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04/25/2008, 09:12 PM | #1 |
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Yet another ro/di question
Even though I have been keeping FOWLR tanks for three years, all my methods were based on the advice of my LFS. I found RC a few months ago and have been attempting to correct the errors of my ways. Despite reading several other RO/DI threads here on RC and corresponding with various manufacturers, I am still having a little trouble determining the real differences in the various RO/DI units available. What is marketing, what is fact, and what local water quality issues will affect the RO/DI unit? I am focusing on RC sponsors, and I am trying to consider the overall cost of ownership. I have looked over my towns annual water report found here http://www.vestalny.com/page.aspx?pID=50&dID=24. I believe that I would like to employ a storage tank for use with my icemaker and drinking water through my refrigerator.
I am currently considering the following units, listed in no particular order. Melevs reef 100gpd unit Spectrapure Maxicap 90gpd - MC-RODI-90 The Filter Guys ocean reef +1 Five Stage 75GPD Buckeye Field Supply BFS-209 75gpd Reef Residential system. From what I have read from the sponsors forums and various posts, these all appear to be fine units, backed by great companies. In your experience, is there something about any of systems that make it the clear choice, or is this ultimately just a personal preference at this point? Thanks in advance |
04/25/2008, 10:29 PM | #2 |
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All of the units you've listed are nice. Once you've got the unit, you can try different cartridges/refills to see specifically what is most cost effective. The only thing I might suggest is a two stage DI.
FYI, I'm using an Ocean Reef + 2 from The Filter Guys (right now just using the four stage RO unit) and running that into a SpectraPure MaxCap D2. Heh, actually I just replace one of the DI cartridges in that unit with one I purchased through TheFilterGuys) I really like The Filter Guys -- Excellent customer service, solid units (metal brackets, not plastic) and very good prices. By the way, also get a good TDS meter. The COM-100 is nice.
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04/25/2008, 10:53 PM | #3 |
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I just scrapped my old RO/DI unit...It was getting ratty. I went through the same thing. I talked to Jim from the Filter Guys. Jim talked to me for 45 min about the unit. That was all it took. I bought it & received it on tuesday. I know that if I have any questions, I'm sure Jim will be there for me.
I also ordered A COM-100 tds meter a few weeks ago from Jim.....I would call them & talk to them. I'm sure that will convince you . Oh Ya...I bought the Ocean Reef + 1 $199.00
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If todays automobile had followed the same development as the computer, A Rolls Royce would cost $100.00. It would get a million miles per gallon, but it would explode once a year killing everyone inside." Current Tanks... 90 gal Reef... My awesome Office BioCube....( 180 was on hold ..no time ) ... The 180 gal has been sold...Yay..yay..yay. Hobby Experience: 19 years Reef...22 years FW |
04/28/2008, 07:25 AM | #4 |
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Flipper62 & CD77, Thank you for the advice.
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04/28/2008, 09:02 AM | #5 |
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not sure about the others but BFS uses aluminum brackets which is nice since they don't rust. (mine is metal and rusting ) All in a RO/DI's are very similar just find the one that has the options and price you want. I would reccomend making sure it has a pressure guage (helpful in alerting on when to change out the prefilters and a verticle DI . My understanding is that in most cases a 5 stage units are overkill unless your municipality uses chloromines.
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Mark "I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more cowbell" ~ Christopher Walken Current Tank Info: AGE 240 Flatback Hex |
04/29/2008, 05:52 PM | #6 |
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Anybody else have any advice before I finally make a decision?
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04/29/2008, 06:01 PM | #7 |
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SpectraPure is a great unit and you can't go wrong with it; have you looked that the SpectraPure UHE? The UHE has much less waste and the filters last significantly longer than (most, if not all) RO/DI units, which could lead to better quality water for less money over the longer term.
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Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc. |
04/29/2008, 06:28 PM | #8 |
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The spectapure unit is a very good one. Other than a Spectapure unit only get a 75 gal a day unit. With the proper pressure you will get at least a 95% rejection rate. The 100gpd will only get you a 90% rejection rate. This translates into how much DI resin you go thru.
DI resin is expensive. The filter guys is your best bet. The owners of the filter guys keep reef tanks and understand our needs better than most. |
04/29/2008, 06:41 PM | #9 |
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I beg to differ...
SpectraPure filters have better than 98% rejection and have been building water filtration for cities and labs longer than the FilterGuys have been in business. The UHE model produces 90 and 180 G/day (at 98% rejection) and many people who own it, even after 8 months are still not in need of replacement filters (still TDS 0). In addition the UHE gets 1:2 water, much better then the 4:1 most other units put out. Meaning with the UHE you get 2 good for every 1 waste, the norm is 1 good for every 4 waste (some units are worse). The MaxCap, mentioned above also has a 90 and 180 GPD with 98% rejection. I'm not sure where you read your information but it doesn't appear to match the SpectraPure specs.
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Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc. |
04/29/2008, 06:52 PM | #10 |
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SPN, take a read of this thread:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...readid=1376956 A person here on RC, 'AZDesertRat' is a great person to ask questions; he's not associated with any of the companies and knows more about RO/DI that anyone I've ever talked to (and he'll tell you the straight up on anything).
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Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc. |
04/29/2008, 07:08 PM | #11 |
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We have a ro/di from the filter guys. They have great customer service. Jim talked to me for a long time before I ordered it and when it came in the mail I also had a few questions. He was nothing but pleasant and helpful to me both times i spoke to him on the phone. Also i ordered my unit on a friday afternoon and it was delivered to me on tuesday. Talk about fast. I have nothing but great things to say about them. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!
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04/29/2008, 07:33 PM | #12 |
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if you re read my post you will see I started out saying OTHER THAN
Spectapure. But now that you bought it up. Spectapure is very over priced! And the over price does not equate to a value for our purposes. You said it best they have been building units for LABS not reef tanks. they do not know what we need or care. . . AZ lives in Arizona where the water is at about 750 tds. There is no need for a spectapure unit with water as good as this guys water. I do not think anyone needs a spectapure unit who has a tds under 200. |
04/29/2008, 07:33 PM | #13 |
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Well, everyone's water is different, but for what it's worth, I'm getting between 97% and 98% rejection on my Filter Guys RO unit measured using a calibrated COM-100. I have not measured the water waste ratio, but I do doubt I'm getting 1:2.
Oh, and it's true, AZDesertRat is the man!
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04/29/2008, 07:44 PM | #14 |
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Good point cd77. The spectapure unit they say will get 98% rejection is based on the quality of the incoming water. To get the spectapure 98% you need 77 degree water with 55psi incoming pressure.
Kenargo, The UHE model you mention is $900. !!!!! you would need to make a crap load of water to see that back. Any one can go a long time without needing re placement filters. If you have low incoming tds. That is no proof at all. Zero tds for a long time at what cost? I would rather change out my $3.00 sediment filter 4 times a year than have to replace a $35 sediment filter once a year ....would'nt you? Not to mention that .02 sediment filter is going to cut your incoming pressure to your membrane a lot more than a 1micron. unlike a lab or city most homes do not have the water pressure to compensate for that . |
04/29/2008, 07:48 PM | #15 |
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Sorry, frank2926, your statement made it sound like you where referring to SpectraPure.
I disagree with the statement about SpectraPure being very overpriced and that they do not have an understanding about our needs. Yes, their units maybe more $$ than other units but the quality and quantity of water the units make is greater than any unit I am familiar with. Some units on the market have you replacing DI cartridges every few hundred gallons, same with carbon. SpectraPure has much higher quality cartridges, capable of filtering much more and lasting longer than many, if not all units on the market. So while you may pay more for the (SpectraPure) units, longer term you may actually pay less and with the cost of water going up waste water will become an issue if it isn't already.
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Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc. |
04/29/2008, 07:59 PM | #16 |
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If you break it down gallon for gallon you are paying much more per gallon for total water with a spectapure unit. again how much DI you go thru depends on much more then even the quality of your ro system. If you have low water pressure and the water is cold not even a Spectapure unit will do well . My simple comparison of the sediment filters is the proof $3.00 a filter that you may change 4 times a year vs a $26.00 sediment filter that may last a year. Spectrapure still costs 2X as much.
Not to mention that we are not labs and our membranes do not need protection down to .02 Dow only recommends protection down to .05 micron |
04/29/2008, 07:59 PM | #17 |
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The original poster has probably checked himself into a psych unit by now. I think you'll be fine going with either of the two companies being discussed.
I really like that Frank pointed out the temperature effect -- it does indeed make a difference. I'm not one to take a temperature reading regularly when making water, I just make sure it's a little warm to the touch and I don't blast cold water through the thing. I didn't read your annual water report, but I can tell you around here (Indiana) it changes dramatically depending upon the season. In the winter I'll often see <200 TDS, in the summer I'm not surprised to see nearly 500 TDS. Enjoy your new RODI unit, whatever you choose!
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04/29/2008, 08:08 PM | #18 |
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Hey who cares about the original poster? LOL ! !
its just a good conversation about ro units. |
04/29/2008, 08:11 PM | #19 |
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[quote]its just a good conversation about ro units[\quote]
I agree, it's all good! When I upgraded my old RO/DI to a new one I read, and read and researched and asked questions. In the end I felt that the UHE was worth the cost, others may not feel the same way or be able to lay out that kind of $$ but there are many UHE owners(including some members on RC that are highly respected). I felt that the longer life of the filters (especially one more expensive ones; membrane, carbon, di, silica) and the lower waste water was worth the cost. All membranes are affected by temperature and pressure; to address this the UHE has a boost bump to raise pressure for the most efficient filtration for the unit. It is very difficult, unless we are comparing oranges to oranges to quanify the cost of 1 pre-filter agains the affect on the system. A larger micron pre-filter means that you will replace the carbon, and maybe even the membrane sooner so it may all equal out in the end. (Gosh I wish there was some study that we could point to) I would love to find a study of expected life of x, given y comparrison that takes into account water tds, filter configuration, etc but so far I haven't found one.
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Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc. |
04/29/2008, 08:41 PM | #20 |
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I understand what you are saying about saving money in the long run. But if you break down the cost of a gallon of water a year from a spectrapure unit vs say a filter guy unit
the cost for the amount of water WE make would still be cheaper with the filter guy unit. Both use a 20,000 gal carbon block so that cost is the same. The difference is the membrane sediment and Di and housing. Thats where the price difference comes in. The part of the equation where spectrapure units may start to add value is if you made 1000 gals of water a month, most of us just dont. Thats why Spectrapure IMO is overpriced . They started out with an industrial unit, and try to sell that same unit to us reefers. Let me throw this out there. If the original poster has a 75 gal tank. He would need lets say about 10 gal a week for evaporation so 40 gal a month and another 20 gals for water changes. total 60 gals a month. or 700 gals a year. lets say he has a filter guy unit. He would need to change the carbon once and sediment 4X and DI maybe 2 times. for a total cost of $46.00 an upfront cost of $200 for the unit itself. For a grand total of $246 a year. The startup cost for the Spectrapure unit is $350. Thats a hundred more for the first year. So for the money I can go 2 years with a filter guy unit and still come in cheaper than a Spectapure. and I am sure that even the spectapure would need some filter changes at this point as well. |
04/29/2008, 08:47 PM | #21 |
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...not to take sides, but with respect to cost, the water:waste ratio isn't a big issue either.
The OP is probably pouring unfiltered well water into his tank as we rant
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04/29/2008, 08:50 PM | #22 |
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I am not even using that one. Because the low waste ratio unit is $900. If you compare the maxcap to the filter guy ocean wave the waste ratio is the same.
what can I say I have a RoDi complex LOL |
04/29/2008, 08:58 PM | #23 |
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Well, while we're on the topic, can anyone suggest a good maintenance routine for replacing RO filters and membranes on my Ocean Reef? I've been told to ditch an RO membrane when it reaches a certain rejection point, but what about the filters? Is it just a matter of frequency, or looking at the color of one of the cartridges?
As for DI, I typically ditch the second stage when I get anything >=1ppm, but still haven't figured out a good formula for when to replace the first stage -- Spectrapure (I'm using an SB-10 and MC-10) stated I should be able to go through 3 second stage DI cartridges before replacing the first stage one, but that doesn't seem to be the case -- I just burned through my second 2nd stage much faster than the first one. Any help is appreciated I don't mind doing the reading/research myself if anyone has helpful links.
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04/29/2008, 08:59 PM | #24 |
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You are totally correct; the units may not being equal at 1 year, maybe not even 2 or 3 but after 4-5 they might. The key, as you correctly point out is 'how much water you make', if you make a little bit you might not change a SpectrPure filter for many many years, that is where the (real) savings comes from; filters + waste water.
I make a bunch so I feel (for my use) it will pay off, other heavy users like AZDesertRat and Randy Holmes Farley also make a lot. A smaller tank does would mean a longer time to break even. AZDesertRat, who is 'the man' when it comes to water, while being less than committal only said [quote] have not crunched all the numbers but initially I would have to say it would be close. Figure the carbon block will last 3 or 4 times longer, probably 18 months to two years, the 0.2 micron with 10x the surface area should last much longer unless you have high sediment loading and you will save a bundle on water and sewer at like $3 each per thousand gallons or more since you are using much less for flushing or waste. I know our water and sewer rates keep going up a couple times a year, we just had a big increase in both water and sewer rates just last month. It really depends on how much water you make I suppose.[\quote]
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Click on my name to visit my homepage and access a collection of AquaController and Apex software, tips, trick and other Q&A including a link to the 'unofficial Apex new users guide' with loads of helpful information and don't forget to put a pin in my location map. Current Tank Info: 225G, BK 300 Deluxe, Deltec PF601, Precision Marine Kalkreactor, 2-LMIII+6 pumps, SpectraPure UHE, Apex, LunarSim, Tunze 6305s. Mixed reef, clam, fish, etc. |
04/29/2008, 09:02 PM | #25 |
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+1 on the Filter Guys
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