Gravity feed?

geraldwhite · 12/22/2007, 02:32 PM

Ok, any help would be great, the image below is not to scale and there is more too it but I want to make it as simple as possible.

1. Tank is a wall divider, the returns and drains are on the left side.

2. There is a sump with socks on one side and the pump located on the other side

3. Far right is the refuge.

In the drawing the refuge is gravity fed with a hose going back into the the sump once the water is a certain height, there is a ball vale to adjust flow...

question, is this the best way to do this? any other ideas? should i add anymore ball-vavles etc to this?

Salamander · 12/22/2007, 03:42 PM

My suggestion would be to have more than one drain back into the sump in case one gets clogged.

Currently in my tank I have a temporary setup (old sump/fuge cracked) that feeds the sump from the fuge via a HOT overflow. The way I have it set up, even if the overflow fails nothing will overflow but the pump might run partially dry. But I used this overflow on my old 55g for years with no problems so I'm not worried.

Blown 346 · 12/22/2007, 03:53 PM

I agree, have a backup drain. Also with your design it looks as there is no bubble traps or any other sections in the sump. This can cause a problem with the skimmer. The skimmer will skim out what the fuge puts into the sump. I myslef would like to have a seperate section for the skimmer to help divery and break down bubbles from the skimmers drain, and another section for the return area. I would drain the fuge into the return section of the sump.

geraldwhite · 12/22/2007, 03:54 PM

You make a good point, and i do have two drains however i put only one in the image just to make it easier to see. So one drain just goes into the sump and the other t's off into the ssump and the refuge, does this setup seem optimal.

geraldwhite · 12/22/2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blown 346
I agree, have a backup drain. Also with your design it looks as there is no bubble traps or any other sections in the sump. This can cause a problem with the skimmer. The skimmer will skim out what the fuge puts into the sump. I myslef would like to have a seperate section for the skimmer to help divery and break down bubbles from the skimmers drain, and another section for the return area. I would drain the fuge into the return section of the sump.

Sorry I was trying to make the image as simple as possible. There are baffels and chambers for the skimmer etc. My main question was on the plumbing. I can see where this would look strange in the drawing.

Aquarist007 · 12/22/2007, 04:02 PM

You are best to t off the main drain line with two separate ball valves--this way you can adjust the flow individually for the sump and fuge:

My set up is similar to your drawing just in reverse:

its hard to notice but the fuge is gravity fed back into the sump

geraldwhite · 12/22/2007, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
You are best to t off the main drain line with two separate ball valves--this way you can adjust the flow individually for the sump and fuge:

My set up is similar to your drawing just in reverse:

its hard to notice but the fuge is gravity fed back into the sump

Ok good that what i needed to see...

jadeguppy · 12/22/2007, 04:27 PM

I suggest putting the fuge first in the sequence. You will want less flow to it than the sump. With the sump first, all the water may drain there leaving nothing going to the fuge. With the fuge first, you can adjust it to the corect setting and then let everything else go into the sump. Personally I don't use filter socks because they can decrease the number of pods since many get caught in the sock. They also need changed often and I don't want to deal with that.

geraldwhite · 12/22/2007, 04:47 PM

Its going to be pretty hard to do that, how would you plumb that? Would i have to put the sump on the left side??

Quote:

Originally posted by jadeguppy
I suggest putting the fuge first in the sequence. You will want less flow to it than the sump. With the sump first, all the water may drain there leaving nothing going to the fuge. With the fuge first, you can adjust it to the corect setting and then let everything else go into the sump. Personally I don't use filter socks because they can decrease the number of pods since many get caught in the sock. They also need changed often and I don't want to deal with that.

geraldwhite · 12/22/2007, 06:32 PM

Quick update.

Here is what I have now.

Let me know what you think.

Aquarist007 · 12/22/2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jadeguppy
I suggest putting the fuge first in the sequence. You will want less flow to it than the sump. With the sump first, all the water may drain there leaving nothing going to the fuge. With the fuge first, you can adjust it to the corect setting and then let everything else go into the sump. Personally I don't use filter socks because they can decrease the number of pods since many get caught in the sock. They also need changed often and I don't want to deal with that.

I like the fuge separate from the main flow--for the same reasons you mentioned above.

I thought the same thing about the filter socks so I removed it for 2 weeks--big mistake I am now dealing with cyano in the main tank and the fuge
I was also corrected in the "misconceptions thread" about the sock removing too many pods--it doesn't:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...1#post11414721

geraldwhite · 12/22/2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
I like the fuge separate from the main flow--for the same reasons you mentioned above.

I thought the same thing about the filter socks so I removed it for 2 weeks--big mistake I am now dealing with cyano in the main tank and the fuge
I was also corrected in the "misconceptions thread" about the sock removing too many pods--it doesn't:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...1#post11414721

In my setup how can i have the refuge first???

Aquarist007 · 12/22/2007, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geraldwhite
In my setup how can i have the refuge first???

the main drain enters the fuge first then gravity feeds to the sump then back to the tank
In this senerio--the flow is greater through the fuge so its function is more for filtration(the chaeato you put in removes the phosphates and nitrates.

In my case that I should you--my fuge is dedicated for producing a greater variety of inverts for the main tank. The flow is only 1/10 of the flow through the sump.
I have made sure that the gravity return from the fuge enters after the skimming has taken place so inverts are not skimmed out.

IMO the way you are diagraming it is a touch more complicated then you need
I don't see why you have two return pumps --one is all you need

Remember the flow through the sump needs only be between 5-10 times the total water column volume --where as in the tank it should be between 20 - 30 times the volume of the tank.

In your case I would either run it with the water entering the fuge first then the sump where it is skimmed and then back to the tank. I either gravity feed with 2 inch lines or use a pump with one inch lines.

or in my case the water is only t'ed off once with two ball valves--the greater volume going to the sump, the lesser to the sump
One return pump.
again only my opionion here.

geraldwhite · 12/22/2007, 08:54 PM

to answer your question the reason for two pumps is the system is setup for redunducy, I have aa larger pump (1800gph) and a smaller (800gph) running on this system incase one pump fails.

What are youir thoughts on that?

Aquarist007 · 12/22/2007, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geraldwhite
to answer your question the reason for two pumps is the system is setup for redunducy, I have aa larger pump (1800gph) and a smaller (800gph) running on this system incase one pump fails.

What are youir thoughts on that?

Its a good idea--but just keep the other as a spare and don't run it--the more lines and bends etc you have the less gph your reallly are getting.
I have my old coral life 1200gph case that 3600 mag stops.

Right now there are alot of battery backups for 80 dollars being offered up here in Canadian Tire. They will run a koralia number 4 for 8 hrs --which is more of a concern in a power outage then if your main pump is done
it is more imporant to keep tank circulation going.

geraldwhite · 12/27/2007, 01:20 PM

Ok I have been thinking about this for a while and maybe I'm just not getting it, I made another drawing again not to scale, also I didnt put the skimmer in or the baffels but labled them.

I'm trying to put the refuge first as suggested, so I switched the placment of the sump and refuge.

Pros: The refuge has adjustable flow with the ball-valve and the rest goes to the sump.
The refuge is gravity fed back to the sump after the sumps water has beed skimmed.

Cons: More 90's on the pump side to get around the fuge.

How does this look I'm a close?

geraldwhite · 12/27/2007, 09:19 PM

anyone?

NYIntensity · 12/27/2007, 09:24 PM

I'd suggest removing the socks, and use sponges on your baffles to trap debris. Socks can become nitrate factories, and trap those oh-so-precious pods that your refuge will be supplying. I didn't see anything wrong with your two pumps, so long as one of your returns can handle the overflow from both pumps pumping.

albfelix · 12/27/2007, 10:37 PM

try to put as many unions and true union ball valves instead of regular ball valves. Later on when you need to service something, it will be impossible withouth them. A little more investment that will save you headaches in the long run

geraldwhite · 12/28/2007, 10:28 AM

Thanks will do, i'll let yyou know how it comes out.

Aquarist007 · 12/28/2007, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by geraldwhite
Thanks will do, i'll let yyou know how it comes out.

so gerald--xmas stuff--so I couldn't answer you sooner.

That looks like a good setup now--esp with the separte valve for the fuge and the gravity feed return.

I'd leave the socks on until the refug is well established with cheato ect so it is helping with filtration.

do you have an overflow in the main tank?

geraldwhite · 12/28/2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capn_hylinur
so gerald--xmas stuff--so I couldn't answer you sooner.

That looks like a good setup now--esp with the separte valve for the fuge and the gravity feed return.

I'd leave the socks on until the refug is well established with cheato ect so it is helping with filtration.

do you have an overflow in the main tank?

Yes I do have an overflow in the main display... I was thinking of using flex for the returns to reduce the head on the pump.

Aquarist007 · 12/29/2007, 10:15 AM

how much head pressure is there going to be?
Remember you only need 5-10 times the total water column in gph going through the sump or it should match the gph of your skimmer.
The internal flow in the tank itself should be 20-40 times its volumne in gph which can be solved with power heads.

geraldwhite · 12/29/2007, 02:28 PM

well as you can see there is 3 90's on that pump, but i hear what your saying..

Aquarist007 · 12/29/2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geraldwhite
well as you can see there is 3 90's on that pump, but i hear what your saying..

there is a flow calculator on the home page of reef escape--figures in bends pipe diameter---ect.

12/22/2007, 02:32 PM	#1
geraldwhite Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: So Cal Posts: 156	Gravity feed? Ok, any help would be great, the image below is not to scale and there is more too it but I want to make it as simple as possible. 1. Tank is a wall divider, the returns and drains are on the left side. 2. There is a sump with socks on one side and the pump located on the other side 3. Far right is the refuge. In the drawing the refuge is gravity fed with a hose going back into the the sump once the water is a certain height, there is a ball vale to adjust flow... question, is this the best way to do this? any other ideas? should i add anymore ball-vavles etc to this?

12/22/2007, 03:42 PM	#2
Salamander Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Flagstaff, Arizona Posts: 2,103	My suggestion would be to have more than one drain back into the sump in case one gets clogged. Currently in my tank I have a temporary setup (old sump/fuge cracked) that feeds the sump from the fuge via a HOT overflow. The way I have it set up, even if the overflow fails nothing will overflow but the pump might run partially dry. But I used this overflow on my old 55g for years with no problems so I'm not worried. __________________ I feel more like myself now than I did before. Current Tank Info: 120g mixed reef, 2 x 250W DE MH, 2 x 54w T5, MSX 200 SKimmer, 2 Koralia 4's, 40g fuge/sump, QT

12/22/2007, 04:02 PM	#6
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	You are best to t off the main drain line with two separate ball valves--this way you can adjust the flow individually for the sump and fuge: My set up is similar to your drawing just in reverse: its hard to notice but the fuge is gravity fed back into the sump __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

12/27/2007, 09:19 PM	#17
geraldwhite Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: So Cal Posts: 156	anyone? __________________ Do you like to do it yourself? Current Tank Info: 300G Reef, 29G Reef

12/27/2007, 09:24 PM	#18
NYIntensity Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 330	I'd suggest removing the socks, and use sponges on your baffles to trap debris. Socks can become nitrate factories, and trap those oh-so-precious pods that your refuge will be supplying. I didn't see anything wrong with your two pumps, so long as one of your returns can handle the overflow from both pumps pumping. __________________ -Jeremy "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur"

12/22/2007, 03:53 PM	#3
Blown 346 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Rockford, Illinois Posts: 6,596	I agree, have a backup drain. Also with your design it looks as there is no bubble traps or any other sections in the sump. This can cause a problem with the skimmer. The skimmer will skim out what the fuge puts into the sump. I myslef would like to have a seperate section for the skimmer to help divery and break down bubbles from the skimmers drain, and another section for the return area. I would drain the fuge into the return section of the sump.

12/22/2007, 03:54 PM	#4
geraldwhite Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: So Cal Posts: 156	You make a good point, and i do have two drains however i put only one in the image just to make it easier to see. So one drain just goes into the sump and the other t's off into the ssump and the refuge, does this setup seem optimal.

12/22/2007, 04:27 PM	#8
jadeguppy Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: nw Florida Posts: 2,611	I suggest putting the fuge first in the sequence. You will want less flow to it than the sump. With the sump first, all the water may drain there leaving nothing going to the fuge. With the fuge first, you can adjust it to the corect setting and then let everything else go into the sump. Personally I don't use filter socks because they can decrease the number of pods since many get caught in the sock. They also need changed often and I don't want to deal with that.

12/22/2007, 06:32 PM	#10
geraldwhite Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: So Cal Posts: 156	Quick update. Here is what I have now. Let me know what you think.

12/22/2007, 08:54 PM	#14
geraldwhite Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: So Cal Posts: 156	to answer your question the reason for two pumps is the system is setup for redunducy, I have aa larger pump (1800gph) and a smaller (800gph) running on this system incase one pump fails. What are youir thoughts on that?

12/27/2007, 01:20 PM	#16
geraldwhite Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: So Cal Posts: 156	Ok I have been thinking about this for a while and maybe I'm just not getting it, I made another drawing again not to scale, also I didnt put the skimmer in or the baffels but labled them. I'm trying to put the refuge first as suggested, so I switched the placment of the sump and refuge. Pros: The refuge has adjustable flow with the ball-valve and the rest goes to the sump. The refuge is gravity fed back to the sump after the sumps water has beed skimmed. Cons: More 90's on the pump side to get around the fuge. How does this look I'm a close?

12/27/2007, 10:37 PM	#19
albfelix Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Queens/NYC Posts: 361	try to put as many unions and true union ball valves instead of regular ball valves. Later on when you need to service something, it will be impossible withouth them. A little more investment that will save you headaches in the long run

12/28/2007, 10:28 AM	#20
geraldwhite Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: So Cal Posts: 156	Thanks will do, i'll let yyou know how it comes out.

12/29/2007, 10:15 AM	#23
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	how much head pressure is there going to be? Remember you only need 5-10 times the total water column in gph going through the sump or it should match the gph of your skimmer. The internal flow in the tank itself should be 20-40 times its volumne in gph which can be solved with power heads. __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

12/29/2007, 02:28 PM	#24
geraldwhite Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: So Cal Posts: 156	well as you can see there is 3 90's on that pump, but i hear what your saying..