Clean Up Crew Advice

seanm001 · 01/18/2008, 11:42 AM

Long time FW, first time reefer here...

My 54-gallon corner bow currently has (well-cured) live rock and sand in it and is fully cycled. There isn't much life in the tank right now, so I'm looking to start that off with a clean-up crew.

It seems that every website and retailer has clean-up crew packages, but they vary widely from place to place. Some include cucumbers, but aren't they difficult to care for and potentially toxic?

So, before I head off to the LFS this weekend, I thought I'd ask for some input here as to what the best species are and the recommended populations of each would be...

Thanks,
Sean

LobsterOfJustice · 01/18/2008, 12:23 PM

Double post

LobsterOfJustice · 01/18/2008, 12:24 PM

Tiger tail cucumbers are great and non-toxic, but your tank might be on the small side for one. I would do:

15 Astrea
10 Cerith
5 Nassarius
7 Scarlet Reef hermit crabs

discocarp · 01/18/2008, 12:33 PM

You'll get as many opinions on this as there are reefers.

Black turd cukes are fine. Its the filter feeders you have to worry about!

My advice: 10 astrea, 20 cerith, 5 nassarius, a cuke, a serpent star, stomatella snails (these should breed in tank to pick up the slack as time goes on), NO CRABS (although if you're dead set on them, the scarlet reefs lobster suggested would be best).

el Deutche · 01/18/2008, 02:13 PM

Out of curiousity, why are you against hermits

chujai · 01/18/2008, 02:35 PM

from what i hear from others, hermit crabs in general are mean creatures. hahah steal real estate from snails and each other i guess...

since they kill other things with shells and each other sorta wastes the money i guess

reef3r · 01/18/2008, 02:40 PM

I have about 5 scarlet hermits and 5 white tips. None of them have ever touched a snail.

reef3r · 01/18/2008, 02:41 PM

Or each other

thor32766 · 01/18/2008, 02:44 PM

I have had blue legs with great great success.

ryan_paskadi · 01/18/2008, 02:49 PM

from what I have read hermits are good in small numbers 4-8. Scarlet or blueleg is fine. If you have a lot of hermits they can be very bad for a system eating coral, snails, basically whatever they can get a hold of.

el Deutche · 01/18/2008, 02:55 PM

Currently, I have some Scarlet, blue leg and zebras, but will only use the scarlets when I set up my 180. I've seen the zebras kill other hermits and snails for their shells, but never seen the scarlets.
If I had more empty shells in the tank, maybe this could have been avoided.
I don't think they are a waste of money, they seem to do their job and are interesting to watch.
Just my thoughts

LobsterOfJustice · 01/18/2008, 05:42 PM

I have never had any problems with my scarlets, but I do have a pile of shells for them behind my rocks. Other good CUC members which might come in on your rock are asterina stars, stomatella and collonista snails, limpets, chitons, and bristleworms. If you don't have these you can probably get some from local reefers. All these are especially good because they will breed in your tank.

I would also like to add an urchin to the list in my above post.

MrSquid · 01/18/2008, 06:00 PM

I was going to ask the same question for my 125.

150# of cured live rock has been in the tank since 1/10 and it had a 3 day cycle. I've got diatom growth started, no fish or corals, the expected detritus on the rock and just a little bit of hair algae.

The glass and sandbed (aragonite - not live sand) are clean, but the rock is definitely in need of a CUC. The tank will be a SPS/LPS tank.

I was thinking 12-15 scarlet hermits. Anything else at this point that would keep to the rocks (and maybe glass once there's something there)? Don't want to add anything to the sand bed since it'd just starve until I get fish in there.

Davidb6 · 01/18/2008, 06:06 PM

Go with a wide verity of snails, my blue legs destroyed my snails in about 3 months...no more hermits for me.

discocarp · 01/19/2008, 08:51 AM

Hermits kill snails. They'll also prey on other small fauna (beneficial bugs) they can catch. I hate them. More trouble than they're worth imo.

zotzer · 01/19/2008, 09:59 AM

I'd trade out the astreas recommended above for trochus snails. They can right themselves when they fall over, while astreas can't.

I also choose to run my system crab-less.

Here's a great article that covers the whole range of CUC, and I've used it as my CUC bible: http://www.reefland.com/rho/0305/medprod3.php

Tracy

BigRedSpecial · 01/19/2008, 10:24 AM

I have blue spotted red lag hermits and zebras, in with astrea, trochus, stomatella and collonista snails; I've never had a crab even look at a snail.

DrBegalke · 01/19/2008, 10:48 AM

I like cerith, stomatella, collonista snails. (The later two you usually can't buy, are often hitchhikers, and reproduce quickly). Cerith's are good because they like the bury in the sand and seems to eat diatoms.

For your system, I would do something like this:

Stomatella: add about 10, let the population self-adjust
Collonista: ditto
Cerith/Astrea/Trochus: about 15 or so (better to start on the low end)
Nassarius: great detritus cleaners, add maybe 2 or 3.

Hermits: anywhere from 10 to 20
The will use the shells of cerith snails (cerith's do reproduce in systems, but usually slowly and you'll have to replace some)... They usually don't bother my other snails.

Emerald crab: 1 or 2

A lot of people use turbos, but I find them to be too large/distracting/disruptive of frags.

LockeOak · 01/19/2008, 11:40 AM

Never had a problem with scarlets. Don't forget peppermint shrimp, they do a pretty good job of finding excess food but they can steal from LPS.

discocarp · 01/19/2008, 01:22 PM

You can buy stomatella snails from inland aquatics:

www.inlandaquatics.com

Their detrivore kits absolutely rock. If you get one make sure you specify you want stomatellas.

LobsterOfJustice · 01/19/2008, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by discocarp
You can buy stomatella snails from inland aquatics:

www.inlandaquatics.com

Their detrivore kits absolutely rock. If you get one make sure you specify you want stomatellas.

At $70, I would hope so! They didnt even say what was included in the package, and I wasnt impressed with the prices listed for everything else...

REEFKEEPA · 01/19/2008, 11:50 PM

I think you got a lot of opinions that should lead you to this conclusion:
Make your own decisions when it comes to spending money on your tank....
If you clean detritus yourself you don't need a cucumber.
start with a few and see how it goes as far as crabs and snails are concerned....
A little effort can keep your costs way down.....

seanm001 · 01/21/2008, 02:15 PM

Ok, so here's what I went with:

10 Astrea snails
10 Cerith snails
5 Nassarius snails
5 Blue leg hermits
5 Emerald crabs
2 Feather dusters
1 Orange Linckia starfish

All of the hermits are smaller than the snails, so I'm hoping that will keep shell theft to a minimum for now. I liked the idea of putting a bunch of shells behind the LR, so I'm working on assembling a good assortment of shell types and sizes for the hermits to have available when/if they want them.

Another question, though...

Reefkeepa noted that, if I clean the tank of detritus manually, a cucumber isn't necessary. Other than organisms which might get sick and die, what other detritus would the cucumber help with? Just trying to figure out if I want to invest in a cucmber one day down the road to share in the joys of tank maintenance...

Thanks,
Sean

01/18/2008, 11:42 AM	#1
seanm001 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Maryland Posts: 300	Clean Up Crew Advice Long time FW, first time reefer here... My 54-gallon corner bow currently has (well-cured) live rock and sand in it and is fully cycled. There isn't much life in the tank right now, so I'm looking to start that off with a clean-up crew. It seems that every website and retailer has clean-up crew packages, but they vary widely from place to place. Some include cucumbers, but aren't they difficult to care for and potentially toxic? So, before I head off to the LFS this weekend, I thought I'd ask for some input here as to what the best species are and the recommended populations of each would be... Thanks, Sean

01/18/2008, 12:23 PM	#2
LobsterOfJustice Recovering Detritophobe Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 7,443	Double post __________________ If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles

01/18/2008, 12:24 PM	#3
LobsterOfJustice Recovering Detritophobe Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 7,443	Tiger tail cucumbers are great and non-toxic, but your tank might be on the small side for one. I would do: 15 Astrea 10 Cerith 5 Nassarius 7 Scarlet Reef hermit crabs __________________ If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles

01/18/2008, 02:13 PM	#5
el Deutche Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 134	Out of curiousity, why are you against hermits __________________ Those who would sacrifice Liberty for Security deserve neither. - Benjamin Franklin Current Tank Info: 180gal

01/18/2008, 02:44 PM	#9
thor32766 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chuluota, FL Posts: 6,072	I have had blue legs with great great success. __________________ "Live your life so no one has to lie about who you were at your funeral" click on my red house to see my tang compound! Current Tank Info: 29 gallon in Wall!

01/18/2008, 12:33 PM	#4
discocarp Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Winter Park, FL Posts: 2,707	You'll get as many opinions on this as there are reefers. Black turd cukes are fine. Its the filter feeders you have to worry about! My advice: 10 astrea, 20 cerith, 5 nassarius, a cuke, a serpent star, stomatella snails (these should breed in tank to pick up the slack as time goes on), NO CRABS (although if you're dead set on them, the scarlet reefs lobster suggested would be best).

01/18/2008, 02:35 PM	#6
chujai Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Ottawa Posts: 188	from what i hear from others, hermit crabs in general are mean creatures. hahah steal real estate from snails and each other i guess... since they kill other things with shells and each other sorta wastes the money i guess

01/18/2008, 02:40 PM	#7
reef3r Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: pittsburgh Posts: 471	I have about 5 scarlet hermits and 5 white tips. None of them have ever touched a snail.

01/18/2008, 02:41 PM	#8
reef3r Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: pittsburgh Posts: 471	Or each other

01/18/2008, 02:49 PM	#10
ryan_paskadi Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: las cruces, nm Posts: 870	from what I have read hermits are good in small numbers 4-8. Scarlet or blueleg is fine. If you have a lot of hermits they can be very bad for a system eating coral, snails, basically whatever they can get a hold of.

01/18/2008, 02:55 PM	#11
el Deutche Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NW Ohio Posts: 134	Currently, I have some Scarlet, blue leg and zebras, but will only use the scarlets when I set up my 180. I've seen the zebras kill other hermits and snails for their shells, but never seen the scarlets. If I had more empty shells in the tank, maybe this could have been avoided. I don't think they are a waste of money, they seem to do their job and are interesting to watch. Just my thoughts __________________ Those who would sacrifice Liberty for Security deserve neither. - Benjamin Franklin Current Tank Info: 180gal

01/18/2008, 05:42 PM	#12
LobsterOfJustice Recovering Detritophobe Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 7,443	I have never had any problems with my scarlets, but I do have a pile of shells for them behind my rocks. Other good CUC members which might come in on your rock are asterina stars, stomatella and collonista snails, limpets, chitons, and bristleworms. If you don't have these you can probably get some from local reefers. All these are especially good because they will breed in your tank. I would also like to add an urchin to the list in my above post. __________________ If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I remember when zoanthids were called things like "green" and "orange" and not "reverse gorilla nipple." Current Tank Info: 180g reef with all the bells and whistles

01/18/2008, 06:00 PM	#13
MrSquid Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 1,437	I was going to ask the same question for my 125. 150# of cured live rock has been in the tank since 1/10 and it had a 3 day cycle. I've got diatom growth started, no fish or corals, the expected detritus on the rock and just a little bit of hair algae. The glass and sandbed (aragonite - not live sand) are clean, but the rock is definitely in need of a CUC. The tank will be a SPS/LPS tank. I was thinking 12-15 scarlet hermits. Anything else at this point that would keep to the rocks (and maybe glass once there's something there)? Don't want to add anything to the sand bed since it'd just starve until I get fish in there.

01/18/2008, 06:06 PM	#14
Davidb6 Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Savanah Ga Posts: 770	Go with a wide verity of snails, my blue legs destroyed my snails in about 3 months...no more hermits for me.

01/19/2008, 08:51 AM	#15
discocarp Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Winter Park, FL Posts: 2,707	Hermits kill snails. They'll also prey on other small fauna (beneficial bugs) they can catch. I hate them. More trouble than they're worth imo.

01/19/2008, 09:59 AM	#16
zotzer Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 346	I'd trade out the astreas recommended above for trochus snails. They can right themselves when they fall over, while astreas can't. I also choose to run my system crab-less. Here's a great article that covers the whole range of CUC, and I've used it as my CUC bible: http://www.reefland.com/rho/0305/medprod3.php Tracy

01/19/2008, 10:24 AM	#17
BigRedSpecial Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: St. John's, Newfoundland Posts: 405	I have blue spotted red lag hermits and zebras, in with astrea, trochus, stomatella and collonista snails; I've never had a crab even look at a snail. __________________ My progression: 10g/T8 NO to PC; 20h/PC to T5; 45 corner/55 sump/kessil

01/19/2008, 10:48 AM	#18
DrBegalke Go Buckeyes! Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Phoenix area, AZ Posts: 2,599	I like cerith, stomatella, collonista snails. (The later two you usually can't buy, are often hitchhikers, and reproduce quickly). Cerith's are good because they like the bury in the sand and seems to eat diatoms. For your system, I would do something like this: Stomatella: add about 10, let the population self-adjust Collonista: ditto Cerith/Astrea/Trochus: about 15 or so (better to start on the low end) Nassarius: great detritus cleaners, add maybe 2 or 3. Hermits: anywhere from 10 to 20 The will use the shells of cerith snails (cerith's do reproduce in systems, but usually slowly and you'll have to replace some)... They usually don't bother my other snails. Emerald crab: 1 or 2 A lot of people use turbos, but I find them to be too large/distracting/disruptive of frags. __________________ ~Jason Begalke Current Tank Info: Latest project: JBJ Cubey

01/19/2008, 11:40 AM	#19
LockeOak Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 839	Never had a problem with scarlets. Don't forget peppermint shrimp, they do a pretty good job of finding excess food but they can steal from LPS.

01/19/2008, 01:22 PM	#20
discocarp Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Winter Park, FL Posts: 2,707	You can buy stomatella snails from inland aquatics: www.inlandaquatics.com Their detrivore kits absolutely rock. If you get one make sure you specify you want stomatellas.

01/19/2008, 11:50 PM	#22
REEFKEEPA Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: New Orleans Posts: 494	I think you got a lot of opinions that should lead you to this conclusion: Make your own decisions when it comes to spending money on your tank.... If you clean detritus yourself you don't need a cucumber. start with a few and see how it goes as far as crabs and snails are concerned.... A little effort can keep your costs way down..... __________________ WE ROCK!!!!!! Current Tank Info: 70 Gallon tub drilled, 120Lbs LR, 140Lbs LS, CPR CY194 Sump w/LR trickle, Mag Drive 9.5 return, 2 x Tunze6025 for flow, 2 x Ice Cap 660 running 6 x 95 W lamps

01/21/2008, 02:15 PM	#23
seanm001 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Maryland Posts: 300	Final tally Ok, so here's what I went with: 10 Astrea snails 10 Cerith snails 5 Nassarius snails 5 Blue leg hermits 5 Emerald crabs 2 Feather dusters 1 Orange Linckia starfish All of the hermits are smaller than the snails, so I'm hoping that will keep shell theft to a minimum for now. I liked the idea of putting a bunch of shells behind the LR, so I'm working on assembling a good assortment of shell types and sizes for the hermits to have available when/if they want them. Another question, though... Reefkeepa noted that, if I clean the tank of detritus manually, a cucumber isn't necessary. Other than organisms which might get sick and die, what other detritus would the cucumber help with? Just trying to figure out if I want to invest in a cucmber one day down the road to share in the joys of tank maintenance... Thanks, Sean