Tang has Ich! Need help treating

[chrisqueenz]

Okay, my powder has developed a case if ich. I have just read a bunch of info here on RC about treating Ich and boy am I confused with all the different ways of treating it. For now I am just soaking it's food in garlic. Just noticed it today. Anyone try something that can be effective without stressing him out even more? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Chris

[dreaminmel]

Do you have any cleaner shrimp?

[Conesus_Kid]

Any other fish in the tank? How bad is it? (a few spots, or is he covered?)

Personally, I would not purchase any "miracle products" that claim to eradicate it.

[chrisqueenz]

No cleaner shrimp, would that help?

I have 2 clowns, 1 Diamond goby and a Mandarin...

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by MarkKlier
I wrote the following a few months back. You have already isolated. If your fish are acutely ill then treat with "kick-ick" or something similar (formalin/malachite green) this can stain the seals on your isolation tank BTW.
If you can get some cycled rubble rock or sand to help cycle your tank. Once used this way with cooper it can never again be used in a reef as pointed out above.
Watch closely for secondary bacterial infections. They kill and kill quickly.



Acute ICH part 1 (IMHO)

Get isolation tank up and running. 20-30 gal. Go bare bottom. Use a primed bubble filter (that has been in your sump. If none is available start it and use some LR that you can part with. (never to be used again in reef tank)
NOW LOOK AT YOUR FISH…if working to breath or not eating…start in isolation (see below)
Want temp at 80-82
Add coppersafe type product…do not over dose.
Have an ich therapy ready Rid-Ich since the formalin and malachite green will treat the ich that is on the fish. These are well tolerated. Copper initially suppresses the parasite.
Get Furan-2 as an antibiotic care in case a secondary infection starts.

If the fish is eating, and breathing fine (no signs of gill involvement) you can chose to try and wait it out, improve water parameters. You can try things like garlic, kick ich (kick ich is not my favorite…but that is a long discussion) and such. Certain fish will certainly do fine with that, yellow tangs, damsels and other tougher fish. Tangs, especially hippo and powder blue may do much more poorly. You are rolling the dice on these, and they are prone to recurrences.

If the fish is under stress, working hard to breath or stops eating, you need to act and quickly. Get the fish out of the tank by catching them about 2 ours after the lights are completely out. They are asleep and easier to catch. Then get them into isolation and drop the salinity to 1020 almost immediately. By the next morning you can safely drop it to 1015-1017. This decreases the work for the fish (true hyposalinity treatment is at 1010-1012) which can be very hard on the fish if you are not careful, and you do not need to do that yet.

Now go read ICH 1 and ICH 2 from reef keeping magazine great source of information

here's a link those articles:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

Originally posted by chrisqueenz
No cleaner shrimp, would that help?

I have 2 clowns, 1 Diamond goby and a Mandarin...

Cleaner shrimps aren't a solution.
IME Mandarinfish are fairly resistant to Cryptocaryon but Clowns and Gobies (generally) aren't. I would QT the infected fish ASAP.

[dreaminmel]

I only asked if he had any cleaner shrimp because the combination of those plus garlic and optimal water quality has cured every tang I've ever owned. Granted they've only ever had mild cases upon purchase of 3-20 spots of ich but I have never removed them from the tank for treatment and the ich never returned or infected any of my other fish. This also worked for me when I purchased a yellow tang many years ago that had black spot (worms).

Just because it has always worked for me doesn't mean it's the answer in every case as mine only ever had mild symptoms upon purchase. All fish are exposed to it in nature and nature has found a way to keep them alive.

[tmz]

Once it's in your tank it will be there for a long time. A single strain of cryptocaryon irritans can reproduce 34 times which takes about 11 months. Even if your fish survive ,it is very likely that ich is present unseen in places like the gills. If you introduce a new strain with a new unquarantined fish for example the 11month clock starts over. If during the 11months , you introduce a new uninfested fish of a species that is ich prone such as a tang, it is likely to trigger an outbreak,as the ich in the tank will attack it as it will not have the partial immunity your other fish may have developed and once a host is found the ich will reproduce quickly.

The only way to rid your tank of it is to leave it fishless for 72 days. Many go 6 weeks but the parasite can survive in some cases for as long as 72 days as a cyst.

The only treatments that are known to be effective against it outside the main display are: copper,hyposalinity and the tank transfer method( moving the fish every 3 days a total of 4 times).

If you choose to leave the fish in the main display and hope and cope for the 11 months some unproven techniques include:

garlic soaked food as an appetizer and a prayer that it will enhance the immune system,
a uv sterilizer( which only affects what passes through it and unless it is very large will not kill a relatively large protozoan like ich nor will it erradicate it in any case. The sterilizer may,however, reduce the densisty of other smaller pathenogens,at least short term, such as velvet(amyloodinium) and waterborn bacteria which often strike an ich weakened fish .
cleaner shrimp-they preen the fish but gut studies have not supported the notion that the consume the cilliate protozoan cryptocaryon irritans.
A diatom filter-some suggest this will filter the parasite out.
A formalin bath before placing the fish in a qt treatment tank will kill parasites on the skin and likely lessen chances of secondary infection by reducing some of the bacteria on the skin. It will not get the parasites in the fish.It is also an effective treament for flukes and broklynella in case any of those are lurking.IME fish tolerate a bath of 40 to 50 minutes at the proper dosage quite well.
Sometimes a fish will appear to recover and then within a week or so come down with a much worse infestation once the parasite multiplies. For information on the life cycle of cryptocaryon irritans you can web search and find a lot of good information about it's life cycle.

As far a nuture providing a cure, I don't think our tanks replicate nature in this case. Confinement is the problem. Fish in the sea are not exposed to the concentrations of the parasite seen in aquariums. They may also be a lack of natural predators in our systems.

Good Luck and let us know how it goes.

[MarkKlier]

Agree with everything TMZ wrote...very nice summation Tom.

What I was trying to say in the cut/paste that Gary posted...
LOOK closely at the fish for signs of stress. If they are working to breath, or not eating, you really need to act quickly to save the fish.

Gary can you edit that post. The first paragraph is in response to someone who has already isolated the fish. In addition I noticed I said "Kick-ick" instead of "Rid-ick" in the opening paragraph, second line.
MK

[dreaminmel]

So could someone offer me a guess on why I've never had to medicate or remove them? I have used my above method for 9 years now. The most recent time was when I got my Atlantic Blue Tang about a year ago. It had spots on its fins, head and a couple on it's body. I soaked it's algae sheets in garlic and added a skunk cleaner shrimp. The ich was gone within a couple of days and did not return or infect my chromis, wrasse, or goby. Then last summer I purchased a sailfin tang that did not show any ich, it only had beginnings of HLLE. The Atlantic Blue got extremely stressed out over the sailfin being added but calmed down within a couple of weeks. Neither of them EVER got ich. How is this possible if the ich is still in my tank. Would it not require attachment to the fish at some point to complete the cycle of life? Plus, there are some rocks in my tank that I purchased about 6 years ago which have been exposed to these tangs introduced with ich so it's not like my system could ever be considered ich free if the stipulation is 72 days fishless. How then have my fish not been reinfected?

Don't get me wrong. I wholeheartedly agree that there are times when medication is necessary. I am just starting to get really frustrated that it's the first thing everyone jumps to. When I first started in this hobby and my first tang had ich I put it in a separate tank and medicated. The stress was too much for the fish. In my experience it is best to keep them as comfortable as possible if they are only experiencing the early stages of infection.

Take that for whatever it's worth as I have not been in this hobby as long as some of the others here but for some reason my experience has been different. I would not consider 9 years of this method to be inaccurate though if it has worked for me for that long.

[johno4]

Mel, you probably still have the ich in your system. If the fish are not stressed and the concentration of ich in your system is low the fishes immune system fights it off pretty well and there will most likely not be any signs.

As for treating Ich dont waste your time or money on Rid-ich or any of the other crap out there. The only proven methods are copper and hyposalinity and as Tom mentioned these should be done in qt.

[jimmer]

mel im with you.i never quarintined any fish.ive had a couple spots show up before then gone.if you keep the tank stable i think that helps.feed heavy maybe offer nori.just my opinion not trying to start a war

[dreaminmel]

But the Atlantic Blue was very stressed when the sailfin was added and still displayed no signs...? It still gets stressed out every so often because the sailfin is such a pig w/ the algae sheets (HLLE symptoms completely healed cuz it's such a pig ) and the Atl Blue starts trying to get nasty to the sailfin about the algae to which the sailfin puffs a little and then ignores him. I'd say my Atl Blue has a stress level that falls under the "highly strung out fish" category and yet it never gets a single spot on it anywhere?

Thanks jimmer, I know we're not the only ones that do it this way and please guys, I'm not trying to start a war at all either. I'm simply stating that in the past 9 years I have never had to medicate for ich. I am one of those that advocates Interceptor to eradicate red bugs due to corals not needing a "case of the fleas" but this is different as my fish are not being irritated or swimming around with ich on them.

[cardiffgiant]

Mel, I've had a similar experience to you, but I chalked it up to luck. When my yellow got black spot, I used water changes and garlic soaked foods until it went away. It constantly drew the cleaner shrimp during this time, but is almost never near it ever since.

Since the cleaner didn't seem to be removing the black spot, I assumed that the tang just itched, and used the cleaner shrimp as a back scratcher

I think in my case water changes and garlic might have bought it a little time while it's immune system responded. It's also possible that stress was reduced by the cleaner, since the fish could remain stationary to relieve the discomfort, instead of scratching itself against rocks.

[cardiffgiant]

Also, by chalked it up to luck, I mean that I only had to try to get a fish to cope through a form of ich the one time, so I wasn't sure if I had a method that could work for others

[dreaminmel]

Also another tidbit... the little blue neon gobies have been shown to eat parasites off tangs but the problem with them is they they are susceptible to getting the ich themselves.

[tmz]

There is no evidence that the neon gobies actually consume cryptocaryoin irritans.
Again after 11months the strain will expire. It will not stay in your tank forever.

I have not been as lucky as some of you. I have about 40 fish in my system . I use uv,garlic and keep a low stress environment with excellent water. Three months ago I qtd a chevron tang . It was clean and healthy. Three days in the new display and it exploded with ich and died in treatment after I got it out. Two months later I tried a very healthy qtd kole tang, same problem a few other fish got a few spots and fought it off. All of my other fish are fine inculding the Tangs. I do not plan to take my tank down but to wait untill October before putting in any more fish. I realize you can't always take a fish out of a display without doing more harm than good but to suggest it as method and to further suggest that qt is not a good practice is just not correct.
To iterate, the only effective treatments for marine ich are copper,hyposalinity or the transfer method and a fallow display for 72 days.Fish can sometimes survive it but it will linger for approximately 11 months if no new strains are introduced. Quarantine for at least 4 weeks with or without prophylactic treatment is the best way to protect the fish in lyour system.That's just the way it is.

No war intended but I try to give researched and responsible advice.

I agree with Mark Klier,difficulty in breathing requires very fast action via fresh water dip or formalin dip and thenm treatment. The breathing issue indicates the ich has moved to the gills or worse velvet (amyloodinium) which is almost always fatal without qucik treatment is in play.

[dreaminmel]

I understand your view but the problem is the fish is already in the display. QT is not on the table at this point. At no point have I ever suggested someone not QT fish and in every post I contribute here I share my own personal experience that HAS worked while also suggesting it may not work for everyone. That is what this forum is for. I hope that you were not implying that my feedback was unresearched or irresponsible. Typed words can come across completely different than intended but I'm starting to feel like I should have just kept my mouth shut. This hobby would never have progressed to this point had people not dared to go against the grain and do things differently. Also, it was stated before this has only worked for me in minor cases. I have never had ich on a fish so bad that their breathing was affected.

[dreaminmel]

I do want to thank you Tom for the info on a strain's time frame for expiration. That is info I did not have before. Also, I'm curious about the findings of the neon gobies not eating ich as I've watched them do it, well, I've watched one do it... never actually did witness the others eat it.

I really hope that my suggestions weren't taken as gospel as the ONLY way to handle it. Just my accumulated experiences trying to be offered for others to know...

So to our original poster... how bad IS the ich on your powder blue and how is it doing right now?

[MarkKlier]

One more comment then I'm out BTW Gary thanks for dragging me into the age old ich debate (for what the 20th time Please the next time just post the links from reefkeeping magazine. They are excellent and I can add nothing to them..EXCEPT..
Look at the fish, if the ich is causing stress with breathing the likelihood it will die goes way up. Just like respiratory rate gives us a sense of a patients well being, the same is true for the fish.
That's all I was trying to say (a year ago).
MK

[tmz]

Dreamin mel.,
I meant no offense. Just staing a point of view and trying to get the facts out as I understand them. My response was not directed at you or any one else but more at the general theme and meant to underscore the seriousness of this parasitic infection and the need for quarantine (which I believe another poster stated was unecessary) and when at all possible prompt and vigorus treatment.Fialing the ability to isolate the affected fish which could be all of the fish in the display, one should be aware that even if symptoms are not showing, new fish can be decimated within the 11 month timeframe while one can employ the hope an cope strategies noted.
I have experienced terrible outbreaks and the horrible results. I have also had some nice sucesses with early copper treatment preceded by a formalin dip.
This parasite seems to be a ubiquitous killer in aquariums , perhaps due to confinement,and learning all I can about how to erradicate it and sharing what I have learned through experience and study is a goal I have.

I have ich in my system from a fish kept in qt for less than 3weeks with no signs.I fretted that the fish might be better off in the main tank sooner than the 4 week minimum qt period. Big mistake and knowing what I know I have no excuse for it. There are no sick fish at the moment .I have tried the unproven remedies including neon gobies. I do btw keep cleaner shrimp too.If you see the gobies or cleaner shrimp picking at spots they are likely picking at exit wounds and not the parasite itself.


Please don't keep your mouth shut discussion is a way we can all learn. Your point of view is certainly as valuable as mine. However, when I disagree on an issue I consider important as I do in this case,I will argue vigorously with no intent to diminish or offend anyone.
Good Luck to you and happy reefing.

Mark, I for one am glad Gary pulled you in.Your point on the urgency of respiratory diffricult is a major one. Thanks

[tmz]

Dreamin mel.,
I meant no offense. Just staing a point of view and trying to get the facts out as I understand them. My response was not directed at you or any one else but more at the general theme and meant to underscore the seriousness of this parasitic infection and the need for quarantine (which I believe another poster stated was unecessary) and when at all possible prompt and vigorus treatment.Fialing the ability to isolate the affected fish which could be all of the fish in the display, one should be aware that even if symptoms are not showing, new fish can be decimated within the 11 month timeframe while one can employ the hope an cope strategies noted.
I have experienced terrible outbreaks and the horrible results. I have also had some nice sucesses with early copper treatment preceded by a formalin dip.
This parasite seems to be a ubiquitous killer in aquariums , perhaps due to confinement,and learning all I can about how to erradicate it and sharing what I have learned through experience and study is a goal I have.

I have ich in my system from a fish kept in qt for less than 3weeks with no signs.I fretted that the fish might be better off in the main tank sooner than the 4 week minimum qt period. Big mistake and knowing what I know I have no excuse for it. There are no sick fish at the moment .I have tried the unproven remedies including neon gobies. I do btw keep cleaner shrimp too.If you see the gobies or cleaner shrimp picking at spots they are likely picking at exit wounds and not the parasite itself.


Please don't keep your mouth shut discussion is a way we can all learn. Your point of view is certainly as valuable as mine. However, when I disagree on an issue I consider important as I do in this case,I will argue vigorously with no intent to diminish or offend anyone.
Good Luck to you and happy reefing.

Mark, I for one am glad Gary pulled you in.Your point on the urgency of respiratory diffricult is a major one. Thanks

[tmz]

Sorry for the double post. Dreamin mel as for a guess as to why your fish don't get ich ,cosnsider this. If they had spots(which show up when th parasite exits) when you purchased them the ich may have already left the fish and been left in the bag or the sellers tank before it had a chance to settle on your substrate and reproduce or the strain expired before a new ich prone fish was introduced or the sailfin had an immunity. In fact those who use the tank transfer method say if you can time the transfer shortly after the exit it is more effective with less transfers needed.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Mark K- sorry to drag your quote in here. The reason I did so was because I believed in it's relevence here. (It's too late for me to edit it out).

Speaking from personal experience- I'm not the guy to go to for info on treating sick fishes. Although I had the book on fish diseases that Calfo mentioned when he was in town (Dieter Untergasser's) and I probably have more experience than the average fish keeper I currently don't play doctor with treating sick fishes- it's not my bag.
I've worked with some very sick fishes in the past. Treatments can be as bad as the affliction IME.

Crypto can fool anyone.
I've seen fishes living without any of it's symptoms suddenly break out simply when only an aquarium's decor is re-arranged.
For a while I believed that it's always present in all of our systems (ie: if you stress your fishes out enough they can break out with ick.) I don't believe this anymore.
Garlic and cleaner shrimps might help in certain mild cases, but they won't save a fish that has such a bad case of ick that it can't breathe.

chrisqueenz- how's your fish doing... what happened?

[chrisqueenz]

Well just with soaking garlic in the food, It's seems to have gotten much better. Don't really think it's my thing here either to try and play Doc. with sick fish. He sems to be swimming around rather nicely but dont think he will be going into the main display.

[dreaminmel]

Be sure to keep an eye out as there is a stage in the ich life cycle where it drops off and then it can come back onto the fish w/ a vengeance. I can't say this for sure but have read this is even more likely to happen if the fish sleeps in the same spot every night.

Have the clowns or goby shown any ich at all?