PBT got ICH... In QT.... During Hypo... what now?????

[ReefEnabler]

Hello all,

Last Friday (Sept. 26), I purchased a Powder Brown Tang (actually white-cheek tang) from an LFS. He's about 3.5" long. He appeared healthy, eating and all.... but he had just come into the LFS so that doesn't say much.


So I put him in a 20L QT tank with some PVC fittings for cover, a HOB filter with some cycled filter floss, and small koralia powerhead to give him some current (he lives swimming into the powerhead). He's been eating everything I feed him: Mysis, Marine Flakes, Nori (he wont touch it on the clip, but little bits floating around are free game) and other meaty foods.


I started bringing my tang down to Hypo salinity as soon as I got him, since I know Tangs are ich magnets. I took a while getting to hypo, about 5 days. But he's been at true hypo - 1.008-1.009sg - since late last week. I am using a Calibrated Sybon Refractometer.


Then yesterday (sunday Oct 6), I saw that the PBT is covered everywhere in Ich..... literally all over.

Now I thought that once the tank had reached Hypo, that the risk of a new infection is pretty much over? How did this happen? Did I make a mistake by taking almost a week to reach Hypo? Should I have transitioned much faster???


This morning he looks about the same. He is still eating, but not with nearly the same energy... he used to "Burst" around in hi-speed, catching food so fast I could barely see unless I focused. But now he kinda mopes around the bottom of the tank and stares at a pieces of food for a few seconds before caring.....


So what would you do? Do I have a Hypo-Resistant ICH strain?

I've read that Copper can be lethal with Hypo... so thats out.

Should I do some FW dips (matching pH and Temp)?????

I've started soaking his flakes in Garlic Extract... for lack of anything else 'safe' to do... it cant hurt, right?

I've been testing water parameters (amm nitrite nitrate sg temp) twice a day making sure no spikes, and doing 5g water changes every day. I also siphon all uneaten food about 1 hr after hes done eating. Usually there almost no uneaten food since he will eventually eat everything thats floating, but still he will miss some that gets trapped under the PVC fitting etc...

The Temperature is being kept at 79F with a Ranco controller.... so there has been virtually no temperature swing except maybe from 78-79.


I'm kind of at a loss here and would appreciate some different points of view.

[an411]

I would say that the hypo was done correctly you dont want to do it to fast. I see that you started to soak the food in garlic also that did not help at all. That seems to be the only thing that I used to do?

What is the salinity at currently?

I know that fish and especially tangs will get ich when they are stressed maybe the hypo salinity is stressing the fish?

I am not sure how long you are suppose to keep the salinity low. You may have to raise it shortly after I am sure someone can answer that

[ReefEnabler]

Thanks for the response.

The SG is currenly right between 1.008 and 1.009, so its probably around 1.0085.

I've read that the fish should be kept in Hypo at least 2 weeks, but you should keep them in QT at least 4-6 week after the last sign of ich.

[HappySkittles]

fish get ich when stressed
i'm pretty sure hypo salinity stresses fish out.
should have just maybe done a regular qt?

[ReefEnabler]

I am asking myself that very same question HappySkittles..... maybe I should have done normal QT.

the reason I decided to do Hypo was because the reputation that Tang's have for being "Ich Magnets", I've read that this is one of the kinds of fish that should always get a Hypo treatment, so that you dont bring ich into your display tank... since its possible for the ich to survive a standard QT even if you dont see it.

Everything I've read says that Ich cannon survive the transition to lower salinity, because the parasites are so small they cannot adjust and they "burst" or something..... due to osmotic pressure?

But this really makes me question HOW we know that 1.008 SG is lethal to all kinds of Ich????? Maybe thats just a big assumption, and Ich is adapting to our hypo treatments?

[HappySkittles]

i usually see a freshwater dip done on tangs
(i think put in qt dip in fresh put back in qt)
just 3 minutes in fresh and right out into the qt

i dont know if i agree with any of these treatments because of the stress it causes the fish
but if it must be done i think the fresh dip would have been a tad less stressful since it would be a lot less time.

[Playa-1]

First I should mention that I'm not a fish disease expert by any means, but I will give my 2 cents

I think the Hypo is doing exactly what it is supposed to do and I would keep the SG at 1.009. A 20L tank can quickly become O2 deficient. Ammonia can also build up quickly and complicate things. Close monitoring of the ph, temp, ammonia and O2 would be wise. Keep the tank very clean. Regular water changes with well aerated water will do wonders for your situation. Another critical issue is the potential for secondary infections.

If I'm not mistaken the hypo isn't effective while the parasites are imbedded in the fish. Hypo is also not all that effective on other types of parasites. If this is ICH, What your likely seeing is the parasites releasing from the fish, it's part of their life cycle. The real problem for you at this point is that with the open wounds where the parasites leave the fish can cause the fish to bleed out or secondary infections can also set in quickly. If the fish is eating that's a very good sign.

I would be running an Antibiotic along with Hypo. The Antibiotic will probably wipe out any biofilter that you're using, so you will have to step up the water changes. The hypo should wipe out the ICH parasites and the Antibiotic will help the fish deal with the secondary infection.

If I'm not mistaken the hypo is only effective in a certain stage of the parasites life cycle. So the hypo doesn't instantly wipe out all signs of ICH. It's a process of breaking their life cycle and preventing them from reproducing. That's why the hypo needs to be maintained for X-number of days.

Here's some additional info on the subject. Good luck
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

[ReefEnabler]

Thanks Playa-1, what you said makes alot of sense.

"What your likely seeing is the parasites releasing from the fish, it's part of their life cycle."

When I think of it this way... 3 days ago the QT was not yet in full Hypo... so in that time or earlier, I guess the fish could have gotten infected. I did not know that the white spots were the parasite releasing.... I thought it was the start.

So hopefully the spots release and die!

"A 20L tank can quickly become O2 deficient. "

I should have mentioned: I have a pinpoint pH monitor on the 20L QT. I check the reading all the time and its always between 7.95 - 8.1 depending on time of day. Does that mean that O2 levels are sufficient?

I've checked it a few times with an API pH test kit and its always very close.

[ReefEnabler]

Playa, if antibiotic DOES mess with biofiltration... is it possible to keep ammonia at 0?

In the past I tried that and always fought ammonia spikes... seemed I had to change almost 100% daily to keep ammonia below 0.1. Is any detectable ammonia at all going to be alot more lethal if the fish has wounds from ich?

Would amquel be a good idea if I went that route?

[ReefEnabler]

Update:

Just got home and inspected QT tank. The tang has less white spots than he did this morning. If I had to estimate, I would say that ~1/2 of the spot are gone.

I'm not saying its a good sign or a bad sign... I know it could just be the ich going onto the next part of their life cycle. On the other hand... I read that the ich only leaves the fish in the DARK. It hasn't been dark since I saw it last. So either what I read is wrong, or the hypo is indeed messing with the ich.


Tang still looks very light-grey, compared to his robust dark dark grey that he was before, but hes swimming around a bit more and eating still, so I will remain hopeful!

Thanks all.

[Playa-1]

Your QT is on the small side so you may very well need to do two water changes per day, especially with an Antibiotic in the tank. I would suggest that you get a larger QT, Maybe a 20 gallon. It's tough to keep the ammonia and the rest of the water parameters in line when you have such a small tank to work with. If you can, pick up a O2 test kit. I'm concerned that your o2 levels could be dropping off and that could easily be the issue with the loss of color and energy level. I would skip the ammonia binder and just plan to do enough water changes to keep everything in check.

[ReefEnabler]

I thought a 20L was 20 gallons.... my tank is 30x12x12, according to some gallon calculator its 18.7 gallons....

two waterchanges a day is a good idea. I've actually done it a couple times the past few days, since the downward salinity adjustment was reaching a point of diminishing returns......

I'll try to pick up an O2 test kit.... and add a sponge filter to the tank. I actually have all the parts for that but need to put together a makeshift 3/8" to 1/4" tubing adapter first.

Thanks,
Ryan

[ReefEnabler]

sorry i meant 20 L is in 20 long.... probably thought it was in liters... oops

[Playa-1]

Originally posted by RyanBrucks
sorry i meant 20 L is in 20 long.... probably a bad way to put it.

That makes more sense to me now

[ReefEnabler]

hehe ya.... a 20 liter tank would only be a little more than 5 US gallons

the way this tang likes to burst around, I think that would be considered a straight jacket. the 20 gallon 30" long tank is pushing it. In the future I will use a 36" or longer tank.

I even have some huge 50G rubbermaid tubs incase I ever get a more mature fish but it takes up so much room...

[Playa-1]

I'm using a 20gal and It works out pretty good most of the time.

[tmz]

You are getting good advice,in my opinion. A few thoughts.

Stress does not cause ich. Ich (crytocaryon irritans)is a parasitic protozoan.

Hyposalinity does not stress fish at least not in the short term. It is actually easier for the fish short term,since it's internal salinity is about 1.008.Long term (months) could result in long term issues with internal organs particularly the kidneys. If you go below1.008 the fish will suffer since it will not be able to expel enough fluids to maintain it's internal chemistry and homeostasis. This is why fresh water dips are of limited duration.BTW if you go much higher than 1.009 the hypo will likely not be lethal to the parasite. There is a limited margin for error here and you need to use a properly calibrated refractometer or salinity monitor to ensure accurate measurements.
Marine fish have evolved to live in salinities higher than their internal salinity. They do this by drinking copious amounts of salt water and passing very concentrated urine.The entire process of maintaining internal chemistry and homeostasis in a higher salinity is known as osmoregulation. This allows them to remain hydrated since they are constantly loosing fluids via diffusion through their tissues.There is no real need to go very slowly when moving salinity downward. A period of one or two days is usually enough to avoid suppressing the denitrifying bacteria too much. This is also usually fast enough to avoid a secondary ich infestation.The fish won't really care as long as it's above 1.008.
When you go back up ,it is advisable to limit the rise to about .001 per day since the fish will have to work harder to adjust to a higher salinity and need time to do so.

The parasites which are protozoan can't osmoregulate. They are isotonic. Their internal salinity matches the environment. So,for example if the parasite has a salinity of 1.025 and the water is dropped to 1.008 it will be flooded with water via diffusion and will not be able to maintain it's internal chemistry or homeostasis.

I agree that the spots you are seeing are likely exit wounds from the parasites leaving the fish. The protozoans will now drop to the bottom and encyst and multiply 200 fold and "hatch. They will swim freely to attack the fish again and will die in the open water from osmotic shock as they are flooded with fluid. This will occur most of the time unless you have a strain that is "hypo resistant" which may mean it has origins in lower slainities. Amyloodinium(velvet) for example exists across a range of slainities and will not respond to hyposalinity.

I don't know of a reason not to use copper in hypo salinity but don't see a reason to in your case unless the fish comes down with a secondary infestation . You will know that in about 5 to 14 days. Sometimes, hyposalinity has in my experience slowed down the hatching time so I'd wait at least 14 days beore feeling relieved. The good news is your fish seems to have survived the ich that were in it when you got it.

Personally I prefer treating with cupramine ( a timed release copper medication) but hyposalinity has been proven effective in most cases if you go long enough. Four weeks after the disappearance of symptoms is a minimum in my opinion.

While secondary infection is a concern, I would not personally treat with an antibiotic unless their were some signs of infection. Stringy material, redness etc. In those cases I would remove the fish to a smaller hospital tank and administer an antibiotic. I use furan 2 which as I recall is used for about 4 or 5 days.

Good Luck

[limitdown]

I think you're ok with the current hypo treatment. I would do hypo for a total of 3-4wks.

Personally I prefer Cupramine since I've dealt with 2 instances where 6wks of hypo did nothing (ie hypo-resistant strain).

I've used Seachem's Kanaplex (kanamycin) for secondary bacterial infection on exit wounds (simulataneously with Cupramine). Others have reported success with Maracyn 2 (minocycline) while using Cupramine.

[Freed]

Again, stress does not cause ich and hypo does not cause stress. Plain and simple.
A fish darting back and forth in QT and/or in hypo is not from the QT nor from the hypo, it's from slammin your yammer up against the glass real fast and spooking the fish. Hypo must be done for 4-6 weeks after the last spot of ich is seen on the fish and the salinity not raised back up until then. Stay the course and you should be fine.

[ReefEnabler]

Wow, thats for all the information guys!

The tang looks like he is continuing to improve. Down to only a couple dozen white spots when I swear it was hundreds on sunday. And he is now venturing around the whole tank to eat food, instead of just sulking on the bottom waiting for it to come to him.

Freed FWIW, when I referred to him "darting" I didnt mean in fear of me (I stand a few feet back most of the time as not to scare him), I meant how he likes to catch his food mid-sprint.... maybe just his personality, but he seems to prefer to eat food that is moving fast (as in flakes that got shot forward by the powerhead), as opposed to slow moving food. And he seems to like to 'boost' into the food, its pretty funny. I hope I will see more of that energetic side again soon.


I added an airstone to the tank for now to help oxygenate the water more.

[ReefEnabler]

oh and as for the lack of photos in this thread....... I tried to get a good picture but the camera does scare him... he goes into the PVC fittings (his usual home is a 3" 45deg elbow ) so I didn't want to take out his cover just to get a picture and cause more stress, so I decided I dont really need to take a picture.

It looks exactly like this, but theres less spots than this now:

*not my photo, just some google image search result*

hopefully it is infact marine ich, and not a hypo resistant strain at that.

Doesn't Amyloodinium look more 'globby' rather than precice round specs ?

[Freed]

Ah, hehe. The hundreds and then a couple dozen is the life cycle of the ich. After another 4-8 weeks in hypo, it should be down to zero.

Alot of people will run up on the QT and see the fish darting back and forth and trying to hide so they assume it's because of the QT and or the hypo which is no where near the truth. Anything will startle a fish when it's first brought home and put in the main tank and or the QT.

[ReefEnabler]

This morning I was only able to see a handful of white spots and they were all on the very front of the fish by the gills and mouth.

Coloration is getting a little better. I can see yellow and blue in the end of the tail again and his main side skin is turning darker. He's kept eating and kept the weight on. Thats one thing Im pretty happy about, he was fairly skinny when I got him, and now hes a little fatter, he looks fairly robust when you see a direct profile shot.

Hes actually not startled much by me anymore. Last night when I did a water change, he wasn't even running from the siphon, he was kinda circling it to check it out. I guess the daily water changes have desensitized him a little.

[sunfish11]

Again, stress does not cause ich and hypo does not cause stress. Plain and simple.

I just want to help alleviate some of the stress--ich relationship confusion. I agree, stress doesn't cause ich... exactly. In a tank where Ich is present, but the fish have developed immunity then stress does bring on ich outbreaks. For example a power outage or change in tank conditions allow ich to gain a foothold in stressed or otherwise compromised fish. Reefers have seen this happen time and again. If there is no ich present in the first place then obviously stress cannot cause ich. Many people have ich in their tanks and their fish do great until something happens. Once conditions are improved then a healthy fish will usually beat the ich on it's own.

Lisa

[tmz]

Lisa, yes to most of that. But not all nor even most healthy fish can beat ich on their own,in my opinion.. Some can.