cycle process. However, if it doesn't have the tools to handle that load, the cycle process is one way to help establish those tools. I could write more about why I think traditional cycles are harmful to our tanks in the long term, but that would really ruffle feathers, so I'll wait for another opportunity. Oh, another subject that deserves additional discussion is the difference between so-called "cured" live rock that really isn't, and REAL cured live rock. Hint: If it comes to you in the mail or from a big dirty mucky holding tank at the LFS, it is NOT fully cured! No matter what the people selling it might claim! __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

07/31/2007, 01:21 PM	#10
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Decide what corals you might want to keep beyond the softies you are in to now, that'll change your decision. At any rate, if you are going to use T5's, make sure you get efficient reflectors, i.e. a parabolic shape for each individual bulb. Otherwise, you're missing the whole advantage of T5HO and might as well use a cheaper form of fluorescent lights. Personally, if I were doing a 10g tank, I'd be tempted to try one of those spotlight-style 70w MH pendants. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

07/30/2007, 08:48 PM	#3
markandkristen Moved On Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Winterhaven, fl Posts: 4,081	Ditto as well

07/30/2007, 08:59 PM	#4
denis1946 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 39	Should i go with flakes or frozen shimps (i have brine and mysis here) ? I know it's too early to add anything in there. I'm searching here infos about what types of lighting to put over the nano. There's only 2 snails that came with the LR. Thanks. Denis

07/31/2007, 10:58 AM	#6
denis1946 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 39	Posting pictures soon my friends.

07/31/2007, 12:59 PM	#8
LockeOak Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 839	I generally agree with der_wille_zur_macht, your live rock probably had little to no dead material on it and lots of nitrifying bacteria already present, which handily took care of any nitrogen compounds that were introduced. The macro will also absorb a bit. I'm running a similar tank, 10G with aquaclear refugium and 15lb LR. I never detected more than 5ppm nitrates. Although I think your tank is probably cycled or pretty close to it, still take it slow. A great thing at this point of the tank's life is to look at all the little hitchhiking critters that are easiest to see before it's full of corals and fish. I'm pretty entertained by just the worms and amphipods and starfish and all the little things that come in on the rock.

07/31/2007, 01:09 PM	#9
denis1946 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 39	Humm interesting. I though the same but since it's early in the starting stage, i've dropped a dozen brine shimp in there just to see what's gonna happen. I've done my tests again this morning, not all of them : - Amonia : 0 - Nitrites : 0 - Nitrates : 5 - Ph : 8.1 - Temps 80 - Salt : 1.024 And let me tell ya, the water is cristal clear. I'm seeing a lot of pods walking on the sides of the tank. That will be one fun fragging tank. What do you guys suggest me as far as lighting for this tank? I'm thinking 2X24 W T5 HO / single reflector (Hagen Glo-something....) I'm only into soft corals..........for the moment. Denis

07/31/2007, 03:12 PM	#11
denis1946 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 39	tempting but i would still be in need for acnitics, right? If so that would bring the bill up there. I guess i'll check the T5's with my budget. Denis

08/01/2007, 07:09 AM	#12
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Get the right bulb color on the MH and it's all you need. Some of the higher K bulbs have spikes in all the same regions as actinic tubes. It really boils down to personal preference. Half the reason I'd go with one of the pendant style MH rigs would be to have an open-top tank. In that size range, it would be really cheap to get a super-awesome rimless tank made, which would look pretty impressive if pulled off correctly. I suppose this would only be attractive if you like the whole rimless minimalist look, though. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)

08/01/2007, 09:13 AM	#14
denis1946 Moved On Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 39	PDF link not working...

08/01/2007, 09:15 AM	#15
der_wille_zur_macht Team RC Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: NY Posts: 17,749	Do you have the photo in another format - such as jpg? If so, you can upload it to photobucket or another free photo sharing site and link it here. __________________ Inconveniencing marine life since 1992 "It is my personal belief that reef aquaria should be thriving communities of biodiversity, representative of their wild counterparts, and not merely collections of pretty specimens growing on tidy clean rock shelves covered in purple coralline algae." (Eric Borneman)