Fish: straight home in the shipping bag, or hold at the store?

[MrSpiffy]

My LFS will potentially have a couple fish coming that I've requested: a McCosker's Wrasse and a Brazilian Flameback Pygmy Angel. My question is this:

The manager said he could give me a discount if I were to take the wrasse home in the original shipping bag, unopened, straight from the supplier. The angel he would hold for me at the store until I could put it into QT, which is after I QT the wrasse.

Would you take the wrasse, and possibly even the angel straight home in the original bags without touching a drop of the store's water, and risk a potential issue during acclimation? Or would you prefer the store hold them for several days before purchasing, to ensure a good specimen out of the bag, but also risk the possibility of introducing ich while in the store's tanks? And what would be your reasoning behind this? (BTW, there's not guarantee on SW livestock from this LFS.)

Thanks! Any feedback and opinions are greatly appreciated.

[landlord]

I voted Yes. I believe that you should have had a choice for "Depends on the LFS" The guy at mine is a great fellow, very easy to work with, does custom orders to boot. However his tanks are kind of spooky.

In any case he gives a 7 day guarantee on fish whether or not I get there when the shipment comes in.

In any case I just ordered some anthias from the guy, when the shipping bags were taken out of the box we noticed that 1 of the 4 was dead.

QT is where its at!

BTW you gotta find an LFS with a guarantee SW fish can get spendy, but I'm sure you know that

Take Care --landlord

[Racing1]

I voted to take them home. You are better of acclimating them at home than the lfs. Chances are they will do better for you as you can put them in QT where as the lfs will just put them in a tank and hope they make it.

I also agree on finding an LFS with some sort of gurantee, if not you would be better off to order online with a guarantee....

[Travis L. Stevens]

It completely depends on the store. I'm lucky enough that the stores that I shop at are top notch in knowledge and customer service. I would have no problem with them holding a fish for me. If your only choice is a store that doesn't have very safe acclimation practices and "infested" tanks, then your best bet is to take it home directly. Regardless the case, always QT, but at least it will be exposed to the least amount of hazards as possible.

There's also another side of it, too. It depends on the fish. Is the fish typically hardy, expensive, or is it known to be finicky? If the fish is difficult to care for (and you trust the store), have the store hang on to it to see if it starts eating and/or survives. This way if it dies, it's not money lost from your pocket. If it is a hardy fish then take it home if the store is willing to give you a garuntee or help cope/cover any costs if the new specimen meets its demise.

In your particular situation, I would take them both home and QT them together. This is rather risky as if one has an infection, the other can get it. But you're already questioning your stores methods of acclimation and water quality, therefore you should take it upon yourself to see these animals get the best care possible, especially since you requested them.

[MrSpiffy]

I'm not so much questioning their acclimation practices, from what the store manager told me they recommend. But I think that perhaps they could acclimate a bit longer than they already do, which may only be an hour or so in length.

They did say I'm not required to purchase them, as they'll likely sell anyway. So, if I let the LFS put them in their tanks, I could observe them before making a final decision (although, probably not for a couple weeks' time...). But their tanks, particularly the ones they'd probably put these two in, tend to have some ich issues, as they also usually house tangs that probably have ich. So, I'd be more concerned about them getting ich during holding at the store, even if their tanks do contain copper. I just feel I have more control over the situation at home, and I have no idea how they'll treat the fish at the store, should something go wrong (parasite/disease, injury, not eating, etc.). I know if it dies at the LFS, they'd replace it (no refunds, though...). But I think once I take it home they probably wouldn't guarantee it, although I'll certainly ask.

Most LFS's don't guarantee SW livestock around here. I'd be surprised if any did, actually. Sad, really... but I don't blame them. Too many newbies to SW that don't do their homework to take on that kind of risk.

[Travis L. Stevens]

I'm not so much questioning their acclimation practices, from what the store manager told me they recommend. But I think that perhaps they could acclimate a bit longer than they already do, which may only be an hour or so in length.

Sounds like questioning to me. But to each his own. The point is, his acclimation process isn't what you prefer and you worry about the health of the animal. That's a good thing. Take it home, and do what you feel is right to prevent any undue stress.

In any situation, it doesn't matter what tank at a store they've been in. If a new arrival is placed in to a tank that hasn't been fallow for at least 6 weeks with no new arrivals (inverts, corals, rocks, etc) or a tank specifically designed to combat ich (copper water), then it is risking an ich infection regardless if the previous inhabitants were tangs or not. Tangs typically show signs of ich faster than other fish, but it doesn't mean that only tangs get it (as you know). Ich is a parasite and can ride in on their hosts (fish) without showing any outward signs.

[OranguTang]

I dont even buy fish from LFS anymore, never have had good luck.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Originally posted by JediReefer
I dont even buy fish from LFS anymore, never have had good luck.

Where do you get your fish then?

[OranguTang]

Online, or from a local reefer if a nice fish pops up. Same with corals.

[John Zillmer]

I'd leave that McCosker's at the LFS for a week -- if it is going to die, it will be from a long ride in an airplane, IME. After the shipping stress is past, they are pretty hardy.

[MrSpiffy]

Originally posted by John Zillmer
I'd leave that McCosker's at the LFS for a week -- if it is going to die, it will be from a long ride in an airplane, IME. After the shipping stress is past, they are pretty hardy.

I agree that the shipping can definitely put stress on the fish, which is why I'm a bit torn as to what to do. Just to provide the info I got from what the LFS manager said, here's their supplier's shipping method:

LFS places an order (typically Monday or Tuesday). Vendor locates the fish. Vendor then bags up the fish and boxes the order around roughly 2am or 3am on the west coast (probably San Fran or San Diego, can't remember which). Boxes get loaded onto the plane at around 5am and flown into Detroit or Minneapolis, then transferred to Milwaukee (where I am). LFS goes and picks up the shipment, typically beginning acclimation around 5pm or so that evening. So, the fish have been in bags for about 14 hours. He said he's been very happy with his supplier, and typically has very, very few DOA's.

I just worry. It's in my nature to want the best for these guys. And I could see a LFS not providing the best care possible because they're spread out between all their tanks.

It sounds like the majority are saying to take them home. I don't have tanks set up to house both of them right now. I only have a 10G up and ready. I can get a 20H up pretty quickly for the angel, though, if I scrape it out and sterilize it (unless you think they'd be fine together in a 10G... I'd hesitate to do that, though.). I'd need to make the water for it, though. I can steal some from my display tank. But not enough to fill the tank. I could get some from a grocery store, as I have 2 jugs for water. So, it's doable, I guess. I could just get pre-mixed water from the LFS to kick things off, too.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Originally posted by JediReefer
Online, or from a local reefer if a nice fish pops up. Same with corals.

*scratches head* I don't get it. They all come from the same place with the same stresses. What would make online any different than LFS in regards to fish. Heck, you don't even get to see them swimming or eating or interacting with tank mates. Corals is a different story. I definitely buy locally with corals from people I know and trust.

LFS places an order (typically Monday or Tuesday). Vendor locates the fish. Vendor then bags up the fish and boxes the order around roughly 2am or 3am on the west coast (probably San Fran or San Diego, can't remember which). Boxes get loaded onto the plane at around 5am and flown into Detroit or Minneapolis, then transferred to Milwaukee (where I am). LFS goes and picks up the shipment, typically beginning acclimation around 5pm or so that evening. So, the fish have been in bags for about 14 hours. He said he's been very happy with his supplier, and typically has very, very few DOA's.

That shipping method is pretty standard and not so bad. If you're going to place worry anywhere, you need to place worry in the wholesaler and collector. How are the fish collected? Can they prove their collection practices? How are they shipped to the wholesaler? How does the wholesaler hold them? How long are they at the wholesaler? Does the wholesaler purposely starve them prior to shipment to reduce waste? Are the shipments packed with proper temperature control?

These are all factors that have a larger impact on the initial health of the fish than a 14 ride in a box on a plane. I've drove healthy, full, captive raised animals many hours with livestock in bags before and the stress level of them are drastically lower than those that come in on shipments from the wild. My point is, a healthy fish is going to take shipping better than a sketchy one, and there is no garuntee that the specimen you're getting is healthy before being shipped to the store. So don't rely on the wholesaler-retailer chain for animal quality.

Okay, if this was me with all the information that you've provided and with a mindframe such as yours, I would plan to take both fish home with me the same day and place them in the same QT. Upon arriving at the store, have your heart set on taking the angel home first as these are fairly hardy and take shipping rather well. Take a look over the wrasse if you can. If he looks stressed beyond normal shipping, skinny, or otherwise inactive, let the responsibility fall on the store owner in recooperating it. If it seems good to go, then take it home, too. Of course, don't neglect the angel if it doesn't look good. Neither the angel or the wrasse are particularly prone to any outward infections, but internal ones wouldn't typically be detectable.

[OranguTang]

Originally posted by Travis L. Stevens
[B]*scratches head* I don't get it. They all come from the same place with the same stresses. What would make online any different than LFS in regards to fish. Heck, you don't even get to see them swimming or eating or interacting with tank mates. Corals is a different story. I definitely buy locally with corals from people I know and trust.

I believe the quality of life over at LiveAquaria is FAR ahead of that in the LFS here. No signs of stress, ich, they all eat. I have only had problems with fish from the LFS. They all come from the same place before they enter the LFS tanks...yes. I would buy a fish that was still in the distributors packaging, but not from the LFS tank.

Heck everytime I see a shipment at the LFS I dont even see them get acclimated, and that isnt just one store.

[MrSpiffy]

Thanks a lot for the advice, Travis. I'll make sure to look them over well at the store before I decide to bring them home or not.

I'm guessing that a 10G isn't going to be very good to keep these two in. I'll probably go ahead and set up the 20H as a QT. I can probably use the 10G to hold them until I get the 20 up and running. But you think they'll do fine together in QT? I don't anticipate any problems, but you never know, I guess.

[OranguTang]

Sorry to jack your thread btw! Good luck with the fish.

[MrSpiffy]

No problem!

Does anyone have any "best acclimation practices" for a situation like this? I saw a short flash video on saltwaterfish.com, but was hoping to get as much info as possible.

[Travis L. Stevens]

Originally posted by JediReefer
I believe the quality of life over at LiveAquaria is FAR ahead of that in the LFS here. No signs of stress, ich, they all eat. I have only had problems with fish from the LFS. They all come from the same place before they enter the LFS tanks...yes. I would buy a fish that was still in the distributors packaging, but not from the LFS tank.

Heck everytime I see a shipment at the LFS I dont even see them get acclimated, and that isnt just one store.

Man! Really?! Ya, in your case I would probably shop online, too. Sorry you don't have any good stores around you. I guess Oklahoma is just spoiled.

Originally posted by MrSpiffy
Thanks a lot for the advice, Travis. I'll make sure to look them over well at the store before I decide to bring them home or not.

I'm guessing that a 10G isn't going to be very good to keep these two in. I'll probably go ahead and set up the 20H as a QT. I can probably use the 10G to hold them until I get the 20 up and running. But you think they'll do fine together in QT? I don't anticipate any problems, but you never know, I guess.

I would try to upgrade to the 20H, but I don't think it's crucial. Depending on their size, they're only going to be in there for 4-6 weeks under observation, or longer if they are sick and need treatments. Afterwards, they'll be going to their final home. In the end, I would be more worried about making sure they have ample places to hide. You could buy about 20-30 different PVC fittings of various sizes and shapes and toss them all in two seperate corners making sure there is a clear difference in the mounds. If they are going to be territorial, one will take shelter in one, and the other will take shelter in the other pile. There would be plenty of places for them to dart in and out of if they are stressed or scared. In addition, since it's PVC, you can always pull it out and toss them in a bucket of bleach to be sterilized when QTing is done and use them again later.