Trendy or Birth Defect?

Roy G. Biv · 02/11/2008, 05:15 PM

I am seeing more and more misbarred clownfish lately. Some have perfect stripes on one side and on the other there will be an incomplete stripe. They range from one incomplete to all incomplete stripes. I have noticed them in several LFS lately and most of them say "They're unique". Is this caused by careless breeders that have combined the same family for breeding? Mother/Son, Brother/Sister and so forth?
It seems too easy to have a litter (??) and keep them all in one tank to have them pair off

This reminds me of the siamese cats with different colored eyes.

billsreef · 02/11/2008, 08:30 PM

Barring seems to be combination of nutrition, age, and genetics. More and more there are genetic misbars like snowflakes that get names and hyped to be the next "cool" designer fish. IMO, it's not a good thing, but some people like designer fish and it does let fish farmers make money from what I would consider a cull.

Roy G. Biv · 02/11/2008, 08:40 PM

Do snowflakes exist in the wild or are they a human fabrication?

billsreef · 02/11/2008, 08:48 PM

I've never seen any wild caught with that look.

Atticus · 02/12/2008, 02:14 AM

Picassos (misbarred A. Perculas) are wild caught. I found that I could manipulate barring with water quality. "The cleaner your water the cleaner the barring..." As mentioned; genetics, nutrition of fry and parents, and many other factors are also involved.

d9sccr · 02/12/2008, 07:17 PM

can somebody explain what misbar means again?

billsreef · 02/12/2008, 07:35 PM

Misbar's are when the bars on the clownfish do not fully develop or develop in an aberrant pattern from the normal appearance of a typical wild type specimen.

d9sccr · 02/12/2008, 07:40 PM

can misbars produce normal clowns?

shred5 · 02/12/2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by d9sccr
can misbars produce normal clowns?

Yes unless it is genetic and most of the time it is not...... I found missbaring mainly happens because of nutrition and water quality as the fish developes. No m,atter how perfect the pair is there allways seems to be a few ofspring that are misbared.

Dave

Roy G. Biv · 02/12/2008, 08:05 PM

So the LFS that I saw these in yesterday. He must have had 100 occelaris in one tank. ALL of them had a defect. Does that mean the breeder has really crappy water?

Now people mention "water quality". Does this only mean high nitrates, or can other things be off. Which is the most critical spec that would contribute to this.
At what point does this affect the barring. The point of conception? At an early stage of development?

Thanks.

d9sccr · 02/12/2008, 08:07 PM

what time frame are you talking about when they develop?

Atticus · 02/13/2008, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by d9sccr
can misbars produce normal clowns?

Yes, I had a pair of black and white A. Ocellaris that both parents had a broken bar (aka mis barred). Those two clowns produced clutches with 100% perfect wide barred fry batches. When the water quality was not pristine or my feeding/cleaning schedule was changed you could see it as an increase in misbarring.

As for the LFS with all misbarred clowns. No, the breeder did not necissarily have "crappy water". Most likely the clowns are from ORA or another larger scale breeder. Large scale breeders sell misbars for a discount. This appeals to LFS owners as they pay less for a clown they can sell as unique....

Atticus · 02/13/2008, 01:23 AM

The best time to affect barring is during the barring phase of development (aka right after meta). NitrAtes are not typically "toxic" to fish and should not have much of an effect on the fry.

Roy G. Biv · 02/13/2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus
The best time to affect barring is during the barring phase of development (aka right after meta). NitrAtes are not typically "toxic" to fish and should not have much of an effect on the fry.

Still a little confused about the water quality issue.. If it is not nitrates, then is it ammonia or nitrites?

tpdpercula · 02/14/2008, 08:49 AM

Pmolan, you have to look at it this way, Salinity-Temp-Food-etc. I use to breed lizards and temps during the incubation would effect the outcome of the babies. Lets say that a fry tank is set-up at 77 degrees F the breeder has a change in water temp durning the Metamorphisis Phase and it produces Mis-bars. Lets say that the next batch there is no change in water temp durning the Meta Phase and the batch is 100% normal bars.

This example could be used for salinity of the fry tank and also feeding schedules. Though I have never produced Mis-bars I believe that is what they are trying to explain when they say there are other factors then "Nitrates".

-Ian

Roy G. Biv · 02/14/2008, 01:21 PM

Ahhhh.. So its any parameter out of the norm.

02/11/2008, 05:15 PM	#1
Roy G. Biv Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 3,646	Trendy or Birth Defect? I am seeing more and more misbarred clownfish lately. Some have perfect stripes on one side and on the other there will be an incomplete stripe. They range from one incomplete to all incomplete stripes. I have noticed them in several LFS lately and most of them say "They're unique". Is this caused by careless breeders that have combined the same family for breeding? Mother/Son, Brother/Sister and so forth? It seems too easy to have a litter (??) and keep them all in one tank to have them pair off This reminds me of the siamese cats with different colored eyes.

02/11/2008, 08:30 PM	#2
billsreef Moderator 10 & Over Club Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami Posts: 36,538	Barring seems to be combination of nutrition, age, and genetics. More and more there are genetic misbars like snowflakes that get names and hyped to be the next "cool" designer fish. IMO, it's not a good thing, but some people like designer fish and it does let fish farmers make money from what I would consider a cull. __________________ Bill "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.

02/11/2008, 08:48 PM	#4
billsreef Moderator 10 & Over Club Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami Posts: 36,538	I've never seen any wild caught with that look. __________________ Bill "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.

02/12/2008, 02:14 AM	#5
Atticus Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Independence, Iowa Posts: 5,841	Picassos (misbarred A. Perculas) are wild caught. I found that I could manipulate barring with water quality. "The cleaner your water the cleaner the barring..." As mentioned; genetics, nutrition of fry and parents, and many other factors are also involved. __________________ "Good enough is the enemy of excellence." Current Tank Info: As many as the wife will allow....

02/12/2008, 07:17 PM	#6
d9sccr Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Miami Posts: 1,115 Blog Entries: 1	can somebody explain what misbar means again? __________________ Andrew Current Tank Info: 30g w/ 2 picassos

02/11/2008, 08:40 PM	#3
Roy G. Biv Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 3,646	Do snowflakes exist in the wild or are they a human fabrication?

02/12/2008, 07:35 PM	#7
billsreef Moderator 10 & Over Club Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami Posts: 36,538	Misbar's are when the bars on the clownfish do not fully develop or develop in an aberrant pattern from the normal appearance of a typical wild type specimen. __________________ Bill "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.

02/12/2008, 07:40 PM	#8
d9sccr Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Miami Posts: 1,115 Blog Entries: 1	can misbars produce normal clowns? __________________ Andrew Current Tank Info: 30g w/ 2 picassos

02/12/2008, 08:05 PM	#10
Roy G. Biv Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 3,646	So the LFS that I saw these in yesterday. He must have had 100 occelaris in one tank. ALL of them had a defect. Does that mean the breeder has really crappy water? Now people mention "water quality". Does this only mean high nitrates, or can other things be off. Which is the most critical spec that would contribute to this. At what point does this affect the barring. The point of conception? At an early stage of development? Thanks.

02/12/2008, 08:07 PM	#11
d9sccr Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Miami Posts: 1,115 Blog Entries: 1	what time frame are you talking about when they develop? __________________ Andrew Current Tank Info: 30g w/ 2 picassos

02/13/2008, 01:23 AM	#13
Atticus Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Independence, Iowa Posts: 5,841	The best time to affect barring is during the barring phase of development (aka right after meta). NitrAtes are not typically "toxic" to fish and should not have much of an effect on the fry. __________________ "Good enough is the enemy of excellence." Current Tank Info: As many as the wife will allow....

02/14/2008, 08:49 AM	#15
tpdpercula Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Death Star Posts: 1,205	Pmolan, you have to look at it this way, Salinity-Temp-Food-etc. I use to breed lizards and temps during the incubation would effect the outcome of the babies. Lets say that a fry tank is set-up at 77 degrees F the breeder has a change in water temp durning the Metamorphisis Phase and it produces Mis-bars. Lets say that the next batch there is no change in water temp durning the Meta Phase and the batch is 100% normal bars. This example could be used for salinity of the fry tank and also feeding schedules. Though I have never produced Mis-bars I believe that is what they are trying to explain when they say there are other factors then "Nitrates". -Ian __________________ If I would have spent the money that was used on corals, fish, etc. My mortgage would be paid for already!!!! Current Tank Info: 210g Mixed Reef tank, (2) 60g frag tanks (containing a Sohal in one & Naso in the other along with breeding pairs of True Percs, 40g frag tank w/Pair of Picassos, 24 Nano w/ breeding pair of True Percs and 24 Nano Mixed Reef w/pair of Ocellaris

02/14/2008, 01:21 PM	#16
Roy G. Biv Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 3,646	Ahhhh.. So its any parameter out of the norm.