Water Changes, Good or bad to take from bottom of tank

[ScarabRa]

Ok not gonna over think the question, but i want to touch on all points im interested in.

QUESTION:
When / How to do a water change...
AND Your opinion of where and how to take water out.

Specifically,


A) do or do not gravel vac
a2) how much substrate do you have, and how large is the gravel size?

b) normal ammount in %
b2) how often (does it depend on live stock load, or not)



Why am I asking??? theres allot of new Theories now, and some are completely different than what was considered Optimal, back when i was really deep in to this stuff (8 years ago)

I do once every 2 weeks, and i do 15-20 gal on my 55 with 20 gal sump (bout 30% give or take correct?)

I have maby an inch of meduim to small gravel, but only along the front, (old skool.....lol) and I gravel vac half each time I do a water change. (not too woried about suking out my copopods, as I have a refugum.

Every weekend, i get my trusty turkey baster, and stirr up the silt off the rock holes, and its captured with my pre folter, which I rince with hot water when it needs to be cleaned (bout every other week)

I have had luck with this so far, but I wanted to hear opinions/ theories about this topic.

[ScarabRa]

LOL a popular thread/question this is....lol

Please post something, we ALL do water changes....

a simple

1) from top or sump
2) 20%

would be suffice as an answer

[IPT]

I'm no pro, but I do about 10% every week or two. I siphon from within the tank and siphon all over and around the rocks (just in case there is a tiny deadspot and some detrius buildup).

[Tank102a]

I stir up a little storm from behind the rocks and from cravesis with a turkey baster, then take 20% every 2 weeks from the most cloudy part of the tank.

Since I have very fine live sand I don't want to siphon out anything from the bottom. (what ever blows into the watercolumn from my turkey baster).

[Fishbulb2]

I change one gallon every night from my 40g tank. I exchange it from the sump. Every once in a while, I will vacuum the sump to get out all of the settled crap from there.

FB

[acrylic_300]

I change about 10% a month, which isn't a lot. I try to make the best of it by using a thin hose and getting as much crud as I can, otherwise I start wondering if the water I tossed was any worse than the water going back in.

[ScarabRa]

GREAT, some posters!!!!


OK looks like what I thought...

I had been hearing the new school is to not gravel vac ever,
But I was thinking that sounds insane.

Keep em coming...

Thanks

[Jamokie01]

Well, the "new school" doesnt really use gravel anymore, most common is a sugar grain sized sandbed or barebottom. Which is better has been argued more times than anyone can count. The reason, however, that gravel is rarely used anymore is because it traps too much detritus and left over food often resulting in high nitrates, not to mention there are a number of fish that require a fine sandy substrate. I wont try to get you to change your system around, what works for you works for you, but yes, if you do have a gravel bottom, cleaning it is essential.

[ScarabRa]

Originally posted by Jamokie01
Well, the "new school" doesnt really use gravel anymore, most common is a sugar grain sized sandbed or barebottom. Which is better has been argued more times than anyone can count. The reason, however, that gravel is rarely used anymore is because it traps too much detritus and left over food often resulting in high nitrates, not to mention there are a number of fish that require a fine sandy substrate. I wont try to get you to change your system around, what works for you works for you, but yes, if you do have a gravel bottom, cleaning it is essential.

Excellent enlightenment,

I am considering switching up, as I have had this specific tank set up for over 8 years, the same way. I am deff down for a change, this is specifically why I was asking.

The Plan:
Swap to a fine crushed coral sand substrate with about 2-3 inches deepth. I plan on stacking my rocks without drilling them with anything (as I have always done) but I had been concerend about vacking around the rocks, as if there not on the very bottom of the tank, when you move the sand you can have a possible rockslide(the reason i hadent switched to sand in my home system earlier.) I do allot of rock spanned bridges, and very open stacking (creating alllot of caves, and passageways for fish to swim in), so my setups were not going to be stable when sitting on top of the sand.

BUT I may have an idea, I was going to get 3-4" diameter pvc, and cut slices of 2". then I set the rock on these, stack/ decorate the rock like i want, then add the sand by pouring it in with a cup, but over the entire base.

Then I will be able to get the big stuff off the bottom, but not really gravel vac down deep.


So Basically:
Remove my gravel, and get 2-3" fine crushed coral sand across the entire bottom.

Then suck out the sediment that is around rock edges on the very surface of the sand. when doing water change.

Hows that sound???
any suggestions or adjustments are welcome.
also more comments on the topic in the title too.

[Jamokie01]

Well when I aquascape, I start with the rock before I put sand on, which gives it a much sturdier base.

Also, the nice thing about sand is not having to really clean it. I always keep several Nassarius snails (The big ones that are like 3$ a piece, the tiny ones are useless), they come up when I feed, or at night, keeping my sand well stirred.

Id suggest you search for a sand bed vs barebottom thread, it would be good to learn pros and cons before you make a decision.

[ScarabRa]

Originally posted by Jamokie01
Well when I aquascape, I start with the rock before I put sand on, which gives it a much sturdier base.

But wouldn't that create allot more anaerobic bacteria areas, plus your loosing 3 inches of height!!

I think a base of pipe ringed in specific spots would be fairly stable, and allow sand to go underneath the rocks, but remain a stable stacking platform so to speak when/if sand is moved, by vacking. or by a constructive jaw fish or engineer gobie.

Originally posted by Jamokie01

Id suggest you search for a sand bed vs barebottom thread, it would be good to learn pros and cons before you make a decision.

I have looked and discussed doing it for years now, this thread was just to see what everyones opinion was on water changes, and in a round about way was going to help me determine how i was going to set up the sand itself (phisically)

Ive kinda decided to go through with it, since i want to get some animals that need deep sand (Garden eel specifically)

plus im tired of my pencil eraser sized crushed coral, and my sediment problem. Since I removed the alge scrubber, I am having to do water changes to keep nitrate down

I am currently looking for prolifera, to set it up again, but its one of thoes "next week" type items...lol

[justinl]

when i do water changes, if the sand is dirty with diatoms or whatever, i stir it a bit. i occasionally baste my rocks as well at this time. then i turn off all the pumps for half an hour. then i first siphon the sand (i use oolitic, 2-3 inches) of all teh detritus i can easily reach... i get a lil bit of sand in the process but not enough to worry about at all. after Ive taken care of solid detritus, i then move the siphon end up near the surface of the water. I do this because protein floats. if there is a slick at the surface of the water, i use a bowl to skim the surface.

i change 20% weekly.

[acropora1981]

i do 20% every 2 weeks. I gravel vac, and I have the size of sand just up from sugar sized(about 2mm diameter aragonite). I used to do DSB about 10 yrs ago, and then realized it was causing algae problems. Tried barebottom for a while, and found i wasnt getting as good growth, but who knows if it was b/c of that or some other variable. Anyway, the system I have now works very well for what im into (Acans, ricordea, etc)

[ScarabRa]

Originally posted by acropora1981
... I used to do DSB about 10 yrs ago, and then realized it was causing algae problems....

Ok Ya got me...

DSB?

something something berlin?



(all these acronims...lol FOWLR...lol)

[acropora1981]

DSB= Deep Sand Bed

[ScarabRa]

Originally posted by acropora1981
DSB= Deep Sand Bed

Do'h, there so obvious once you know what they are...lol


Ok so what actually qualifies DSB? over 3 inches?

What depth did you swap to (that you have now I mean?)? SSB (shallow sand bed) ...lol

Did you have a refugum, and still had the alage problem?
I am hoping that the refugum will suck up the nutrients that you are reffering to in your above answer.

[Jamokie01]

A DSB is at least 4", its main purpose over a shallow sand bed is nitrate reduction. Any sandbed with livesand will help process detritus, but it needs to be at least so deep to create an anaerobic area for denitrification to take place. In systems where no sandbed is desired in the tank, remote DSBs are becomming more common. This is simply a sandbed in a bucket. Water is prefiltered, pumped into the bucket, and allowed to flow back out at a slow-moderate rate. The sole purpose of this is nitrate reduction, and detritus should not be allowed into the remote DSB. When used alone or in conjunction with a refugium, nitrates can be greatly reduced.

I have a 6" DSB in my tank and an 8" DSB in my refugium where I grow feather caluerpa, my nitrates are always around zero, I very infrequently do water changes and I only use tap water. I give my glass a quick magsweep every other day and aside from my inability (lack of desire) to clean the back wall of the film algae and a little cyano, my tank has never had an algae problem. I love my DSB.

[ScarabRa]

Originally posted by Jamokie01
...in my refugium where I grow feather caluerpa....

Do you ever have a spore off on the caluerpa?

I specifically use Prolifera, as it tends to grow by rooting, rather than sporing.



description of prolifera

I used a Prolifera Scrubber for over 2 years, with minimal water changes in college. Partly as an experiment, and partly due to sheer lazyness. I would turn the Prolifera in at the LFS for credit too . I also had fairly low nitrate (less than 5ppm?) buildup even though I had a fairly heavely stocked aquarium, as I worked at a wholesaler, and brought new stuff home allot.

Had a breeder pair of true perculas, and several other fish, with some mushrooms, and leather corals.

[Jamokie01]

Actually I have both in my refugium, I started off with the same amount of each and the feather caluerpa outgrew the prolifera, oh Id say like 100 to 1. Not even close. Now the prolifera that remains is so shadowed by the feather that it hasnt grown in a year, just one strand of it. Whereas my caluerpa grows about 2" (upward) a week, and gets a serious haircut every other week. And no, Ive never had it go sexual on me, it grows on a root strand like the prolifera.