Need Help with Cyno.

[MADJABJOE]

I can't seem to be able to control the growth of cyno bacteria. It is only growing in the front of my tank. Does anyone know how to get rid of this damn stuff. I have read books upon books. I don't have any measurable phosphates; Nitrates are less than .02 PMM and I have a RODI unit for water changes. I have not used any chemicals yet but if i cant figure it out I will be left with no choice. I have never heard of any snail or other animals that actually eat the stuff. So I guess I am at a loss. Oh yeah, I put some power heads right on it thinking my waterflow was low but it didn't do any things. I feel like I change my water enough (15gal of 90 weakly) and I have been using activated carbon for some time thinking I have to much disolved organics but all seams to fail.

Please Help! I'm on my last nerve!!!

[tmz]

Try this thread for some information.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1239002

[sanababit]

mad im going thru the same phase of a cyano outbreak, mine started with a tank upgrade, its been almost 4 weeks since transfer and 2 of those i have a really bad outbreak, only advice i can give you is this, get flow directly to cyano, shut off lights for 2 or 3 days and check nitrates and phospate, you would probably wont get a high reading because cyano is using it to thrive.

one other thing is patience, dont use chemicals (until last resort), btw do you have a refugium with some kind of algae???, the refugium will help a lot because the algae will eat up nitrates and phospate, another thing that a refugium is good for is that it will let nuissance algaes to thrive in the fuge and keep them out of your main display, the way they do it is that they eat the nitrates and phospates before they go into your display, this will make them starve and die off.
good luck


sana

[ihopss]

Have you added live sand or rock lately or moved your rock around, If so it may be feeding off of that, clean off what you can and give it( rock,sand )more time to cure.I added some what was supposed to be live sand to my tank and the cyno covered everything in my tank,PS it was outdated(dead).

[uscharalph]

Suck out what you can wit a turkey baster. How old are you light bulbs?

[flyguy7150]

try dripping kalk, i think thats what helped clear out mine, two little fishies brand says it precipitates phosphates, i dont see any cyano or hair algae anymore. Its worth a shot.

[Timinator]

Mad, Get you a Phosban reactor the cyno thrives on Phosphates the reactor will take them out. Do increase your flow if you can and you should start seeing results in about a week. And I recommend the Two Little Fishies Phosban reactor or a Kent. Dont put chemicals in your tank your only looking for more problems that way.

[MADJABJOE]

Answer to question from replys:

I did add new live rock. However, the cyno was there before the addition.
I changed my MH lights a few months ago. I thought this might help. Nope.
I have a huge refugium with a lot of Halmidia and Chato growing.

I only feed once a day. I would not think that would be to much...
I just reduced my photo period by one hour for both MH and my Actinics...
I will buy a Phosban reactor. Do I use Phosban media? Suggestions?
My PH has droped recently. Might be due to the addition of my Ca Reactor.
I moved my efluent drips to my protein skimmer. Currently monitoring for any change in PH.

What test kit is the best a measuring for Phosphates? I use Salifert currently.

[Timinator]

In my opinion salfert is reliable enough. as long as you feed just enough for the fish to take up all the food and no excess is floating around that is my rule of thumb, thats good enough. Of coarse the fish waste is another thing so just find the good medium. Water changes of coarse as long as it's RO and your filters aren't leaching phosphates and need to be changed. The Chato is excellent, the media I prefer is the PhoSar HC by Warner Marine Research that is crushed up so use get more absorbtion. Also get a Two little Fishes reactor. I use the TLF brand and enjoy it,doesn't leak like the Aqua C. I know there are people on here that have the Aqua C and have no problems, but there is more that hate them than not, because of the seal problems. And yes the CA reactor can drop your PH, you may have to tweak it a bit. And the Photo period is ok to but really I'm not sure how well that works. It does have its benifits but as soon as you can get your Phosphate problem under control you will be on your way. I bet you will see some difference in a week or two. Oh and I use the mini jet 404 to feed the reactor works great for me. you don't have to mess with the flow it bubbles the phosban perfectly.and dosen't push the media out. I think I have covered everything. Just be patient and good luck.

[MADJABJOE]

Timinator,

Thanks for your help! I live in Iowa and there is practically no help for marine tanks. Everybody thinks I'm crazy if I talk about things called cyno or chato etc. I appreciate all you have done. I am not one to give up but on this challange I was at my end. I have been wanting to buy a phosphate reactor for awhile now so this will work out great. I built my sump in my basement fish room and it seems that every time I have a problem I end up buying a new piece of equipment. My fish room is starting to look like a Meth Lab. Do you know if you can post small videos of your tank on RC? I have never had anyone with experiance evaluate my tank. I know it would just be a visual look but some times that is all it takes to find a quick fix to a big problem later in time.

Let me know your thoughts

[tmz]

Cynobacteria indicates high CO2. Frequently the introduction of a calcium reactor which doses CO2 laden water sparks an out break. See my earlier reply and check the listed thread for potential solutions.

[Timinator]

I agree Tom but the bacteria does not soley rely on CO2 fixation but will thrive with DOC. From what I read from Madjab(Joe) is that he has several things that may be going on. Actually I'm sure you know that Lighting can help it grow in certain NM ranges, the new live rock (which I meant to ask you about Joe) Nitrogen,Nitrates,low flow,low PH,and so on. But it soundS like to me he has got Phosphate problems and if he is dripping Kalk into his skimmer I think he is already taking up any CO2.

[Timinator]

I'm sorry not Kalk but Effluient into the skimmer. Hey Joe you can post video not sure how you do it I haven't tried it. I know how the Meth lab feels I have made the same comment to friends. I hope that the reactor helps you greatly your on the right track with the flow, and how old are your lights? It certainly will speed up the progress if you do cut them back. I never did with the reactor but thinking on it it would have probably sped up the process I'm sure. But still I stand by cutting the lights alone are not going to solve a Cyno problem. And your very welcome man glad to help you.

[tmz]

Terminator, The cyno can use the doc but CO2 is used when it does. CO2 is the most significant limiting factor. Since a calcium reactor was added recently with a ph drop and low nitrate, excess CO2 is the prime suspect,in my opinion. Madjabjoe, When I added my calcium reactor I noticed a ph drop and some cyno growth,the limewater drip ended both.

[Timinator]

I agree with you Tom but don't you think that since the left over C02 is being taken up by the Skimmer that DOC/Phospates are the problem? And if its a dual chamber Ca reactor (which we don't know that yet) it is more of a DOC/Phosphate problem relying on the new live rock he has added. And the Kalk that you drip binds the Phosphate and help with that probem, not so much on the CO2. My conclusion is that we have to starve the Bacteria to death and start at the beginning of the problem not the process of the CO2 at which they fix themselves to. If his skimmer is working efficently and the DOC/Phospates are taken out of the water column then the Cyno is going to starve to death and not have a fixation to CO2. The bacteria is always present in our reefs so good skimming to Get rid of the DOC and a phosphate reactor to get the rest in my opinion is the way to go. It has always been asumed that Cyno relies on the CO2

[Timinator]

Sorry Tom I somehow hit the submit button again! But anyways

[Timinator]

Did it again, OK as I was getting to, it was asumed that Cyno relied soley on Photosynthesis for growth and reproduction up until a few years ago. Not solely on the fixation of CO2 but can and will thrive in enviroments that are rich in organic matter. So good skimming and the use of of a compound that oxidizes organic matter out of the water so it isn't a food source anymore. Most of the Cyno's that dont use DOC are fresh water types. These findings are backed up by Researchers like Sturart and Fay,Fog,Carr and Whitton and others.

[Timinator]

Hey Joe, How new is your rock? I know you said that the Cyno was there before you added it but we could be battleing the problem double time. Plus how old is your lights? And what kind of skimmer do you have.

[internexus]

Shut off your actinic and day lights for 3 full days and enjoy.

[tmz]

Originally posted by Timinator
I agree with you Tom but don't you think that since the left over C02 is being taken up by the Skimmer that DOC/Phospates are the problem? And if its a dual chamber Ca reactor (which we don't know that yet) it is more of a DOC/Phosphate problem relying on the new live rock he has added. And the Kalk that you drip binds the Phosphate and help with that probem, not so much on the CO2. My conclusion is that we have to starve the Bacteria to death and start at the beginning of the problem not the process of the CO2 at which they fix themselves to. If his skimmer is working efficently and the DOC/Phospates are taken out of the water column then the Cyno is going to starve to death and not have a fixation to CO2. The bacteria is always present in our reefs so good skimming to Get rid of the DOC and a phosphate reactor to get the rest in my opinion is the way to go. It has always been asumed that Cyno relies on the CO2

Two sides of the same coin, perhaps.
The limewater(calcium hydroxide) eats up CO2 as it forms bicarbonate and carbonate. The hydroxide is the alkalinity part of limewater,it binds with CO2 to form bi carbonate and carbonate which are usable by corals. Some folks even have to doseCO2 to provide enough for this process without a perilous ph drop. To many the balance between a calcium reactor and limewater dosing is viewed as ideal when properly balanced.
Kalk does precipitate phosphate and if you have your drip tube near your skimmer intake there is a good chance your skimmer will export some but the CO2 it absorbs is part of it's very being as carbonate.
He has a ph drop coincident with the introduction of a carbon dioxide doser(the calcium reactor) His test show low nitrate. The CO2 will equilibriate with the air if there is good air exchange but it will hang around in lthe water for a while(evident in low ph) and the cyno will use it if something else doesn't get it first. In either case dom or CO2 some of the solutions are the same: dose limewater and raise ph,skim heavily.
I don't believe phosphate contributes to cynobacteria growth in any significant way. It fuels filamentous algae and inhibits calcification which are reason to control it but not to my knowledgre does it grow cynobacteria. Co2 does.
Happy Reefing

[MADJABJOE]

Timinator and TMZ

I replaced my metal halides 2 months ago. I use 10K usiuo (sp)?
I have an Aqua C EV180 protein Skimmer.
My new addition of live rock curred in my basement for over 2 month is was placed in my tank 1 mo ago.

I have not see more cyno groth since the addition of my live rock or reactor. Same quantities but very persistent though.

I am not able to hyperlink this on a reply but this address will direct you to a short Video. (Cut and Past) You will see the cyno covering the sand and rocks a bit towards the problem.

http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/e...t=MVI_0750.flv

Here is a nother weird question: I have been for awhile now been cliping algea sheets to a cliping and hanging them in the water. Every time I go to add a new sheet, a folded piece of the agea is never eaten becasue it is traped in between the pincher of the clip. It smells terrible when removed like amonia. That could be part of my problem.. Any thoughs?


Here is what I know so far:
1. Remove or prevent DOC - Water Changes, oxidizers, less food
2. Limit Co2 - Driping effluent into Skimmer, Going to Drip Kalk
3. Drip Kalk - In process
4. Reduce Lighting - Done 1 hr less all bulds
5. Increase water flow - adding power heads to front of tank
6. Remove Phosphate - In process phosphate remover
7. Water Changes
8. Refugium - Done have a huge one with lots Halimida and Chato
9. Remove cyno with baster - Starting to do

I would like to collect a list of remedies so please add to my list so I can start systematically work through them and compile my results for future out breaks.

[tmz]

You can add:
open water and ripple.
consider wether your home may be high in CO2,if so you may wan't to get fresh air to your skimmer intake. I run a plastic tubing out o the basement and attach my venturi intake tube to it.
clean your rock from time to time /blow it off with that turkey baster to supplement your flow and to put detrius in suspension.

I put clips of dried seaweed in three of the tanks in my system daily. I do wipe off the clip with a paper towel evry couple of days to remove the decaying material.
If you use frozen food be sure to decant the packing water.

[shikhyung]

Originally posted by uscharalph
Suck out what you can wit a turkey baster. How old are you light bulbs?

I change light bulbs (T5), and looks like it got worse, Cyano bloom more and more bubles...Now thinking to add GFO. Is any GFO will do the job?

[tmz]

I don't think GFO or phosphate remover will have much if any effect on cynobacteria. If phosphate is high it is a good idea to remove it for many other good reasons.

[shikhyung]

Can't tell PO4 is hight or not since it always 00, but no amonia, no Ni. pH is somewhat 8, can't tell the different color at this range.