Growing bacteria

[mosthated00]

Can you grow the same bacteria that lives in on live rock on other materials? If i was to submerge say, Bioballs, would the same bacteria grow on and in them as long there is ammonia for them to feed on?

[reefnetworth]

Bio-balls are Nitrate (NO-3) machines. do not use them in a SW tank.

[Travis L. Stevens]

To answer the question directly, yes. The surface area provided by bioballs for example will harbor the same bacteria. Now, getting deeper in to bacteria populations. The chances are you already have more than enough surface area for these aerobic bacteria to cling to. They are on the rocks, the sand, the tank walls, the equipment in the tank, and so on. The largest problem in nearly all marine aquariums is the lack of anaerobic bacteria. This is why you hear so many simplified rule-of-thumb's about how much live rock and sand you should have. These things give the ability to provide surface area for anaerobic bacteria to grow and use nitrates.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

To delve even further into this, the reason why bioballs are considered nitrate factories has to do with the observation that denitrification (conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gas) seems to occur most effectively when it occurs right next to the site of nitrification (conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate). You need anaerobic zones for denitrification to occur. Bioballs lack anaerobic zones, so although they are quite good at providing for nitrification they likely do not do any denitrification. This means that even if you have decent amount of liverock and a sand bed, the bioballs will increase nitrates because they will compete for nitrification but will not also provide for denitrification. The free nitrate that is produced is not as effectively reduced as it would have been had it been produced on the liverock or sandbed. Therefore, it is best to just use liverock and a sandbed. Also, as Travis stated, very few tanks lack for nitrification so I do not see any reason for bioballs with the common hobbiest, especially in a reef tank.

[mosthated00]

OK, So first let me go ahead and say Thanks for the information guys.

and second, I am not grasping all this, I am not planning on using the bioballs in a wet dry type setup, I have nice size empty section in my sump and a large amount of bioballs I was thinking about filling the section up with the balls, they would be completely submerged.

let me quote you Travis
"chances are you already have more than enough surface area for these aerobic bacteria to cling to."
The largest problem in nearly all marine aquariums is the lack of anaerobic bacteria. This is why you hear so many simplified rule-of-thumb's about how much live rock and sand you should have. These things give the ability to provide surface area for anaerobic bacteria to grow and use nitrates."

I don’t understand the difference between giving the bacteria rock or sand or bioballs to live on? besides surface area, wouldn’t they live/breed on all of them?

-aninjaatemyshoe can you please define anaerobic zone? would my fuge be considered this? this is my understanding of what you told me, the bacteria on the rock/sand make nitrates into nitrogen gas? correct? and the bacteria on the balls wouldn’t?

Sorry if any of this came out sounding the wrong way, I am not denying any of what either of you told me, I just want to have a firm understanding of it.. thanks again guys.

[Travis L. Stevens]

and second, I am not grasping all this, I am not planning on using the bioballs in a wet dry type setup, I have nice size empty section in my sump and a large amount of bioballs I was thinking about filling the section up with the balls, they would be completely submerged.

Whether they are being trickled with water or submerged in water doesn't matter. The dissolved oxygen in the water only allows for ammonia and nitrite to be broken down.

I don’t understand the difference between giving the bacteria rock or sand or bioballs to live on? besides surface area, wouldn’t they live/breed on all of them?

First, let's jolt your vocabulary. Quite simply, Aerobic means oxygenated and Anaerobic means no oxygen. Only anaerobic areas found deep in the sand bed or deep inside the rock are able to process nitrates to harmless nitrogen gas. Any other surface area whether it is in the first, top layer in the sand, the first layer in the rock, around bioballs, etc is all exposed to oxygen and can only harbor aerobic bacteria and be able to break nutrients down to nitrate level.

aninjaatemyshoe can you please define anaerobic zone?

See above

would my fuge be considered this?

No, a refugium is the little area that allows delicate critters a place to live and reproduce. There are things that we can put in the refugium such as live rock and deep sand beds that can offer anaerobic zones, and even algae that can take up nitrates and use them as fuel to grow.

this is my understanding of what you told me, the bacteria on the rock/sand make nitrates into nitrogen gas? correct?

Yes, but deep inside the rocks/sand. Not on the outside

and the bacteria on the balls wouldn’t?

Correct. The surface area of the bioballs are exposed to oxygen, so they cannot break down nitrates to nitrogen gas

Sorry if any of this came out sounding the wrong way, I am not denying any of what either of you told me, I just want to have a firm understanding of it.. thanks again guys.

Not a problem. The only way to be successful is to know what you're doing, right? So ask away until you understand. We're all here to help you.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Oh, and to stem off any confusion, when I mean "aerobic area" or "anaerobic area", I don't mean the area itself, but the bacteria that live in this area.

[mosthated00]

It all makes since now...
i didnt see the difference in words in your first post.. about aerobic or anaerobic.. i see now. once again,, thanks so much...
is there any information on how deep inside liverock the anaerobic bacteria live? i am going to dump the bio balls and go for liverock rubble.. appreciate it once again.

[Travis L. Stevens]

It highly depends on flow rates and porosity of the rock to know how deep oxygen will penetrate. I couldn't give you even the slightest answer or inclination to a number. As far as ditching the bioballs for rubble, I wouldn't do that, either. You're just switching one aerobic type for another. The "rubble" (after all, rubble is relative depending on your opinion ) is most likely too small to have much if any area deep in the rock for anaerobic area. You're best bet is to leave it out completely and either use the space for a skimmer (if you don't have one), granulated activated carbon, GFO phosphate binders, or even growing macro algae in it.

If you're concerned with removing nitrates and phosphates from a closed system, but lack the room for large rocks or deep sand beds, algae use nitrates and phosphates (and some other trace elements like iron) in order to grow. It is basically taken from the water and assimilated to the lifeform to grow. When it grows out, you harvest it by taking some out and throwing it away. You are effectively and literally taking out excess nitrates and phosphates by hand when you do this.