Things dying, need some help

[gburton]

Yesterday I added an arrow crab, a sallylite foot crab, and an emerald crab along with about 10 turbo snails to my tank which already has 2 clowns, 1 watch gobbie, 1 emerald crab, and numerous hermit crabs and a few narsarius snails and turbo snails. Last night the sallylite foot crab was acting kind of crazy standing on its back legs trying to stand up and scratching at the glass. This morning she was DEAD. We have noticed in the last few weeks that a lot of the turbo snails in our tank where empty shells and the algea on the back wall was increasing which they normally eat. Yesterday I had the LFS test our water and everything was 0, SG is 1.025, pH is 8.2. To back up a little, we started out in the beginning (February) with two peppemint shrimp that lasted about 2-3 months before death, the 2 clown fish that have been going strong, then 2 emerald crabs, one of which died after a couple of days, the other we still have, then 6 chromis, 4 of which died in the QT tank within the 2 weeks they were there and the other 2 in the main tank within 2 days of being in there. We then got 2 watch gobbies, one of which died in the first day of being in the main tank, the other is still going strong, 1 purple/yellow lobster(which I can't remember the name) which only hid and we believe is now dead, and now the sallylite foot. I clean the filters and protein skimmer every six days, 8 gallon water change every 2-3 weeks, and check the water chemistry for SG, pH, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates every six days too. Since February when we started the tank, chemistry has been at zero, SG 1.025, pH 7.8-8.2. I have no idea what is going on with our tank. LDS said chromis probably had disease to begin with, but I am thinking shrimp and others should be lasting a lot longer. My wife is getting very frustrated with spending $ and things dying. Any suggestions or ideas would be really appreciated. I will look back at responses throughout tonight and tomorrow too. Thanks in advance. Gregg

[haydenholgate]

test for copper sounds like a copper problem.

[reefnetworth]

your LFS admitted he sold you a fish that was "probably diseased to begin with"?
i would change LFS after i received compensation for all the other dead stuff ("probably diseased") he sold you.
if their are signs of ick or any other disease on the chromis it will spread throughout the fish, tank, filters, hoses, LR, LS, etc.
i agree with the other inhabitants lifespan also. it should not effect them that fast.
are you putting the LFS water into your tank? he may be using copper to rid his fish of disease that he is selling.
last but not least, what kind of water are you using? its not listed in your "Current Tanks" if you have an RO/DI or just plain ole tap with a dechlor?
if you have an RO/DI do you have TDS meter? and when was the last time you changed the cartridges?
i would strongly suggest to fallow "haydenholgate" and get a copper kit today!!!
best of luck and dont give up!

[Rockhead21564]

Also, nice of him to sell you an arrow crab, it'll eat all of your snails and then hunt down whatever else he can find. Bring him back and ask for a refund, bad LFS in MO

[azocean]

My arrow crab has never tryed to eat my snails they all have diffrent attitudes in diffrent tanks. It sound like copper but if your tank is new you will see a lot of die off if the tank has not been totally established. When I first started I had the same problem most people do. But if you do not establish your tank there will be plenty of wasted money but I would not buy from that LFS again.

[rkelman]

I agree it sounds like copper. There is something available to help absorb the copper if that is it. I'm not sure if you use carbon or a phosphate sponge material. Maybe someone else will chime in on that. I think everyone's tank has alot of dieoff at the start. Chromis kill each other regularly. I don't know what other peoples experience but I can't seem to keep emerald or sally lightfoot crabs very long either. And turbos well.. I've found I get about 25% dieoff at least. How are you acclimating? Maybe that has something to do with it.

[gburton]

Thanks for the replies. I am using RO/DI water. I have been using the same filters, they were new since about Jan. of this year. I am not sure how long the filters last, I haden't thought about that yet. Any idea on life span of the filters? I didn't see any signs of ick, nor do I see any now. The other fish and crabs that we still have seem to be thriving. As far as the arrow crab, he doesn't seem too aggressive until we feed and then he likes to make sure he gets his fair share but then seems pretty mellow. As far as the tank being established, I started it around Christmas of 06, went through the cycle with live rock, etc. and added the first critters in feb. that being the two peppermint shrimp which lasted until June. I added the two clowns after them and they are still going strong too. It seems that all fish and critters either die in the first two days, die after a couple of months, or are alive and well. I am going to check my RO/DI water with my tds and get a copper kit. More info would still be appreciated, thanks for all the info so far. This truely is a great site with all the help a person can get.

[gburton]

Sorry reklman, I didn't answer a couple of questins. I am using a carbon filter where my water drains into the sump. I am also using the thicker white filter after that in the sump to quiet the water hitting in the sump. I clean or change these every six days. As far as acclimating goes, I put the fish into the QT tank for two weeks then the main tank. The crabs and others I put into the main tank from the start. I do so by sitting there bag in the tank water for 15 min. then adding some of the main tank water to their bag for 15 min. then add them to the main tank. I make sure I don't add any of their water to the main tank. The thing I really dislike about the fish store is it is mostly all young, new people working there and every time I ask a question they never seem to actually know the answer. I rely on the main fish guy but he is always so busy trying to keep up on all his duties. I have thought about buying fish online but I am not sure they would fare any better with the air travel and all.

[gburton]

bump

[Sk8r]

Get the following test kits: refractometer; alkalinity; ph meter; nitrate/ammonia strips; good second thermometer.
These would be good middle of the road readings: salinity 1.025; alk 8.3-9.3; ph 7.9-8.3; nitrate .5 or less; ammonia 0. Temp ca 80, nothing much higher or lower, ever.

Trying to keep your tank by running to the lfs for a test is like steering your car from the back seat.

Make sure the salinity matches to .001 when putting inverts from their bag to your tank. If a mismatch, adjust slowly by dripping your water into their bag about like a steady faucet drip.

Remember you have predatory species there: crabs eat other crabs, shrimp, etc. Some shrimp eat other shrimp or even fish; arrow crabs eat all your bristleworms, which isn't good for your tank; sally lightfoots get the size of dinner plates and nosh on fish.

Your wife is right: fish should live decades, ideally, or at least A decade, and shrimp should live a year or more. I have 2 brine shrimp in a glass egg that are now 7 years old.

Online companies, if your lfs can't provide good livestock; but first watch your water quality. Have a good skimmer.

[gburton]

Ahh Sk8r, I knew I could rely on you. I have the refractometer and my readings have been 1.025 since feb. I test for pH, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and my pH has gone from 7.8 to 8.0/8.2 since feb. My ammonia, nitri, nitrat have all been zero since the very first cycling. My temp does verie from 78-82 degrees just depending on how hot the outside is. That is in a 24 hr period too. Also the lights coming on makes it go up obviously. I test my own water myself and take a sample to LFS only when I go to buy more stuff hoping their tests may pick up something that mine did not. Where are some online fish stores that you would recommend to buy fish and such? What do you think of the copper test? Any other tests that you all would recommend? I want to add more stuff but will be patient and definately not if stuff is dying.

[Rockhead21564]

cupasorb, I think its called, is a copper absorbtion material. It turns purple when it starts absorbing the copper. Does anything die in your QT, during the first couple of weeks? Do you have any child that may have put a penny in the sysem ? Are you using strips or chemical reactive means? I don't trust the strips, just me maybe. Are you always using the same box of tests? Maybe a bad batch. just some thoughts. Oh have you double checked the temp against any other thermo?

[phil519]

Not sure if this will help but I'm running on the following assumptions:

Your tank has been up since Feb of 2007?

You state your nitrates are 0. What kind of test kits are you using?
You also stated the LFS has a lot of young folks who don't appear to know what they are doing - when you tested the water with the LFS - it was this same LFS?

Is your tank new when you purchased it or was it owned previously?

Honestly - I don't think copper is the issue but it's possible. To me the most sensitive inverts are usually snails and if copper were in there - they'd be the first to go - not the crabs or shrimp.

That stated though you definitely should consider drip-acclimating all your inverts before putting them in tank. Get some cheap airline tub, wind-it such that the water doesn't come out like a faucet and drip it into the bag. Dump the water, repeat as necessary. It should take longer than the 30 mins you are doing to acclimate the inverts. Dr. Ron Shimek also had an alternate method (but one gets tired after a while) with the snails but drip typically works fine. The water into the bag is fine for FW but I wouldn't do it for my SW tank.

I would double check your test kits as mentioned by others. I'm honestly surprised you could get a 0 reading on nitrates. It's a great thing to get a zero for nitrates (the holy grail of SPS) - but it's also very very difficult to do.

Last comment - once you resolve the invert issue, you should begin adding Calcium and Alk to your list of items to test. Inverts will need calcium in order to properly molt and grow. Alk is intertwined with calc..but i don't want to get into that just yet...

With the fish - talk about the QT you have set up. Do you tear it down each time it's used? It is quite possible the fish had a disease prior to introduction...or possibly were procured via the cyanide capture method.

[bertoni]

More questions.

What animals are surviving in the tank now? Was any water from the fish store added to the tank? How were the animals acclimated?

[bertoni]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-06/rhf/index.php

Ooops, meant to post that link. It might help with checking your refractometer's accuracy. The PinPoint 53 mS solution is useful, as well.

[Sk8r]

In the very off chance there is copper involved, get some polyfilter. If it turns blueish, it's picking up copper.

Acclimation mismatch is a common cause of invert death: add to it the remote but real chance your refractometer is off---but it would at least test the same 'offness' when used on 2 different water sources, bag and tank.

Stray current is a possibility. If you have a leaking heater, that can be a real ghosty lethality. Are you ever shocked when dealing with your tank? And is there any possibility your 'young' lfs staff grabbed some water out of a coppered fish tank, for selling the inverts? It would be a dim thing to do, but it could happen.

Glad Bertoni's here: he's very sharp on this sort of stuff.

[gburton]

Wow! You guys are awesome. I will try to answer as many questions as I can. Rockhead; I started with two clowns that I kept in the QT for two weeks and they are still thriving in the main tank. I then added 6 chromis to the QT and with in 2-3 days they started dying one at a time. After 2 weeks I only had two left, I added those two to the main tank and they both died within 2 days. So the 2 clowns, 2/6 chromis and 2 watch gobbies have been QT and made it. We still have 1 gobbie, the other died after 1 day in the main tank. Have kids, almost positive they have not put anything in the tank. My tests are the kind that you add drops to the tank water and look at the color compared to color on a card. Sorry, I am at work and I have forgotten the name of the brand. I'll be home tomorrow and will have access to all my stuff. I have been using the same batch from day one on the chemical reactive means. I will double check with a 2nd thermo. Phil519; can I get more info on drip acclamating for the inverts? Do you have a site or info I could check out? I have gotten 0 for a reading for nitrites and nitrates since my cycle finished in January. Don't know if lucky or bad test kit. I take the QT tank down each time by removing the water, rinsing the tank out with tap water and letting it dry, then store in the position like its in use. I run water through the filters for a couple of days before I add fish to it and the water is from a fresh water change from the main tank. Bertoni; I currently have the two clowns, one gobbie, many hermits many turbo snails, 1 emerald---these guys have been in the tank for a couple of months. Two days ago I added an arrow crab and another emerald crab and a sally litefoot. The sally died after 1 day. I have lost 1 gobie, 2 chromis, ( besides the 4 that died in the QT )1 other emerald, 1 purple/yellow lobster, 2 peppermint shrimp. Sk8t; 2 of my 3 heaters are currently unplugged because about a month ago I was having trouble getting my tank to stay in the 80' range. I thought it may be the heaters, found out it was weather and heat from lites. I don't think it is the heater. I hope this helps you guys, you sure have helped me out a lot. I will check back here in the morning. Thanks, Gregg

[bertoni]

Since the snails and the crab are surviving, I am guessing copper is not the issue, but it might be. I'd expect a full sweep from copper, though.

For acclimation, I'd measure the SG in the bag, and then in the tank, and change the SG about 0.0005 units every 2-30 minutes. A drip is fine, but measuring the SG along the way is critical. Discard all the water from the fish store, for sure.

[phil519]

Credit to "about.com" for these instructions.


Acclimation Instructions

1. Put the fish with all the bag water in a bucket or container of sufficient size for the fish to be reasonably covered with the water.
2. Set the bucket on the floor next to the aquarium you will be placing the fish into when done.
3. Using some plastic air line tubing and an air gang value, set up and run a siphon drip line from the aquarium you will be placing the fish into, to the bucket.
4. Start the siphon and slowly allow the tank water to drip into the bucket, using the gang air valve to adjust the drip rate.
5. When the water dripped into the bucket equals about two to three times the volume of the bag water you started with. If you want you can test the pH, salinity and temperature of the bag water to see if these parameters match that of your tank water at this point to check if acclimation is complete.
6. Gently remove the fish and place it into the same tank the dripped in water came from.

Tips

* It doesn't hurt to add an ammonia buffer or destroyer such as AmQuel to the bag water in the bucket with the fish in it prior to starting the procedure, as ammonia build up may still occur while the fish is kept here, no matter how long completion of acclimation takes.

Some more thoughts to add to the above suggestions from that website.

If you have a sump, the only twist to this is I'd triple bag it and then put the bag in the sump - so the temp starts to acclimate earlier...but the risk is that if the water overflows the LFS water goes into the tank. In addition if you don't have a gangvalve, just tie the line into a knot (not too tight obviously) to adjust the drip. Basically I set up the line, then once the water is flowing, I put a thumb to cover one end and then tie the knot.

Sk8r has a sticky thread at the top of this forum here: Acclimation Thread.

Finally - another option is to switch to a different LFS if the drip acclimation doesn't reduce your losses. Sometimes the blame can be how the critters were captured/transported to the LFS prior to sale to the end customer.

[Ronny#66]

I hate to say it so I won't about LFS stores.

[bertoni]

I would add to those acclimation instructions. After the bag has reached about 3-4 time the initial volume of water, dump all the added volume and do the drip again. That should reduce osmotic shock. Dripping until the bag has just doubled in volume is not at all sufficient in some cases.

[airinhere]

I think your LFS is making a common mistake in doing its water tests. (Or you are.)

The test for Nitrates is very easy to administer incorrectly.

I am guessing you are using the API test (its the most common type)

If so, make sure you shake the #2 bottle for at least 2 minutes before testing. Bang it on something, Count to 120, Whatever.

If you dont do this, the test will likely come back at 0 Nitrates. Its amazing how much a little shaking can change a test result.

I dont think copper is your issue, I think Nitrates could be your issue, but I also think you are suffering from stocking issues.

Clowns are territorial, they could easily be killing your other inhabitants. Are they Maroon, Tomatoe, Clarki, perc, Ocellaris?

Chromis are notorious for not sharing tankspace. They are damsels, mellow ones, but still damsels.

Gobies are generally very territorial and 75 gal is not much space. 2 males would sort things out real quick.

Hermits can eat snails right out of their shells.

There are some shrimp that look like peps, but are cold water (from Sea of Cortez, I think)

Sally lightfoots are just like any other crab, they can be very sensitive during changes from one tank to another. Even from QT to display. Its a dice roll.

I would still try retesting my nitrates first.