fish stress

sbreefer · 09/01/2008, 06:16 PM

I cannot for the life of me figure out what is stressing my fish.
I have a 4 month old 120 g mixed tank, use RODI water, ALK, calcium, ph are 9.6 dkh-500ppm-8.1 Salinity is 1.023 PO4 is 0-nitrate and nitrite are 0 new salifert tests. but tangs are getting ich. What the hell? Does anyone have experince with LPS corals releasing toxins?

Randy Holmes-Farley · 09/01/2008, 06:22 PM

I don't think ich is usually related top chemical stresses (aside from ammonia perhaps), but more likely to getting a lot of ich into the system with new fish and then not properly treating and/or removing them. So I would not usually bother looking for a chemical trigger.

HighlandReefer · 09/01/2008, 06:50 PM

Do you have an UV unit hooked into your system?

sbreefer · 09/02/2008, 08:21 PM

yes I have a red sea Ozone that doses 200 mg /hr i maitain Orp at 400 it is contolled by a ACIII and probe.
What do you treat ich in a reef with? Is the kick ich product OK?

sbreefer · 09/02/2008, 08:32 PM

what is a good regimen to treat new fish if you have no means to QT?

REEFY1 · 09/02/2008, 10:28 PM

I had a powder blue when i first got him he had it , Just let him be check PH and let things stablize and it will go away on its own- All fish have it present just break out with it when they stress- If they are eating they will fight it off "if " your water is healthy.

IslandCrow · 09/02/2008, 10:36 PM

What do you mean by no means to QT? That should really be part of your basic setup. You really can't treat ich in a reef tank. The fish will need to be moved to a hospital tank for treatment. Also, there's no guarantee that the fish will recover on its own. Even if they do, I don't believe you've eradicated the parasite. I'm guessing it will still be in the tank, ready to try again.

bertoni · 09/02/2008, 11:35 PM

There's no way to treat marine ich in a display tank. The various medications either work but kill invertebrates, or they don't work, but sometimes kill invertebrates. If the fish are fed well, their immune system might help them recover. Marine ich might continue to be present in the system and cause problems when a new fish is added or some stressor shows up.

If all the fish were isolated and treated in a hospital tank, they'd be ich-free as long as new additions were treated properly. Fish don't always carry the marine ich parasite, which is a ciliate.

The sticky note at the top of the New to the Hobby forum has links for a number of articles and threads on marine ich, if you're interested in some reading.

DetectiveTofu · 09/03/2008, 08:22 AM

Quarantine the fish in a garbage can with a heater, airstone, and a sponge filter. This isn't ideal because you can't really see the fish, but it sure it better than nothing

atvdave · 09/03/2008, 08:40 AM

This is no cure for marine ich, but I add a little bit of Garlic Guard with my fish food most every day. I had a hippo tang that was covered with Ich, and after about 10 days of using garlic with the food you only seen a few spots on him. Now many months later I don't see any spots on him.
Please note. garlic WILL NOT get rid of Ich, it will only help the fish eat better and IMO help keep there stress level down.

OT is always the best way to treat Ich with some medication and have your tank go fish free for 2 months (I think?).

Anyway, my tank will always have Ich, but with the help of garlic I never even notice it anymore.

tmz · 09/03/2008, 02:31 PM

The following is from an eatlier post of mine on ich. It may be of some help.
A similar situation occured in one of my tanks several years ago. Both the Paracanthurus hepatus(Hippo Tang) and (Zebrasomma xanthurum) purple tang survived after several infestations but spotted up a little every week or two . At this point I have had them both for over 5years and they are doing well. Other fish were lost though.

Apparently, you have ich in your tank. It may expire on it's own after 34 life cycles. It will attack new fish,however. Particularly those prone to it.

The following is from another post of mine and may help you decide a course to follow.

Uh Oh another ich thread.

I think treatment of the fish and the tank is the best option for an ich (cryptocaryon irritans) infestation. The treatment protocols are difficult and many do not choose to do them or are in a circumstance where they can't do them(such as catching a fish in a fully developed reef tank). You have to make a choice wether to treat or not treat. The following should give you some information to help with this decision.

Treatment:

There are only 3 proven treatments for ich. Copper,hyposalinity or the tank transfer method. All of them require removing the fish from the display tank and treating in (a) separate tank(s).

I personaly prefer copper treatment or tank transfer since Hyposalinity for a prolonged period is ,in my opinion, quite stressfull and has been ,in my experience, ineffective.

When ich is in the tank it is very likely all of the fish are affected wether or not they show obvious symptoms since many parasites host in the nostrils, mouth and gills. Fish with lesser infestations that are not visible probably have a degree of immunity perhaps from prior exposure(82% of surviving fish that have had significant exposure develop some immunity). So it is necessary to remove them all and treat them.
It is also necessary to leave the tank fishless for a minimum of 6 weeks( some cysts have survived for 72 days) to be pretty sure that all of the parasites have hatched and perished for lack of a host fish. Otherwise, new fish including th one you may treat will likely be attacked.

There is a lot of information available on this protozoan parasite and a google search or a search of the fish and disease forum on RC will help you understand a lot about cryptocaryon irritans and it's treatment.

No Treatment:

Hope and cope strategies are often employed. Some fish can and do survive an infestation, Some don't. In either case the ich will be in the tank for about 11 months unless it is particularly virulent or does not hold true to form with studies on its life cycle. It is believed that a single strain of ich can reproduce a maximum of 34 times (over a period of about 11 months). After which it expires even when a host is available. This is attributed to cell aging in the strain.

During this period new fish are likely to be attacked and the fish in the tank already will have some level of infestation seen or unseen usually every week or two.

Manging water quality with an emphasis on steady temperature and salinity and good nutrition are important to keep the fish healthy and to give them the strength to cope.

There are a number of "reef safe treatments" on the market. In my experience none are effective teatments and some are not effective or reef safe.

Other things aquarists do in an effort to help the situation when treatment is not chosen include: uv sterilization, cleaner shrimp, neon gobies, garlic soaked food,diatom filtration. None of these will cure ich in my opinion but they won't do any harm either and may have some benefit when a decison is made not to treat.

Good Luck

__________________

bertoni · 09/03/2008, 11:49 PM

I've never heard the 34 generations claim before. I'd like to see a reference for that.

tmz · 09/04/2008, 01:06 AM

The claim is from a study by Burgess and Matthews in 1995. They were culturing cryptocaryon for a variety of observations and feeding it a new fish for each cycle and then removing the fish and treating it after one infestation. After 34 cycles the ich expired even though suitable hosts were available. They attributed this to probable cell aging. I have not been able to find the article but will try again tommorow,time permitting.

bertoni · 09/04/2008, 11:54 PM

I've heard of various microbes that can only reproduce asexually for a limited time, if that's the issue, but I hadn't heard that about Cryptocaryons.

tmz · 09/05/2008, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bertoni
I've heard of various microbes that can only reproduce asexually for a limited time, if that's the issue, but I hadn't heard that about Cryptocaryons.

I'm not really skilled with files and such on the compter so I haven't been able to find the article yet.

I do know the 34 life cycle observation comes from the noted study and cell aging was offered as the likely reason but don't know if it was absolutely conclusive. I don't know if it's a matter of asexual reproductiuon or not.

Anecdotally, the limited number of life cycles whatever the cause seems to jibe with several accounts of tanks and my own experience when newly introduced properly qt'd fish become infected several months after an infestation in the tank even though the residents show no signs but after a longer period(a year or so) new fish ,even those prone to ich are not infested.

bertoni · 09/05/2008, 12:31 AM

That's very interesting. I'll keep looking for the article, too.

boxfishpooalot · 09/05/2008, 11:17 AM

The biggest things that cause fish to become sick in my experience have been:

1) Very fast changes in water parameters, especially alk.
2) Stress, no hiding spots, bullys, not enough food.
3) Introduction of a new fish. Couples with #2 also.
4) Sand beds seem to proliferate it easily, perhaps because of surface area.
5) Improper water parameters due to faith in equipment, when infact your parameters are off.

09/01/2008, 06:16 PM	#1
sbreefer Afflicted Reefer Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Steamboat Colorado Posts: 490	fish stress I cannot for the life of me figure out what is stressing my fish. I have a 4 month old 120 g mixed tank, use RODI water, ALK, calcium, ph are 9.6 dkh-500ppm-8.1 Salinity is 1.023 PO4 is 0-nitrate and nitrite are 0 new salifert tests. but tangs are getting ich. What the hell? Does anyone have experince with LPS corals releasing toxins?

09/01/2008, 06:50 PM	#3
HighlandReefer Team RC Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Highland, Maryland Entomologist Posts: 14,591	Do you have an UV unit hooked into your system? __________________ Cliff Babcock Intestests: Digital Microscopy; Marine Pest Control; Marine Plants & Macroalgae Current Tank Info: 180 g. mixed reef system

09/02/2008, 08:21 PM	#4
sbreefer Afflicted Reefer Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Steamboat Colorado Posts: 490	yes I have a red sea Ozone that doses 200 mg /hr i maitain Orp at 400 it is contolled by a ACIII and probe. What do you treat ich in a reef with? Is the kick ich product OK? __________________ mixed bare bottom reef Current Tank Info: SPS dominated 300g

09/02/2008, 08:32 PM	#5
sbreefer Afflicted Reefer Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Steamboat Colorado Posts: 490	what is a good regimen to treat new fish if you have no means to QT? __________________ mixed bare bottom reef Current Tank Info: SPS dominated 300g

09/02/2008, 10:28 PM	#6
REEFY1 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Vinton,VA Posts: 983	I had a powder blue when i first got him he had it , Just let him be check PH and let things stablize and it will go away on its own- All fish have it present just break out with it when they stress- If they are eating they will fight it off "if " your water is healthy. __________________ Chad Current Tank Info: Doing a 180 This Time!!!

09/01/2008, 06:22 PM	#2
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I don't think ich is usually related top chemical stresses (aside from ammonia perhaps), but more likely to getting a lot of ich into the system with new fish and then not properly treating and/or removing them. So I would not usually bother looking for a chemical trigger. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

09/02/2008, 10:36 PM	#7
IslandCrow Reef Monkey Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rockledge, Fl Posts: 5,759	What do you mean by no means to QT? That should really be part of your basic setup. You really can't treat ich in a reef tank. The fish will need to be moved to a hospital tank for treatment. Also, there's no guarantee that the fish will recover on its own. Even if they do, I don't believe you've eradicated the parasite. I'm guessing it will still be in the tank, ready to try again. __________________ All opinions in the above message should be taken with 35 ppt salt. -Mike C. Current Tank Info: I have a reef screen saver on my phone, does that count?

09/02/2008, 11:35 PM	#8
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	There's no way to treat marine ich in a display tank. The various medications either work but kill invertebrates, or they don't work, but sometimes kill invertebrates. If the fish are fed well, their immune system might help them recover. Marine ich might continue to be present in the system and cause problems when a new fish is added or some stressor shows up. If all the fish were isolated and treated in a hospital tank, they'd be ich-free as long as new additions were treated properly. Fish don't always carry the marine ich parasite, which is a ciliate. The sticky note at the top of the New to the Hobby forum has links for a number of articles and threads on marine ich, if you're interested in some reading. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/03/2008, 08:22 AM	#9
DetectiveTofu Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 2,150	Quarantine the fish in a garbage can with a heater, airstone, and a sponge filter. This isn't ideal because you can't really see the fish, but it sure it better than nothing

09/03/2008, 08:40 AM	#10
atvdave Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Newburgh, IN Posts: 1,763	This is no cure for marine ich, but I add a little bit of Garlic Guard with my fish food most every day. I had a hippo tang that was covered with Ich, and after about 10 days of using garlic with the food you only seen a few spots on him. Now many months later I don't see any spots on him. Please note. garlic WILL NOT get rid of Ich, it will only help the fish eat better and IMO help keep there stress level down. OT is always the best way to treat Ich with some medication and have your tank go fish free for 2 months (I think?). Anyway, my tank will always have Ich, but with the help of garlic I never even notice it anymore.

09/03/2008, 02:31 PM	#11
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	The following is from an eatlier post of mine on ich. It may be of some help. A similar situation occured in one of my tanks several years ago. Both the Paracanthurus hepatus(Hippo Tang) and (Zebrasomma xanthurum) purple tang survived after several infestations but spotted up a little every week or two . At this point I have had them both for over 5years and they are doing well. Other fish were lost though. Apparently, you have ich in your tank. It may expire on it's own after 34 life cycles. It will attack new fish,however. Particularly those prone to it. The following is from another post of mine and may help you decide a course to follow. Uh Oh another ich thread. I think treatment of the fish and the tank is the best option for an ich (cryptocaryon irritans) infestation. The treatment protocols are difficult and many do not choose to do them or are in a circumstance where they can't do them(such as catching a fish in a fully developed reef tank). You have to make a choice wether to treat or not treat. The following should give you some information to help with this decision. Treatment: There are only 3 proven treatments for ich. Copper,hyposalinity or the tank transfer method. All of them require removing the fish from the display tank and treating in (a) separate tank(s). I personaly prefer copper treatment or tank transfer since Hyposalinity for a prolonged period is ,in my opinion, quite stressfull and has been ,in my experience, ineffective. When ich is in the tank it is very likely all of the fish are affected wether or not they show obvious symptoms since many parasites host in the nostrils, mouth and gills. Fish with lesser infestations that are not visible probably have a degree of immunity perhaps from prior exposure(82% of surviving fish that have had significant exposure develop some immunity). So it is necessary to remove them all and treat them. It is also necessary to leave the tank fishless for a minimum of 6 weeks( some cysts have survived for 72 days) to be pretty sure that all of the parasites have hatched and perished for lack of a host fish. Otherwise, new fish including th one you may treat will likely be attacked. There is a lot of information available on this protozoan parasite and a google search or a search of the fish and disease forum on RC will help you understand a lot about cryptocaryon irritans and it's treatment. No Treatment: Hope and cope strategies are often employed. Some fish can and do survive an infestation, Some don't. In either case the ich will be in the tank for about 11 months unless it is particularly virulent or does not hold true to form with studies on its life cycle. It is believed that a single strain of ich can reproduce a maximum of 34 times (over a period of about 11 months). After which it expires even when a host is available. This is attributed to cell aging in the strain. During this period new fish are likely to be attacked and the fish in the tank already will have some level of infestation seen or unseen usually every week or two. Manging water quality with an emphasis on steady temperature and salinity and good nutrition are important to keep the fish healthy and to give them the strength to cope. There are a number of "reef safe treatments" on the market. In my experience none are effective teatments and some are not effective or reef safe. Other things aquarists do in an effort to help the situation when treatment is not chosen include: uv sterilization, cleaner shrimp, neon gobies, garlic soaked food,diatom filtration. None of these will cure ich in my opinion but they won't do any harm either and may have some benefit when a decison is made not to treat. Good Luck __________________ __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

09/03/2008, 11:49 PM	#12
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I've never heard the 34 generations claim before. I'd like to see a reference for that. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/04/2008, 01:06 AM	#13
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	The claim is from a study by Burgess and Matthews in 1995. They were culturing cryptocaryon for a variety of observations and feeding it a new fish for each cycle and then removing the fish and treating it after one infestation. After 34 cycles the ich expired even though suitable hosts were available. They attributed this to probable cell aging. I have not been able to find the article but will try again tommorow,time permitting. __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

09/04/2008, 11:54 PM	#14
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I've heard of various microbes that can only reproduce asexually for a limited time, if that's the issue, but I hadn't heard that about Cryptocaryons. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/05/2008, 12:31 AM	#16
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	That's very interesting. I'll keep looking for the article, too. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/05/2008, 11:17 AM	#17
boxfishpooalot Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canada, Grande Praire, Ab Posts: 5,824	The biggest things that cause fish to become sick in my experience have been: 1) Very fast changes in water parameters, especially alk. 2) Stress, no hiding spots, bullys, not enough food. 3) Introduction of a new fish. Couples with #2 also. 4) Sand beds seem to proliferate it easily, perhaps because of surface area. 5) Improper water parameters due to faith in equipment, when infact your parameters are off. __________________ Its a good idea to have a refrence sample for alk test kits. 1.1350 grams of baking soda in 1gallon of distilled water=10dkh. Check your alkalinity test kit! Algae is Mother Natures phosphate remover Current Tank Info: 220 galon mixed reef.