Calcium 330 Alkalinity 7.5 meq/L

three fish · 12/01/2007, 01:59 PM

I have always been a strictly water change type of aquarium keeper and rarely added anything to my water. I want to start caring for some more demanding corals (sps) and I want to learn the calcium, alkalinity, PH dance. I am coming up with some weird numbers. Here is my setup and dosing amounts:

- 72 gallon bowfront set up for 3 months
- All original tank water came from my torn down 180 set up for 7 years.
- 60-80 lbs live rock six years old
- (2) 175 watt MH Ushio 10k
- Remora skimmer with MJ 1200 (my skimmer needs to be bigger)
- 1/2" - 1" Southdown Playsand
- Yellow Tang, Blue Tang, Pair of True Perculas, Orchid Dottyback
- Zenia, Buttons, Star polyps, mushrooms

Starting tank peramiters on 10-26-07

Salinity 1.025
Temp 79
PH 8.1
Alkalinity 3 meq/L
Calcium 300

These are the only test kits I have right now.

I started dripping kalk for top off water, about 1/2 gallon a day and did this for 2 weeks. New peramiters:

Alk. 5.5 Meq/L
Calcium 330
PH 8.3

Stopped kalk drip because Alk was climbing and read this article:

http://web.archive.org/web/200211270...v2002/chem.htm

Which pointed me towards Calcium Chloride to correct the calcium level and allow the alkalinity to drop on its own. I have been dosing Turbo Calcium since 11-17-07 at the recommended dosage of 1/8 tsp per 50 gallons once a day. I was prepared to wait a while to bring the calcium up so I dosed and waited, dosed and waited. After a week with my calcium still hovering around 330 I started 1/4 tsp per 50 gallons twice a day. In addidtion I have added the recommended dose of Strontium&Molybdenum from Kent one capfull of the 8oz. bottle every 4 days. Calcium on 11-26 was still 320-330, PH 8.1, Alkalinity 5.5 meq/L.

I did a 20 gallon water change on 11-27, tap water treated for Chlorine and copper, IO salt and I added 2 tbs of C-Balance 2 part calcium, Alk to the new saltwater. Did my water change as usual and Calcium was up to 340. I then started to add 1/2 tsp Turbo Calcium twice a day thinking this would make the Calcium bump up a noticable amount. After 2 days of this my calcium was still 340-350 but Alkalinity shot up to 7.5 meq/L. I stopped everything and here I am.

Test kits are new. Salifert for Calcium and Seachem PH/Alkalinity. Seachem gives a reference bottle to test the test kit. It was one drop away from the reference Alkalinity.

Today my calcium is still at 330 and Alkalinity is 6 meq/L.

Again, I have had saltwater for 12 years total but this is the first time I have really tried to delv into the chemistry side of it. So.........I'm a newbie

Thanks.

JESUS VILLASEÑO · 12/01/2007, 03:35 PM

you definitely need to make a 50% water change and anothe in a week, start dosing two part additive in the first water change., hope this helps.

USC-fan · 12/01/2007, 03:55 PM

I would pick up a magnesium test kit.

you can then use this site to help you bring your levels up.
http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html

SaltyDr · 12/01/2007, 04:12 PM

The dosing regimen of turbo calcium is for maintenance. You need to get your levels up first. My guess is your tank is using up whatever you are adding. I'd start adding one teaspoon a day to get your levels up. Yes, and check your magnesium level.

bertoni · 12/01/2007, 05:43 PM

Is a pH buffer being dosed into the tank? The rise in alkalinity doesn't make any sense. Maybe a testing issue?

three fish · 12/01/2007, 08:48 PM

JESUS: A water change would definetley help but I need to understand what I did to get here so I don't do it again.

USC-fan: I will be ording a Mag test kit tomorrow. I like the calculator but it gives me an error when I try to put in a high Alkalinity. It says the desired alkalinity needs to be higher than the current one. I will try it again.

bertoni: The only out of the ordinary thing I have done was zap some aptaisa with a kalk paste and syringe about a week ago. I used about 2 ml worth. I would have expected the PH to go up but not Alkalinity. The test kit is what I am leaning towards. I will be ordering a new one from a different company when I order my Mag kit. Not that Seachem is bad I just need another comparison.

Throughout this entire process all polyps are fully open and zenia are pumping away. I have not had a calcium buildup on impellers at this time either. One thought, does heat effect test kit reagents????? I keep my kits in relative close proximity to my MH ballast, about 6 inches.

Thanks for the help! Any other theories?

SaltyDr.: I thought I have always read that Calcium Hydroxide (Kalkwasser) was to maintain and Calcium Chloride (Turbo Calcium) was for correction?

USC-fan · 12/01/2007, 09:01 PM

make sure you are using the correct measurement....ex. meg/l, dlk, ppm.

ryan scott · 12/01/2007, 09:08 PM

i have had the same problem some time ago and the above comment was correct for me, make sure that the calcium buffer will rasie the level not just a normal buffer, for example I use seachem reef complete to get my levels up to where i want them then just use another product the rest of the time to keep them at 420-440ppm
cheers

bertoni · 12/01/2007, 09:13 PM

The kalk on the Aiptasia would raise pH, alkalinity, and calcium, but it doesn't explain the rise in alkalinity relative to calcium. Lye would do that. I don't trust the test kits, at this point.

three fish · 12/01/2007, 09:41 PM

ryan scott: Are you referring to SaltyDr.'s post? So Turbo Calcium is more of a normal calcium buffer and Reef Complete will raise my levels? Will it only raise Calcium? I will research this product.

bertoni: I will update this thread as soon as I get some new test kits.

Thanks again!

jlinzmaier · 12/01/2007, 11:04 PM

I agree with the concern regarding the accuracy of the test kits!!!!

I've had many problems with Salifert kits lately (review the Salifert forum).

When I got into reefkeeping I started using seachem and found them to be inaccurate after about 3-6 mo.

Since the recent Salifert kit fiasco I've ordered ELOS kits. Heard lots of great things about them and they seem to be trustworthy.

At this point don't try correcting any problems until you confirm the readings with a second or third kit or you may create more problems in the long run.

I would do a 30-50% water change at least once and then repeat in 3-4 days just to be safe.

I second the thought about checking the magnesium level. There is a direct correlation between mag and ca.

What type of salt do you use?? You could mix up a fresh batch of saltwater and test your kits against them. I happen to know IO salt at a sg of 1.026 has a ca of approx 400 and an alk of 4.0meq.

Test kits create lots of problems when they give false readings so always double check your results before you make any drastic changes or add additional supplements.

bertoni · 12/02/2007, 12:10 AM

Reef Complete and Turbo Calcium are mostly identical. I'd pick the cheaper one.

three fish · 12/02/2007, 01:52 PM

I use IO salt but I didn't know the values of the new mix. Thanks jlinzmaier, that's reassuring.

Magnesium test kits are scarce! Many places are out of stock. I ordered a Seachem from Dr's along with API for Calcium, PH, Phospate, Nitrate and Alkalinity.

three fish · 12/05/2007, 10:54 PM

My new test kits arrived and I tested my water. Here are the results:

NEW Seachem Alkalinity 5.5 meq/L
NEW Seachem Magnesium 950-1000 ppm
NEW API Calcium 320 ppm
NEW API PH 8.2 at 5:00 P.M.
NEW API Alkalinity 13dKH or 4.64 Meq/L
NEW API Nitrate 0 (hard to believe)
NEW Phosphate 0 (also hard to believe)

2 month old kit Seachem PH 8.1
2 month old kit Seachem Alkalinity 5 Meq/L
2 month old kit Salifert Calcium 320 ppm

So it would appear my original kits were testing correctly. I see Mag is low. I honestly tested Nitrate and Phosphate twice and came up to zero on both. I do have a good amount of algea growing.

My plan is to do a water change first. I will get my Mag up to 1250-1300 then start Turbo Calcium again.

Any other recommendations? Thanks.

jlinzmaier · 12/05/2007, 11:20 PM

Even though phosphate and nitrate tested at 0, if your having algae growth, there is still phosphate and nitrate present - it's just being taken up at a rate equal to the rate of introduction. The algea is using it as soon as it's available which will allow a test kit to show 0. I'd utilize some macroalgae to help with the microalgae problem. Chaeto seems to be the most common and most effective. Not sure if you have a fuge set up or not but I'd be happy to donate some chaeto if you need it.

There is a bit of a discrepency between your alk kits (API vs Seachem). This is a problem that will likely not be solved any time soon (as a group we need to put pressure on the manufacturers to provide us with better quality and more accurate test kits!!). A person can buy 5 different alk kits and get 5 very different readings. That drives me nuts!!!!!! Unfortunately I don't have any magical answers for discrepencies among different alk kits. Maybe someone else has suggestions. The best advice I could give would be to pick the test kit that you feel most comfortable with and go with it. You could test the alk kits against controls but I'm not sure I trust the quality of control solutions any better than the kits themselves. In general I'm simply disgusted with test kits.

I've ordered ELOS because they advertise that their kits are validated using the NIST (national institute of standard and technology). Haven't received them yet but I'm curious to see their quality.

In regards to the mag and ca. I agree with your plan. Get the mag up to 1300 and continue with the turbo ca to get the ca lvl to 400.

Test diligently!!!

Jeremy

bertoni · 12/05/2007, 11:59 PM

I agree with raising the magnesium. I'd probably do that in three doses, a day apart. The calcium dosing is a fine idea, too. I'd stop all other dosing for the moment, and let alkalinity fall on its own. Once the parameters are all in reasonable shape, we can work from there.

three fish · 12/06/2007, 06:11 AM

Jeremy:
I do not have a fug but they are in the plans. Thanks for the info on phasphates and algea. I was shocked to see zero but your explaination makes it clear. I would love some cheato when I am ready. Are you planning to go to Dr.s Foster and Smith on March 15th with FVRC?

bertoni:
Thanks again for your advise. I trust your opinions.

12/01/2007, 01:59 PM	#1
three fish Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Omro, WI Posts: 115	Calcium 330 Alkalinity 7.5 meq/L I have always been a strictly water change type of aquarium keeper and rarely added anything to my water. I want to start caring for some more demanding corals (sps) and I want to learn the calcium, alkalinity, PH dance. I am coming up with some weird numbers. Here is my setup and dosing amounts: - 72 gallon bowfront set up for 3 months - All original tank water came from my torn down 180 set up for 7 years. - 60-80 lbs live rock six years old - (2) 175 watt MH Ushio 10k - Remora skimmer with MJ 1200 (my skimmer needs to be bigger) - 1/2" - 1" Southdown Playsand - Yellow Tang, Blue Tang, Pair of True Perculas, Orchid Dottyback - Zenia, Buttons, Star polyps, mushrooms Starting tank peramiters on 10-26-07 Salinity 1.025 Temp 79 PH 8.1 Alkalinity 3 meq/L Calcium 300 These are the only test kits I have right now. I started dripping kalk for top off water, about 1/2 gallon a day and did this for 2 weeks. New peramiters: Alk. 5.5 Meq/L Calcium 330 PH 8.3 Stopped kalk drip because Alk was climbing and read this article: http://web.archive.org/web/200211270...v2002/chem.htm Which pointed me towards Calcium Chloride to correct the calcium level and allow the alkalinity to drop on its own. I have been dosing Turbo Calcium since 11-17-07 at the recommended dosage of 1/8 tsp per 50 gallons once a day. I was prepared to wait a while to bring the calcium up so I dosed and waited, dosed and waited. After a week with my calcium still hovering around 330 I started 1/4 tsp per 50 gallons twice a day. In addidtion I have added the recommended dose of Strontium&Molybdenum from Kent one capfull of the 8oz. bottle every 4 days. Calcium on 11-26 was still 320-330, PH 8.1, Alkalinity 5.5 meq/L. I did a 20 gallon water change on 11-27, tap water treated for Chlorine and copper, IO salt and I added 2 tbs of C-Balance 2 part calcium, Alk to the new saltwater. Did my water change as usual and Calcium was up to 340. I then started to add 1/2 tsp Turbo Calcium twice a day thinking this would make the Calcium bump up a noticable amount. After 2 days of this my calcium was still 340-350 but Alkalinity shot up to 7.5 meq/L. I stopped everything and here I am. Test kits are new. Salifert for Calcium and Seachem PH/Alkalinity. Seachem gives a reference bottle to test the test kit. It was one drop away from the reference Alkalinity. Today my calcium is still at 330 and Alkalinity is 6 meq/L. Again, I have had saltwater for 12 years total but this is the first time I have really tried to delv into the chemistry side of it. So.........I'm a newbie Thanks.

12/01/2007, 05:43 PM	#5
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Is a pH buffer being dosed into the tank? The rise in alkalinity doesn't make any sense. Maybe a testing issue? __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

12/01/2007, 09:08 PM	#8
ryan scott Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 80	i have had the same problem some time ago and the above comment was correct for me, make sure that the calcium buffer will rasie the level not just a normal buffer, for example I use seachem reef complete to get my levels up to where i want them then just use another product the rest of the time to keep them at 420-440ppm cheers __________________ 620 litre main tank with 150 L sump Aquamedic aqua sunlight 3x 250watt with 4 T5 80watt and moon light on light computer Current Tank Info: 620 litre main tank with a 150 litre Sump

12/01/2007, 09:13 PM	#9
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	The kalk on the Aiptasia would raise pH, alkalinity, and calcium, but it doesn't explain the rise in alkalinity relative to calcium. Lye would do that. I don't trust the test kits, at this point. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

12/02/2007, 12:10 AM	#12
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Reef Complete and Turbo Calcium are mostly identical. I'd pick the cheaper one. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

12/01/2007, 03:35 PM	#2
JESUS VILLASEÑO Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: MEXICO CITY Posts: 52	you definitely need to make a 50% water change and anothe in a week, start dosing two part additive in the first water change., hope this helps.

12/01/2007, 03:55 PM	#3
USC-fan Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,626	I would pick up a magnesium test kit. you can then use this site to help you bring your levels up. http://reef.diesyst.com/flashcalc/flashcalc.html

12/01/2007, 04:12 PM	#4
SaltyDr Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southwest Florida Posts: 1,191	The dosing regimen of turbo calcium is for maintenance. You need to get your levels up first. My guess is your tank is using up whatever you are adding. I'd start adding one teaspoon a day to get your levels up. Yes, and check your magnesium level.

12/01/2007, 08:48 PM	#6
three fish Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Omro, WI Posts: 115	JESUS: A water change would definetley help but I need to understand what I did to get here so I don't do it again. USC-fan: I will be ording a Mag test kit tomorrow. I like the calculator but it gives me an error when I try to put in a high Alkalinity. It says the desired alkalinity needs to be higher than the current one. I will try it again. bertoni: The only out of the ordinary thing I have done was zap some aptaisa with a kalk paste and syringe about a week ago. I used about 2 ml worth. I would have expected the PH to go up but not Alkalinity. The test kit is what I am leaning towards. I will be ordering a new one from a different company when I order my Mag kit. Not that Seachem is bad I just need another comparison. Throughout this entire process all polyps are fully open and zenia are pumping away. I have not had a calcium buildup on impellers at this time either. One thought, does heat effect test kit reagents????? I keep my kits in relative close proximity to my MH ballast, about 6 inches. Thanks for the help! Any other theories? SaltyDr.: I thought I have always read that Calcium Hydroxide (Kalkwasser) was to maintain and Calcium Chloride (Turbo Calcium) was for correction?

12/01/2007, 09:01 PM	#7
USC-fan Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 3,626	make sure you are using the correct measurement....ex. meg/l, dlk, ppm.

12/01/2007, 09:41 PM	#10
three fish Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Omro, WI Posts: 115	ryan scott: Are you referring to SaltyDr.'s post? So Turbo Calcium is more of a normal calcium buffer and Reef Complete will raise my levels? Will it only raise Calcium? I will research this product. bertoni: I will update this thread as soon as I get some new test kits. Thanks again!

12/01/2007, 11:04 PM	#11
jlinzmaier Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Edgar Wisconsin Posts: 2,094	I agree with the concern regarding the accuracy of the test kits!!!! I've had many problems with Salifert kits lately (review the Salifert forum). When I got into reefkeeping I started using seachem and found them to be inaccurate after about 3-6 mo. Since the recent Salifert kit fiasco I've ordered ELOS kits. Heard lots of great things about them and they seem to be trustworthy. At this point don't try correcting any problems until you confirm the readings with a second or third kit or you may create more problems in the long run. I would do a 30-50% water change at least once and then repeat in 3-4 days just to be safe. I second the thought about checking the magnesium level. There is a direct correlation between mag and ca. What type of salt do you use?? You could mix up a fresh batch of saltwater and test your kits against them. I happen to know IO salt at a sg of 1.026 has a ca of approx 400 and an alk of 4.0meq. Test kits create lots of problems when they give false readings so always double check your results before you make any drastic changes or add additional supplements.

12/02/2007, 01:52 PM	#13
three fish Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Omro, WI Posts: 115	I use IO salt but I didn't know the values of the new mix. Thanks jlinzmaier, that's reassuring. Magnesium test kits are scarce! Many places are out of stock. I ordered a Seachem from Dr's along with API for Calcium, PH, Phospate, Nitrate and Alkalinity.

12/05/2007, 10:54 PM	#14
three fish Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Omro, WI Posts: 115	My new test kits arrived and I tested my water. Here are the results: NEW Seachem Alkalinity 5.5 meq/L NEW Seachem Magnesium 950-1000 ppm NEW API Calcium 320 ppm NEW API PH 8.2 at 5:00 P.M. NEW API Alkalinity 13dKH or 4.64 Meq/L NEW API Nitrate 0 (hard to believe) NEW Phosphate 0 (also hard to believe) 2 month old kit Seachem PH 8.1 2 month old kit Seachem Alkalinity 5 Meq/L 2 month old kit Salifert Calcium 320 ppm So it would appear my original kits were testing correctly. I see Mag is low. I honestly tested Nitrate and Phosphate twice and came up to zero on both. I do have a good amount of algea growing. My plan is to do a water change first. I will get my Mag up to 1250-1300 then start Turbo Calcium again. Any other recommendations? Thanks.

12/05/2007, 11:20 PM	#15
jlinzmaier Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Edgar Wisconsin Posts: 2,094	Even though phosphate and nitrate tested at 0, if your having algae growth, there is still phosphate and nitrate present - it's just being taken up at a rate equal to the rate of introduction. The algea is using it as soon as it's available which will allow a test kit to show 0. I'd utilize some macroalgae to help with the microalgae problem. Chaeto seems to be the most common and most effective. Not sure if you have a fuge set up or not but I'd be happy to donate some chaeto if you need it. There is a bit of a discrepency between your alk kits (API vs Seachem). This is a problem that will likely not be solved any time soon (as a group we need to put pressure on the manufacturers to provide us with better quality and more accurate test kits!!). A person can buy 5 different alk kits and get 5 very different readings. That drives me nuts!!!!!! Unfortunately I don't have any magical answers for discrepencies among different alk kits. Maybe someone else has suggestions. The best advice I could give would be to pick the test kit that you feel most comfortable with and go with it. You could test the alk kits against controls but I'm not sure I trust the quality of control solutions any better than the kits themselves. In general I'm simply disgusted with test kits. I've ordered ELOS because they advertise that their kits are validated using the NIST (national institute of standard and technology). Haven't received them yet but I'm curious to see their quality. In regards to the mag and ca. I agree with your plan. Get the mag up to 1300 and continue with the turbo ca to get the ca lvl to 400. Test diligently!!! Jeremy

12/05/2007, 11:59 PM	#16
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I agree with raising the magnesium. I'd probably do that in three doses, a day apart. The calcium dosing is a fine idea, too. I'd stop all other dosing for the moment, and let alkalinity fall on its own. Once the parameters are all in reasonable shape, we can work from there. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

12/06/2007, 06:11 AM	#17
three fish Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Omro, WI Posts: 115	Jeremy: I do not have a fug but they are in the plans. Thanks for the info on phasphates and algea. I was shocked to see zero but your explaination makes it clear. I would love some cheato when I am ready. Are you planning to go to Dr.s Foster and Smith on March 15th with FVRC? bertoni: Thanks again for your advise. I trust your opinions.