ATB skimmers, any in the US?

[hahnmeister]

Hello. Its been a while since I first saw this skimmer, and have been looking around at other sites, and would like to learn more about them. The cone shape offers many advantages over the current cylinder w/ reducer design, and for mfg's, it may be cheaper than buying acrylic pipe even. I know mavgi has been watching them too... but I wanted to see if I could get some input in a seperate thread. FWIW, I have contacted Anton Burian in hopes that I can have a 'Small' cone model shipped to me. Normally I would just make one, but I like the design enough to get the real deal. If I can, I would just get the skimmer w/o the pump, which should lower the price of the Small Cone Skimmer, and bypasses the whole problem with the 110v/220v, since I have Sicce PSK 2500s, a Quiet One 3000 now, and a couple eheim needlewheel/threadwheel pumps now... so I have it covered. So I thought I would post some pics and ask around about this Austrian maker.

http://www.aquariumtechnik.at/produkte1.html

Cute little eheim 1250 skimmer:




And an airstone skimmer... I link the image because I thought of the same 'low turbulence' ring shaped skimmer feed at the top of the skimmer long ago... nice to see that it works!


And here are the CONES... the one I am interested in:




A white version:


The rest of the CONES:


And the new Pyramid skimmer:

[hahnmeister]

A new 'nano-cone', fed with an eheim 1250:



'Nano' means good for up to 211 gallons!!! Then again... its using this:


to get this:

From what I make of it, ATI used to have a needlewheel eheim 1250, and ATB took it and made it into a threadwheel.
I figure maybe I can create some hub-bub over here and someone might pick them up... or maybe I will myself...lol.

I gotta say, I love it... he gives power ratings not only in RMS, but VA + PF, so you can see how much it will heat the water as well.

[trmiv]

Those are some nice looking skimmers.

[skimmy]

i contacted them directly to enquire about getting the prices for shipping them here, and selling in the store i work in, hopefully i will get a response soon
that nano looks sweet!
did you catch the price on it?

[trmiv]

Wow those small size cone one's aren't cheap! 675 euros, that's $920.

I'm not sure what the difference is between the Abschäumer D150 and the Pfannenabschäumer D150. One is about $435 and the other (the red one) is $540.

[Jim_S]

Yeah, these skimmers are not cheap. But I like how they have such a wide variety of models and pumps. Some use eheims, some use red dragons.

I'm sure its just a matter of time before an American or Canadian distributor picks this line up. Just like the ATI skimmers.

[Reef Sponger]

Nice looking skimmers. Great foam shots!

[rishma]

I have to ask the obvious....

other thank looking really good, what are the (percieved) advantages of the cone body? There is a certain sensibility about smooth transition and consolidation of the foam, but it also cuts the total skimmer volume significantly.

hahn/others - care to put some science to it?

thanks

[hahnmeister]

Well Anton got back to me very quickly... wants 500 euro for the small cone skimmer (not the nano) w/o pump, and 42.20 for shipping (675 Euro w/ pump) . He said that he has 110v eheims on the way because of others in the US who are buying them. He said he can even send me a pump after I try my own if it doesnt work out. So right now, 500 Euro equals $681.36 US. We will see... I am interested, thats for sure.

victor90 has also contacted me asking about who to contact about being a US distributor for ATB, so I will get some info for him.

[hahnmeister]

Originally posted by rishma
I have to ask the obvious....

other thank looking really good, what are the (percieved) advantages of the cone body? There is a certain sensibility about smooth transition and consolidation of the foam, but it also cuts the total skimmer volume significantly.

hahn/others - care to put some science to it?

thanks

Okay, here is the advantage as I see it...

A cone has its volume midpoint at the height midpoint. So a skimmer with a cylinder that is 3' tall will have its midpoint at 18" from the bottom.

A cone has its midpoint much lower, often at the 1/3 the height. Now, a cone has about the same volume as the average of its top and bottom diameter... so a skimmer with a 10" bottom and 6" top is about the same as a 8" pipe. A skimmer uses the bottom section for 'sorting'. This is where bubbles are intended to seperate from the water that is flowing down to the exit at the bottom to go out the standpipe. Then, above this, is where the pumps turbulence is taken care of. A Euro-reef, Deltec, or H&S style needs extra space for the water turbulence to be dealt with in the body so it doesnt disrupt the head. The 12" diameter of some of these skimmers is to deal with the water turbulence more than the air throughtput. A 12" diameter body can easily handle over 4000lph of air... as long as the water turbulence is reduced. The 3000lph of a Euro-reef RC750 is low, but needed because the body has to handle the turbulence... otherwise, a 8-10" diameter would be enough for 3000lph of air.

So here's where the cone has the advantage: if the turbulence is handled by some diffuser method... like the bubble plate, then the body doesnt need to be as large at the center. The sorting area still needs space, but this happens to be at the bottom of the cone... its widest part... and if you are using a 8" base, 4" neck cone vs. a 6" cylinder, you actually have all the advantages of a 8" diameter sorting area for the same volume body. And, a cone means that for the same volume as the cylinder, the water level can be lower in the body. So you can have a large base for sorting and to fit a large bubble-plate, a lower waterline in the skimmer for better pump efficiency (less back pressure), and in theory, the less abrupt transition to reduce to the neck should preserve the skimming ability of all those bubbles that hit this barrier, rather than knocking the skimmate right off. So to sum it up, the cone gives more volume where a skimmer needs it, and less where it doesnt.

[rishma]

hanh, your explanation seems sound, but the only real benefit in performance would come from "the less abrupt transition to reduce to the neck should preserve the skimming ability of all those bubbles that hit this barrier, rather than knocking the skimmate right off."

this seems to be the only thing not achievable with a cylinder design unless you have a very gentle cone shaped transition.

I am not ignoring the efficiency of space arguments, but really just interested in how a cone would perform better than a cylinder. It does not seem to be less $$$

one other thing

I gotta say, I love it... he gives power ratings not only in RMS, but VA + PF, so you can see how much it will heat the water as well.

can you exlain to the non-IEEE types (like me, metallurgist) how one would relate power factor ect to heat transferred to water? I would guess that as PF approaches 1, the heat dumped to water would be minimal becase power is efficiently turned into water movement, but beyond this I am not sure.

thanks as always

[hahnmeister]

power factor helps compute the pump efficiency. if the power factor is a .5, then, at the very least, 1/2 of its electrical use (real power) is going to heat the tank/air.

[pjf]

Hahn,

Two questions:

• The exhaust port on the ATB standpipe is barely 5 inches above the floor. What is the recommended water level for the small and nano skimmers? Are you planning to place it on a platform inside your sump?

• The ATB looks similar to an ATI Bubble Master with a cone shape to reduce turbulence. I hope that this cone provides enough foam stability to make up for the lack of dwell time in this co-current skimmer. Do you expect this skimmer to be consistent and stable?

Thanks!

[hahnmeister]

The outlet is low, but thats because its controlled like the BK mini line... the standpipe twists to adjust the gate valve. Ill admit... I dont like gate valves... but with a super low skimmer like this, it might be a different story. Still... I have considered asking for a telescoping standpipe if possible.

These arent as crazy turbulent as the ATI... they are more like BK supermarines in that respect. The 9" base of the S cone model is for only an eheim 1260, which in the EU is a 700lph pump only. And its not shooting all that up some narrow pipe in the center... there is a small ring around the bubble plate.... but its pretty short.

As far as skimmers go... this is a slightly different beast... its more like a beckett in this respect... less about dwell time, and more about emulsification of all the water into a foam head. This is a way around the 'usual methods'.

Also, I will note: To those who think after all I say here about taller skimmers and such that 'why would I go with such a short skimmer?' and 'its not a recirc... hahn is buying a non-recirc!!' Well, this is for a 125g tank, in my living room. I have thought about a 5' tall cylinder of bubbles standing next to the tank, but Im not so sure. My tank is a real modernist work of art... and if I dont think I can disguise the skimmer enough to go with this, then I might want to stick with something in my sump. Its not my 'ideal' by any means, but it works. Besides, since I can vent the skimmer right to the outside along with my canopy, I will most likely be running ozone as well to make up for the shortness. But for my tank, which has a pretty low load and is set up with very well established LR, I dont know that I would even need a 5' tall skimmer, even if only 6" in diameter. So, if not going with a taller skimmer, what would I want... well... a bubble plate with a nice wide diameter. As it turns out, my sump is a 40L, so getting a 12" diameter cylinder is too much, and 10" is even pushing it. The 9" base cone has the space where it counts, but it narrow up top so it doesnt crowd my sump. The low throughput of just the eheim (not that its shy exactly) means less turbulence and microbubbles, esp with the 9" diameter of the sorting area at the base. The bubble plate means a nice calm rise of bubbles from the bottom... prolly a dwell time equivalent similar to a 30-36" tall recirc skimmer in the end due to the lowered turbulence. So no... its not my ideal... but its prolly the best bang for the buck in this range.

Dont get me wrong though... instead of ATB, I am considering having the cone made (if ORCA cant) and sending it to ORCA to have them make a recirc version with a telescoping standpipe, halo shaped inlet feed, and an ATI BM/BK Supermarine style bubble plate so the bubble plate is even lower on the body. The ATB is only 22" tall, like the ATIs/ BKs, etc. I technically could do up to 30" tall under my stand... so a taller cone may be in order. Well see... I have a skimmer on there all ready... so its not like Im in dire need to get something ASAP... Its just kinda ugly.

[crazinezz978]

i think my LFS might have one of those, one of their skimmers does say "ATB" on it, ill find out next time im down there

[GuySmilie]

Originally posted by hahnmeister

Jon, are these bodies one piece?
I can see that the cone transitions into a cylinder, but I don't see a disconnecting joint inside that dark plastic collar. Is the cone glued to the cylinder?

[hahnmeister]

The support arm that holds the standpipe in place also serves as a neck that holds the cup on. There is a very fine seam inside this grey piece. The cup and this part do come off.

[GuySmilie]

Also Jon, I've photo edited your picture a bit to better see the details of that pump. I'm not familiar with this pump. If that's a venturi, it looks mighty short. Do you have any info, details, or drawings of how it works?

[hahnmeister]

Its going to be just like the ATI Sicce ones from the looks of it. A short venturi is a good thing.

[dgill]

hahnmeister... I'm one of the people that Anton referred to, he checked a couple of weeks ago for me and is able to get the 110V Eheims locally in Austria and modify, so I ordered a Nano Cone and Small Cone. Also ordered a calc reactor and he has a really nice looking zeo reactor too (see below).

[mavgi]

Originally posted by GuySmilie
Also Jon, I've photo edited your picture a bit to better see the details of that pump. I'm not familiar with this pump. If that's a venturi, it looks mighty short. Do you have any info, details, or drawings of how it works?

the impeller that run on this pump (on the ATB ) it's this one :

[dgill]

Some of the ATB skimmers are now using a mesh wheel I believe...

[mavgi]

Originally posted by dgill
Some of the ATB skimmers are now using a mesh wheel I believe...

as i know they not.... maybe someone try but not sure

by the way they make turbulence more then the ATI but the pump creat a great foam , the pump have power to build the foam half size from the skimmer body and the con shape help to move the foam quick to the cup. also the skimmer have the exhaust port lower then a standard and in this way you can work with a stronger pump and to keep the water level low in the skimmer body and to creat foaming machine

here it's the supersize on 6000 liter tank :

[dgill]

mavgi, the larger models I agree use a needlewheel, but the Nano Cone that hahn posted above and that I just ordered definitely uses a mesh wheel... here is a picture:



As you can see, this is not a DIY job with cables holding the mesh in place. Rather, a nut held in place with clips. Very nice IMO.

[mavgi]

congratulation it's a great skimmer , you going to love it.

from some test that i did i am sure the big one can work on the mesh wheel as well and even perform better .