old tank syndrome

[reeferz2]

ok..here's the deal I puchased a seasoned 7 yr old tank with all the friends and family! I have been dealing with algae and my LFS. He seems to think I have old tank syndrome and so today I replaced 20pds of sand with Nature's Ocean live sand.
Has anyone dealt with "old tank" syndrome and what did you do to refresh it?

[Mr James]

I've never heard that one before. BUT.... The rock I got when I started my system up came from a jacked up system. I swear the LR is the cause of some of my hair algae. I have slowly been replacing it. The old stuff goes out to the garden as it comes out of my tank.]

What are your water parameters??

[reeferz2]

whatever my water para were I left the paper at the LFS! But he seems to think this is the issue. I even read the article on "old tank" syndrome on one of the other forums.
All I know is when the LFS and I did a phosphate test it over the roof! The new clean sand does look good though! I only changed out 1/3 of it..so we will see what happens

[boxfishpooalot]

old tank syndrom imo means filled with organics. Dead plants, fish poo, fish food, and rotting stuff in general.

It gets trapped in the pores of rockwork, and into the sandbed.

Refreshing an old tank is nearly impossible. You can replace the sand, keep the water moving like the ocean, keep critters of a million species that will clean it and eat it. This will do one thing.... shorten old tank syndrome.

The ocean is dynamic and abundant, aquariums are based on the enthusiasium and dedication of the aquarist. What animals you add to it and how much chemistry you involve will prevent and or elimanate OTS.

[CleveYank]

Old tank syndrome is part ideology and part mythology depending upon what camp/school of thought you are from.

The former members of the Deep Sandbed committee that had a glorious tank and the power went out and they lost a few things and or were not taking care of the tank properly to begin with that led to a full on meltdown and lost everything are now members of the DSB haters of America and the Barebottom reeftank Church. You'll find them worshiping anytime someone like me posts a good or possible benefit of a sandbed or someone that just likes the neato look of lots of sand on the bottom of their tank.

An Astute Gent named Shimek wrote an article about sand and rock and old tank syndrome which he asserts that tanks can run into problems with all of the things we put in them accumulate and thereby poison the system. There's some valid points that if its not coming out, water changes, refugiums, carbon, etc that the trace elements and such could build a toxic issue.

So it's build up of nutrient and or metals due to additives, suppliments to neglect.

If I had a tank that I was suspicious that it was suffering from this. The first thing I would evaluate is the bioload. How many fish are in it? How much is it being fed? Do I have adequate skimming? Is it just a case of Reverse osmosis filters need changed again and a set of weekly 30% water changes and boom were back in business? Or did the prior owner dump every tonic known to the free reefing world in this thing and the sand and rock is ready to glow?

I'd decide how you are on bioload. I'd decide how your filtration sits good or bad. If these meet the ok. And since systems are about as unique as people...well that is not always the easiest thing for someone else to armchair QB without seeing it. I digress, oh yeah, do your diligence to clean every cranny, run some carbon, check every single water perameter before and during a series of water changes to dial it back in. If things still don't change then maybe the Shimek thoughts of a system accumulation are on par. Myself I have had a 90 with same sandbed in it for going on 12 years coming May of 09. So I do not think of sandbeds as evil and I keep things dialed in. But I don't dump all kinds of additives either. A little Iodine and some stront/moly on ocassion and the rest is just water changes.

[Gary Majchrzak]

old tank syndrome has been discussed for over a decade.
"old tank syndrome" is very real and has multiple causes. It's not necessarily linked to having a deep sand bed.
Aquariums suffering "old tank syndrome" can be (and have) been fairly easily revitalized- many people in my club have done it.
The starter of this thread merely replaced some old sand with some new sand- this won't solve his problem and he'll realize this very quickly.
You need to cook your rock (remove orthophosphates that have been absorbed by the rock) over the years. This is accomplished and described here in this thread:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=485572

You (also) might need to recharge the microfauna (pods, worms, etc.) in your system if they've gone extinct.
IMO and IME it's best to do the rock cook treatment to old rock and start out on the right foot.
Thoroughly clean (or replace) the sandbed as well.

[CleveYank]

I wonder how many folks have gone down the whole rock cooking and total tank teardown method for no definative reason at all?

Rhetorically but respectfully put of course.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by CleveYank
I wonder how many folks have gone down the whole rock cooking and total tank teardown method for no definative reason at all?

I don't.
But my guess would be very few. It's not something that you'd do just for fun in your spare time. People that have cooked their rock usually know why they're doing it. The results (and I've seen them first hand) are amazing.

[Gary Majchrzak]

FWIW I believe "old tank syndrome" was mentiond in Sprung/Delbeek one or two (published back in the 90's.) It's a subject that's been addressed by every major name in the hobby that I can think of.
I've experienced "OTS" myself.
Cladophora is an algae commonly associated with OTS.

[CleveYank]

Gary, you have someone who's gotten into a tank that they are just learning about. (You did note the 3 months of experience?)They went to an LFS and the guy told him well then it must be old tank syndrome. And you have not even seen the tank. And you're going to tell him that based upon another person's assumption that he should tear down the tank and do a lengthy live rock cooking process?

That's crazy.

Why not tell him to spend $76 for this orthophosphate test kit as well?
http://www.hach.com/hc/search.produc.../NewLinkLabel=

Most folks that are just learning the hobby are battling algae (I KNOW I SURE DID FOR ABOUT 2 YEARS IN THE BEGINNING) almost from the start because of bad water in, too much food in, and the learning curve to get water parameters, the maintainance and maybe even system tweaks to get things back on par. And knowing that alot of LFS owners use any excuse to hook you up with a couple hundred pounds of livesand and some more live rock I would measure that opinion cautiously.

Gary I respectfully disagree with your assumption and feel that it's bad advice as the immediate step.

[Gary Majchrzak]

any assumptions can be easily resolved or dismissed- all this fellow has to do is find out how long his liverock has been used in a reef aquarium. Maybe the LFS knows something about the rock or maybe not. From the original post it sounds like the rock has been in service for at least 7 years. Swish a rock around in a bucket and see how much crud blows off it. Rock can be cleaned up and eliminated as a potential source of fuel for algae growth and this is what I'd recommend doing to any "pre-enjoyed" liverock.
Anybody experiencing problems with excess algae growth in an aquarium should learn about nutrient recycling and the many methods of limiting algae growth in a closed system. Algae growth can reach plague proportions even with new rock and new sand. Just because you have a bad algae problem doesn't mean you necessarily have "old tank syndrome".

reeferz2 should be using RO water, good skimming, lit refugium w/macroalgae, algae grazers/recyclers PO4 removers etc.
(There's lots of threads on RC dealing with nuisance algae issues.)

[Paul B]

My reef is almost 40 years old. Maybe Old Tank Syndrome kicks in at 41 years.
Of course I don't have a DSB which I believe does have a lifespan.

Picture taken a few years ago

[Gary Majchrzak]

Paul, you know that I love your aquarium. IMO & IME there's no reason to dismiss "old tank syndrome" as a myth. Have you ever tested your aquarium using a low range orthophosphate test kit (such as the Hach kit in CleveYank's link)?

[widmer]

Originally posted by Paul B
My reef is almost 40 years old. Maybe Old Tank Syndrome kicks in at 41 years.

LOL! 100% agreed.

[reeferz2]

well I am back after taking out 40pds of sand and replacing it I was a
tired!
This morning the tank looks clearer then it ever has! As for a total tear down that is what I did when we brought this tank home! All the livestock has been in here for at least 3 years including a huge 7inch wrasse! I did the turkey baster thing on the rock and tons of debris came off.
My skimmers which normally do not have too much foam in the cup is foaming at the mouth! I did not do a water change. I get r/o water and top off.
Since right now I do not have a r/o system I am thinking about doing smaller water changes instead of the huge 50 gl water changes which were with tap.
My neighbor on the other side of the golf course uses tap water and so does the other LFS. Both their tanks look great! But I thought I would try my small water changes.
My husband is getting frustrated because we got this tank so he could relax and enjoy it! But the algae is making him nuts! He made the comment that this tank is like a boat you always have to do something!
I personally enjoy screwing around with it and learning. Thanks to all of you out there I am going to hang in there and learn as much as I can.

[Paul B]

Have you ever tested your aquarium using a low range orthophosphate test kit (such as the Hach kit in CleveYank's link)?

No I diden't. But why would I?

The last time I tested anything my nitrates and phosphates were about zero. If the tank is still running, phosphates are not an issue.
I don't really test for anything. I can tell by the health of the inhabitants that everyhting is fine.
If a fish can live in there for 18 years the problems if any are few.
I do have a coral problem from zinc but I know what it is and I work around it. For the last few years I am in a gobi breeding phase.

[Gary Majchrzak]

just because an aquarium isn't experiencing a bloom in nuisance algae doesn't mean it's not suffering from "old tank syndrome"

reeferz2- I wouldn't recommend using tapwater especially if you're battling a nusiance algae problem

[NaClH20reeffish]

Originally posted by reeferz2
He made the comment that this tank is like a boat you always have to do something!

Tell the Hubs that a boat would be less work...

[hyperfocal]

"Old Tank Syndrome" symptoms are so non-specific that the term is basically meaningless IMO. Everything from uncontrolled algal growth to persistent nitrate problems to system crashes are attributed to "OTS".

I believe the 'fixes' are shotgun treatments where those who are lucky enough to have the treatment 'work' are excited and spread the story while those for who it fails just move on to something else.

My opinion is that many (if not most) cases of "OTS" are more a result of aquarists' husbandry techniques slipping over time than from mysterious build-ups in the tank. Those who recover from "OTS" just do a better job getting back to a proper routine and cleaning up the mess than those who don't.

YMMV

[Jflip2002]

Paul, it seems you are the exception, rather than the rule lol. Ive gone through this "old tank syndrome" in a couple instances, myself. Both were on tanks I bought used, fully stocked with rocks, sand etc. Its really an unpleasant thing to go through.

So before I started my brand new 60g cube, I took all the live rock, plus more live rock I purchased, and cooked it for 6 months. The tank was amazing for the first 2-3 months, until my poor husbandry took over. I didnt ever have to scrape the glass after my first diatom bloom. If I had the time and patience to do it again, I would have done it before my 190g build up.

I also went barebottom, though I dont necessarily believe thats the end all cure for old tank syndrome. It seems having a SSB really helps, as opposed to the deep (4") sandbed I had really helps.

Id start with replacing the sandbed. You can even rotate the rock you are cooking, so your tank isnt totally empty. Maybe some heavy water changes would be in line as well.

[Paul B]

Tell the Hubs that a boat would be less work...

I have had a boat and my reef tank both for over 40 years and I would not live without either.
As for system crashes, nitrate etc, I have not experienced either but I do get an algae bloom every year or two which clears up on it's own. There is no algae in my system now and out of the 25 or so fish in there three pairs are breeding.
I have a reverse UG filter.

[prickles]

I say people are missing the point here. I understand the question of does OTS exist is interesting, but what this reefer needs is help before she blows alot of money and effort and still has an algae problem.
First off, what kind of algae is it? Is it simply the stuff you have on the glass? If so get a mag float or similar. Those wear out over time btw. I love my tiger shark floats, they are great.
In any other thread if someone said they were using tapwater as their topoff, everyone would jump on that right away and say "You NEED an RO system." I know it's possible to live without, but it's also much more maintenance and algae without one.
Do you have a phospate reactor? Most people with nice looking tanks seem to. That will cut down on your algae problem dramatically. Don't forget to rinse the media first as the dust can be toxic.
As tanks age, their cleanup crews die/disappear. Do you have a full one? If not, then spending some money on snails etc could have a great advantage.
What kind of skimmer do you have? Is it running properly? One problem with buying used tanks is that it's possible the previous person cheaped out on some stuff. You may need a better one.
When you move a tank, stuff dies. It may not be stuff you see, but it dies. When it dies, you have nitrate/phospate spikes. These cause algae. Water changes will solve this problem eventually. Your tank won't be back to "pre move" probably for 4-6 months.
You are new to the hobby. Almost everyone who is new overfeeds. What are you feeding and is all of it being eaten? If not, then it's feeding your algae.

These are possible problems/solutions that I hope might help. I would suggest treating problems that everyone seems to agree on before even considering a problem that might not even exist. One other thing, you will have a diatom bloom now that you added new sand. It will go away in time.

Good luck!!

[Bruno3047]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/5/aafeature2/view

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by hyperfocal
"Old Tank Syndrome" symptoms are so non-specific that the term is basically meaningless IMO. Everything from uncontrolled algal growth to persistent nitrate problems to system crashes are attributed to "OTS".

I believe the 'fixes' are shotgun treatments where those who are lucky enough to have the treatment 'work' are excited and spread the story while those for who it fails just move on to something else.

My opinion is that many (if not most) cases of "OTS" are more a result of aquarists' husbandry techniques slipping over time than from mysterious build-ups in the tank. Those who recover from "OTS" just do a better job getting back to a proper routine and cleaning up the mess than those who don't.

YMMV

rock cooking is part of cleaning up the mess in this case.
Sorry to disagree:
the vast majority of aquarists that I've met improve their husbandry techniques over time. The stuff that builds up in a reef aquarium over time isn't mysterious.

We can chuck the term "old tank syndrome" if it makes it any easier to discuss this fellas problem. He should cook his 7 year old liverock for best results in a new setup.