Herbie drains

[Donw]

Lean me about "herbie" drains! My understanding is these are just drains without stand pipes and have a gate valve on the bottom. I also understand that you add a second drain with a stand pipe as a backup.
Now do the back-up drains get used ONLY in case something gets stuck and the main drain fails??? Is it possible to use these "herbie" drains with a backup such as a float switch or optical to shut down the return instead of a backup drain or do they send water down the backup drain on a regular basis???

Thank you
Don

[ThaNgBOm321]

i dont have first hand experience but thats the basics of it.. the main drain the the one w/o standpipe.. the one w/standpipe is ICOE the main is blocked or malfnction.. the way it works is that only water will flow down the main drain.. no air= no gugles.. ( it's the syphon action that pulls in air that make the noise) so with a high water height.. no chance of puling air... you use the valve to control the drain rate as to control water height on the drain...

hope other will give better details and experience...

YzGyz

[Origami2547]

Don, I' really guessing at this, but this is what I think based on your description. The gate valve at the bottom of the main drain is used to regulate the flow down that drain until it is just below the siphoning threshold for the incoming water rate (which is set by your return pump). This results in the main drain siphoning - thus no air is introduced into this drain. No air - no gurgling. The water level in the overflow, however, continues to rise because the incoming water rate exceeds the exit rate due to siphoning into the main drain - let's call this remaining rate the "residual rate". When the water level rises to reach the height of the second standpipe, because it's capacity is so much larger than the residual rate, water just trickles down this second drain, without gurgling.

The second standpipe, thus, is in use at all times but is normally being used way below capacity. The unused capacity, however, is always available in case of emergency.

I've seen this same principle applied to overflow boxes with two bulkhead drains.

[ThaNgBOm321]

hum.. from i have read/understand... the 2nd pipe is rarely used... only getting a gurgle occasionally.. ... i could be wrong...

[FlamesFan]

I use the herbie overflow. Its completely silent and the 2nd drain never gets used unless for some reason the main one malfunctions. There is no gurgle or "water fall noise". I do however have a bug im working out on the UNDERSIDE of my plumbing, not related to the overflow.

[cpl40475]

Don if I am not mistaken Beananimal has a thread started about a failsafe overflow and i think its an updated version of the original herbie.

[cpl40475]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1310585
Thats the thread I was referring to
Tracy

[Origami2547]

cpl's link is closer to the desciption that I provided in that the secondary standpipe supports a constant low flowrate. Herbie's original design looks like the siphon is a bit more "tuned" to the return rate though it reportedly has some self-adjusting capability (which is kinda cool, really).

Here's Herbie's original post: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=344892

[Donw]

Thanks for all the replies. I would like to do what is considered unsafe and add a gate vave to my drains. The only reason behind this is so that I can let my stars live on the outside of my tank if they choose. Ive just never tried it before and dont want to experiment if its not reliable.

Thanks
Don

[BeanAnimal]

Don,

The basic idea is to set an air free siphon up. To do this with some "bandwidth" the siphon needs to be adjusted to reject a portion of the flow. That rejected portion is handled by the 2nd standpipe. The 2nd standpipe needs to be setup so that the water flows "open channel". The larger the second standpipe, the less chance there is for gurgling.

My design sets the second standpipe up in such a way that it WILL become a full siphon if something gets clogged or out of whack. The 3rd standpipe acts as the failsafe and makes the system ultra reliable.

[Donw]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Don,

The basic idea is to set an air free siphon up. To do this with some "bandwidth" the siphon needs to be adjusted to reject a portion of the flow. That rejected portion is handled by the 2nd standpipe. The 2nd standpipe needs to be setup so that the water flows "open channel". The larger the second standpipe, the less chance there is for gurgling.

My design sets the second standpipe up in such a way that it WILL become a full siphon if something gets clogged or out of whack. The 3rd standpipe acts as the failsafe and makes the system ultra reliable.

That was just the answer I was looking for. The second pipe DOES get used for the residual water. Its not going to work if thats the case since I dont really have a second pipe or overflows for that matter.

Thanks
Don

[BeanAnimal]

Yeah here is what happens.

You CAN get the setup to work with no water in the second drain. It just means adjusting the siphon to the edge of the envelope. A little more and it gurgles, a little less it rejects flow to the second drain. So you MUST have the second drain.

In reality the sweet spot is with a decent amount of flow being rejected. This allows the siphon to fluctuate over a wide range and still not produce a gurgle.

[Donw]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Yeah here is what happens.

You CAN get the setup to work with no water in the second drain. It just means adjusting the siphon to the edge of the envelope. A little more and it gurgles, a little less it rejects flow to the second drain. So you MUST have the second drain.

In reality the sweet spot is with a decent amount of flow being rejected. This allows the siphon to fluctuate over a wide range and still not produce a gurgle.

I guess I could try stuffing a sponge in one of my drains and leaving the other open. They are 2"x 5" and I'm flowing about 3000 gph. Might do the same and raise the water level in the gutter.

Don

[BeanAnimal]

Can you not just add a lip around the drains

[Donw]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Can you not just add a lip around the drains

OMG I cant believe I didnt think of that.

Thanks
Don

[BeanAnimal]

We all have our moments Don... think about the guy who invented the wheel...

Now imagine what they guy sitting next to him thought to himeslf "DOH!".

[Qwiv]

I have set-up well over 35 tanks using the Herbie's design (not really his design but that is no matter here) and have never needed Bean's third overflow. Its overkill unless you are pumping a high volume of water.

Siphon overflows are very stable since the head height of the water self adjusts the flow through the siphon. After a while your return pump will eventually slow down to where the siphon will gurgle as not enough water is being pumped. That means you need to clean your return pump. My main tank is going on 2 years with no adjustment as the return pump is a PITA to remove due to space constraints.

If you want to pay for a T1 line when all you need is a 28k modem, go for it. I'll stick to just what is needed and not waste the money on overkill and added pollution.

[BeanAnimal]

There are people that feel that seatbelts are overkill as well. Just because you drove 7.2 million miles without one does not mean that not wearing one is a good idea or that there isnt a better way.

Siphon overflows can be stable if setup properly. The major drawback is the fact that they can also become unstable very easily. This has been covered in several threads and there is no need to rehash it here. The benefits of my setup are clearly outlined in the thread that I started.

You may consider certain things overkill, but others may consider the same things necessity or safety factor.

My return pump is about 90 Watts. My system is silent and failsafe. It would NOT be failsafe with two standpipes. Furthermore, the 3rd standpipe does kick in during startup.

Some people prefer (or need) a high flow sump. That does not make the practice wasteful or wrong.

As for pollution, the fact that you have a tank means that you pollute more than the guy that does not have a tank. Lets not start casting stones at other people because we think we are better than they are, it serves no purpose here. Secondly, without knowing the entire details of a given system, you can not label it wasteful, overkill, or wrong.

Have a nice evening...

Don, let us know when you get the lips built around your drains.

[Origami2547]

Bean, thanks for jumping in. Good to have your input and insight.

Nice work and good risk management with your design.

Now I'll just hang back and tag along to see how Don does with his mod...

[BeanAnimal]

Thanks for the kind words origami. The bottom line is that I spent a small fortune on my home theater (not to mention my livestock and setup) and simply can NOT afford to have a system overflow. I would do damage to my home theater and my livestock.

As for Don's idea... Very cool!

If the drain trough is a few inches deep, then anything that finds its way over can live. Covering the new stepped up drain with eggcrate or an eggcrate fence at the top edge will keep critters from finding their way to the sump.

I am not sure how long a fish would survive stuck in such a high flow channel... I suppose a single notch could be cut into the rim to allow the smaller fish to just find their way to the sump and be rescued. It is the smaller fish that go over the falls anyway.

Snails and stars could come and go as they please, inside and outside, without landing in the channel and drying out or getting sucked into the sump.

[Qwiv]

Bean, your failure to take any criticism shows
and your analogy doesn't even relate.

The seat belt is the second overflow (safety). Your third overflow is a 5 point harness (overkill). Needed in a race car. Overkill in a mini van.

The fact that I have built many tanks running perfect with out the third overflow and even more people on RC have had the same success shows that the design is overkill for the common application and a waste of materials. Yes, having a reef tank wastes in general, but that doesn't mean you can't conserve the best you can.

[GuySmilie]

Qwiv, this critique of yours has been done in spades, several times already.
So I don't see where your thoughts on the matter are adding anything here in a constructive fashion.

If you're just chiming in to simply rattle the cage, then why not just find Herbies original thread and crow about your theory and accomplishments there?

The third overflow is a wise insurance policy, whether you see it that way or not.
Actually, I'm rather miffed that a PE/PM does not see it that way as well.

[Qwiv]

No, I am giving the original poster my opinion and sharing my experience/input using the Herbie method. That is exactly why the person posted in the first place. What did your voice add to this conversation but to directly attack me because I questioned your leader?

Sorry your miffed, but as a PE/PM you need to balance costs, quality and schedule. Sure you can install triple back-ups all over the place, but your going to go over budget. Jeez, I know having one drain on my sink works just fine, but I really should install 3. Who cares that is cost more. To go from Herbies basic design to Bean's your going to spend $30-50. Is there a right time and place to spend that $50, sure, but it isn't all the time and I have the right express that.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by Qwiv
Bean, your failure to take any criticism shows
and your analogy doesn't even relate.

I have no problem at all with criticism. I responded to your remarks in a kind manner and have simply said that I do not agree. Furthermore, your criticism has regularly come in the form of opinion based attacks. Anybody who has read the silent overflow thread can clearly see that.

As for the analogy, it most certainly does relate. Here is how: Just because YOU consider something acceptably safe, does not mean that others see it as acceptably safe. Just because YOU can provide anecdotal examples that the method appears to be safe, does not mean that it is actually safe.

The seat belt is the second overflow (safety). Your third overflow is a 5 point harness (overkill). Needed in a race car. Overkill in a mini van.

No. The second overflow is PART of the system and needed for it to function. In my case (and many others) the second overflow CAN NOT handle the full flow of the sytem and therefore IS NOT a safety.

Also, be careful what you label overkill. A 5 point harness is much safer than a lap belt. They significantly reduce internal injury, prevent ejection from side impact, allow the driver to maintain control during a crash and significantly reduce spinal injury. Just because you do not wish to strap into one to get groceries does not mean that they are wasteful, overkill or a bad idea. Very few race car drivers are killed in crashes. If you put 5 point harnesses and roll cages in passenger cars, fatalities would be sharply reduced in a similar manner.

The fact that I have built many tanks running perfect with out the third overflow and even more people on RC have had the same success shows that the design is overkill for the common application and a waste of materials.

And just as many people have used HOB overflow boxes and reported that they run "perfectly". Doesn't that make your implemtation of the herbie [/i]design[/i] a waste of materials? Afteral an HOB is plug and play. No need to drill. No need to buy valves or standpipes. No glue to hurt the environment, etc.

In reality there are MANY people here at RC (and other forums) that have had floods due to siphon based overflows becoming unbalanced. Back to the seatbelt analogy... How many people here at RC do not wear them, have never warn them and are still here to talk about it? Does that mean that not wearing a seatbelt is a good idea? Does that mean that putting seatbelts in a car is a waste of materials?

How many people here at RC do not use a dedicated temperature controller and instead rely on the thermostats in their heaters? Does that mean that temperature controllers are a waste of materials?

Yes, having a reef tank wastes in general, but that doesn't mean you can't conserve the best you can.

Maybe we can audit your energy use and your home and point out the things that we feel are a waste?

You seem to miss the point here QWIV. You are welcome to your opinion, just don't attack me with it tell me that I am polluting and wasting materials and then claim that I have a problem with critisism. The facts don't support the argument.

[Donw]

Geez, lets not argue. I think I got a good solution to a simple issue, thus why I posted. I'm just going to cut something out of 3/4 acrylic scraps. This should raise my water level enough for stars to live in my gutter and on my outer tank walls. It will also allow fish that escape to make their way to the drain boxes where they are trapped safely.

Thanks
Don