MH - do you use SE or DE HQI and WHY???

[luv951]

I have always wanted to know the benefits/drawbacks of each. So what do you use, and why did you choose that type?

[hahnmeister]

HQI lasts longer and has a higher output.

[luv951]

whats the downside to HQI? Are they more expensive, generally?

[def]

HQI operates at higher temperature and need UV-shield.

[DarG]

I dont think there is much difference in price. It can go either way. Some SE bulbs may be a few dollars less than their respective DE version from the same manufatcurer, same color temp. Others may be a few dollars more. I think it's pretty much a wash.

DE does need a shield where DE doesnt but when you buy the DE reflectors, the shield is included in most cases. And price between the SE and DE versions of the same make/model reflector is pretty much equal.

There can be an initial financial break in going with SE because there are cheap reflectors available. Without needing a shield, a basic SE reflector (like a "batwing") can be nothing more than a bent sheet of reflective aluminum and a socket. These can obviously be cheaper than an enclosed reflector with a glass shield required for DE bulbs. But this type of SE reflector is also notoriously poor at utilizing the available light from the bulb so it's not the bargain that is seems to be.

[luv951]

That makes it seem like the decision between the two would be really simple. If it lasts longer with higher output, and the downsides are higher termp, plus a sheilded piece of glass, why do people use SE lamps?

Is the temperature difference huge?

[jwccwj]

Appearently one bulb (the SE I think) shines its light more broadley and it covers more area where the DE has a more focused light coverage.I could be wrong but I think thats why Invinsible 569 went with Se bulbs in his spectra Giesssmann fixture if you have been following his thread.

[Puffer Daddy]

I've researched the same..basically with SE, you get slightly lower output, but now UV shield (bulb glass is the shield) plus, you have a broader choice of bulbs.

DE, you have slightly higher outputs, but with the UV glass, it cuts down close to SE and the bulb choice may not be as "broad". I was looking to swap my se's for de's but now, I plan on getting lumemax's which will put me where I want to be

[TwistedTiger]

Switched fro DE to SE because there is greater selection of bulbs to chose from. Don't get caught up with higher output you can find bulbs with the PAR you're looking for in either DE or SE. As far as one lasting longer than the other, that depends greatly on the manufacturer of the bulb not whether it is DE or SE.

[skhle]

IMO is room, in my top canopy, DE fixture sit about 6" from water , others have their SE higher

[hahnmeister]

Okay, time to get technical, since I see some confusion here...

jwccwj, DE and SE have about the same size jacket where the actual light comes from. In the past, large reflectors like lumenarcs werent made for DE bulbs, so there was an advantage there for SE. Now that Lumenarcs come in DE (actually, they always could be, you just had to ask)... its no longer a problem. Both bulbs have the same 'spread'.

As for output, remember, the 250wattDE bulb is supposed to run on a HQI ballast. 250wattSE bulbs are not. This is a huge difference in output because people forget that if you change the socket, you should also change the ballast to spec. Running a SE bulb on HQI will result in a glorious, but short life (unless its one of the rare HQI rated SE bulbs like the 250wattSE Radium)... a bit like running a car on jet fuel. I say this because as people compare bulbs on Sanjay's site, they dont change the ballast, and then it looks like the DE and SE bulbs are so close. But this is not an accurate comparison because SE bulbs should be run on M59 ballasts or e-ballasts, and DE bulbs should be running on HQI spec/M80 ballasts. 250wattDE bulbs are made to run at a higher spec... simply put. SE bulbs are not. SE bulbs are lower pressure inside the jacket, and use a probe start circuit (starter is in the bulb) which starts the bulbs very similar to how phosphor lamps are started. And well... you know how phosphor lamps get those black rings, right? Well, the spatter from the SE startup causes the bulb to lose its output quicker. With DE/HQI bulbs, the starting mechanism isnt to use a starter circuit, its to use a pulse, or high voltage surge across the entire bulb to get it lit. This means no spatter, as the entire contents of the bulb is energized at once. This is what also requires the higher pressure contents in the bulb. As a consequence of the higher pressure, as well as the better starting mechanism, the halides in the bulb last longer.

As for the loss of light due to the sheild... well... I prefer the sheild actually. Lets say I was running SE w/o a sheild. Over time the unprotected reflector would corrode and stain... and the light loss will be much greater than the small amount that a piece of LoE glass will subtract. So I consider glass sheilds a good idea anyways... so why be redundant and have it on the bulb as well as the reflector? Look at old SE reflectors... they are stained and corroded. Look at old DE reflectors... the glass might be covered, but that is easy to take care of with water and vinegar. The reflectors are still spotless.

[Nick A]

What about running an SE Ushio on an HQI ballast? Marinedepot says HQI ballasts or electronics are required for the SE Ushio bulbs.

[hahnmeister]

400's or 250's? Depends on the bulb. Ushio is one of those few companies that does make 250wattHQI in SE (Like the 250watt Radium), so its pretty much a HQI bulb in a Mogul socket. But in the US, they also sell the CWA series of bulbs, which is not HQI, but probe start, so we can use them on our more common M59 ballasts. So it really comes down to the bulbs.

400watt bulbs that are HQI are Mogul for instance. Those 400wattDE's are a sham. They are low-pressure bulbs in HQI clothing so people think its the socket that means its HQI. Notice that all the 400wattDEs are sold with e-ballasts, and even at that, they usually only last 6-9 months. True 400wattHQI bulbs have always been SE/Mogul because there never was a universal DE spec for 400s. For 400wattHQI, there is the Aquaconnect 14,000K, Aqualine 10,000K, Ushio Aqualight/BLV nepturion (non-CWA models) 10,000K, 14,000K, and 20,000K. The Giesemann 400's are also HQI (they are rebadged Ushios). Thats pretty much it.

[luv951]

Looking at hello lights, I saw an electronic ballast, and ARO that states:

Electronic ARO Ballast Specifications
* Item Code: 61-61001
* Will fire all 250W metal halide bulbs, regardless if they are "probe start", "pulse start", HQI or Standard mogul in design. No worries with this ballast! * Energy Saving - up to 25% over magnetic ballasts.
* Extended Lamp Life - up to 25%
* Consistent Lamp Color.
* Uniform Lumen Output.
* Reduced Lamp Flicker.
* Cool, Silent Operation.
* Long Ballast Life.
* 3 year warranty
* Dimensions: 8 1/2" x 3 3/4" x 2 1/8" (LxWxH)


So Hahn, is this information bunk? What would happen if you put a DE bulb on this ballast (they sell a retrofit) vs. a SE bulb?

[DarG]

The ballast would fire the DE bulbs it just wont run them at the wattage and therefore the output of a magentic HQI, M80 ballast.
You get the energy savings at the cost of reduced output with DE bulbs. Thats a generalization though. Not all 250 watt DE bulbs have higher output on the M80 ballast. The vast majority do but a few dont. Then, the amount varies. Some DE's have signifgantly higher output and run at higher wattages on the M80, other dont benefit as much.

Hahn would have to answer this but I think that in general the margin of differences between being driven by magnetic vs electronic ballasts is smaller with most SE bulbs in terms of wattage and output.

[USC-fan]

Just get DE. Better for tons of different reasons. Get a good reflector and HQI ballast. For the best de bulb get the phoenix 14k 250watt.

This is the set up i run and its awesome.

[luv951]

OK, so assuming that, which HQI ballast and which reflector. I really don't want to spend a ton of money if I can avoid it......so lets do it this way. Considering price, whats the best ballast, reflector, combo.....also considering that I might want to try mulitple bulbs till I find the perfect color.

[mouscacha]

Sorry! I'm hijaking this thread to find out the suggestions. I'm trying to find a ballast/bulb combo for some lumenmax 3 reflectors.

[DarG]

Reef Exotics has good package deals on Lumenarc reflectors and ballasts. But I believe they are IceCap or Coralvue electronic ballasts.

If you look around you may find a clearance or sale deal.
Best reflectors are Lumenarc or Lumenmax 3.
I kinda think that most name brand HQI ballasts are pretty much equal.

I did pick up a Blue Wave VII dual 250 watt HQI on clearance from Reefgeek a while back for 259 bucks brand new. He was clearing them out. Otherwise a 450 dollar ballast.
He's clearing out the Reef Optix 3 DE relfectors for 80 bucks. Not a bad reflector but doesnt have the spread of the Lumenarc or Lumenmax and creates a hotter hot spot.

I think that PFO magnetic HQI's are a bit cheaper. It's definitely cheaper to go electronic. You usually dont lose all that much. It depends on the bulb. Some do real well on electronic ballasts.
Usually the best value is had in a dual ballast. Two ballasts in one.

For cheap you can get the bare bones ballasts which is all the parts without the case. You have to wire together yourself (easy). If you want to go that route.

Dont know where to steer you for a good deal on a magnetic ballast righjt now, sorry. If you are not in a hurry, keep an eye on Reefgeek. He frequently blows some stuff out cheap.

[hahnmeister]

luv951, the info is bending the truth. Just because a ballast can fire a bulb doesnt mean it will run it to spec. Underdriving a bulb is just as bad as overdriving it... halides remain unused in the bulb, and sit on the quartz sleeve and burn into the glass, so you lose their potential, as well as the light that they block from the other gasses.

Some e-ballasts will fire certain DE bulbs and not others. Many 10,000Ks are easier to fire than 20,000Ks for instance. Anyone remember the last generation Icecap 250watt ballasts that wouldnt fire XDE 20,000Ks?

DE bulbs were meant to run on HQI ballasts. Until I see an e-ballast that has an output that rivals that of a HQI, or comes close, Im sorry, but Im not buying the whole 'high frequency' marketing ploy. I have yet to see a DE bulb that is run close to spec on any e-ballast. The difference is usually in the 20% range. Thats a large difference as far as outputs go.

My long term testing shows that HQI ballasts will run the bulb with more output than an e-ballast.

SLS has had some bad capacitor lots in some of their ballasts. PFO's record has been spotless. They are both M80 spec ballasts underneath, but I believe PFO does a better job of QC.

[luv951]

Thanks Hahn....I was waiting for you ; )

I was under the impression that e-ballasts were superior to both probe and pulse start mag ballasts...thanks for clearing that up for me.

So, it seems that for the best setup, I should be shopping for an HQI ballast, pulse start, DE bulbs and a decent reflector...lumenarcs prefered.

Man, I love this site!

[hahnmeister]

Sorry, I didnt touch on that... HQI ballasts are pulse start by definition. Its part of their international spec.

In one of Sanjay's recent articles with Paul Erik Hervonen, they go over all of this pretty well...

Here is PE's page...
http://members.fortunecity.com/paulerik/

And the article:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-03/sj/index.php

Read up!

The only mistake I think they made is that they listed the 400wattDE bulbs as HQI. I dont believe this to be true because PaulErik once told me that the only true 400wattDE/HQI is made by Radium, and its a 5000K. All the rest are low-pressure bulbs in a DE socket to make people thinik they are higher output/HQI, but they run on e-ballasts and wear out fast. They do arent probe start however... so some pulse start or mechanism in the ballast is needed... hence the e-ballasts (wont fire on M59 ballasts if I remember right).

[DarG]

Hahn

What about the very few DE bulbs that have, slightly better, or the same PPFD numbers on electronic ballast vs. the magnetic HQI according to sanjays data.

Are these being run to spec on the e-ballast?

I not, what accounts for the equivalent par numbers?

One example is the XM 15000K 250 watt DE. Same numbers for par on the PFO M80 vs. the Blueline electronic. Slightly higher color temp. measured on the e-ballast.

I have no available info on the respective wattages for this bulb on the two different ballasts.

This isnt the only example. They are few and far between but there are a few 150 and 250 watt DE with equal, higher or very similiar PPFD specs on e-ballast compared to M81 or M80 for these few bulbs. Is the eballast running these few to spec?

[hahnmeister]

I suppose, there are a couple bulbs that I know of that actually run higher on the EVC ballast as well... its rare, but it does happen. In that case, as long as the outputs match up, I would say that the bulbs are being run to spec, and all is good.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
luv951, the info is bending the truth. Just because a ballast can fire a bulb doesnt mean it will run it to spec. Underdriving a bulb is just as bad as overdriving it... halides remain unused in the bulb, and sit on the quartz sleeve and burn into the glass, so you lose their potential, as well as the light that they block from the other gasses.

Some e-ballasts will fire certain DE bulbs and not others. Many 10,000Ks are easier to fire than 20,000Ks for instance. Anyone remember the last generation Icecap 250watt ballasts that wouldnt fire XDE 20,000Ks?

DE bulbs were meant to run on HQI ballasts. Until I see an e-ballast that has an output that rivals that of a HQI, or comes close, Im sorry, but Im not buying the whole 'high frequency' marketing ploy. I have yet to see a DE bulb that is run close to spec on any e-ballast. The difference is usually in the 20% range. Thats a large difference as far as outputs go.

My long term testing shows that HQI ballasts will run the bulb with more output than an e-ballast.

SLS has had some bad capacitor lots in some of their ballasts. PFO's record has been spotless. They are both M80 spec ballasts underneath, but I believe PFO does a better job of QC.

Hahn, the Geissman E-ballasts run at HQI spec.