First SW Tank Setup

[Heavy]

OK I'm not horribly well capitalized, but I think I can pull off a small tank despite the challenges, or so I hope.

I've run a 44G penta Tang tank that's lightly populated w/ shell dwellers at the moment. I spent a night looking at Zoanthids (sp?) on the web and was hooked. I want a tank that allows me a few colonies of Zoas. On a side note, what corals co-habitate (same isolated rock) well w/ zoas? I want some of the usual cleaning crew guys, not entirely sure what'll work but I like the look of crabs. And of course I want a couple of amphiprion percula, a few months from now, if the experts (that's you people) think it would work. I don't want to add too much.

To that end I bought or had a 20G Long (fits my desk well w/ clearance for light), 2x56W PC, 1 aquaclear 50, 1 mini skimmer (not sure if its working?), 2x freshwater 20G filters w/o filters at the moment (no GPH estimate, I seem to have slight circulation throughout the tank, nothing strong except by the tank long waterfall), 1 cheap power-head, 2 heaters, ,3" average of 2/3 argonite 1/3 living sand, 22 lbs live rock that I added today after stabilizing the water as bellow:

78-79 F (thinking of going +1-2), 1.023 SG (calibrated w/ the scope thing (hydrometer?)), 0 Ammonia & NO3 before adding live rock and sand today.

1, 8 lbs pore and crater ridden chunk, then 14lbs of branches of various sizes, not very porous looking except for one good sized piece, but nothing like the chunk. I've got the powerhead hiding right by the chunk which is in a corner to hide its ugly bum for now, we should pretty 'er up soon (months).

How stable does the temp need to be? I've got a digital temp gage and it says i'm staying w/in a 1-2 degree F range, is that acceptable?

I put all that together and am now waiting for my room to start to smell?

I've got a DSLR and want to try to take pics to share, especially if this thing works. I'll try to figure out where to get them hosted and how to post them.

Please feed me options, I've read most of the basic theory the web offers, but need practical ideas to further my goals (zoas).

My LFS guy said not to use the light during the initial cycle, which is counter to what I've read. Can someone explain this, he was busy?

Should I add filters to the other two hanging filters or will that screw up the recolonization of live rock/sand?

Please correct me if I say something wrong out of ignorance, thanks again for the help and the board.

[rogergolf66]

ok well a zoa tank is a bit differnt as they like water with all sorts of good stuff in it that say SPS and LPS don't really like. I would say the light you are talking about is a bit small for this but may work. you can also keep mushrooms with zoas and soft corals.

I would not use the filters you have mentioned for this tank. use live rock and you already have LS in the tank that will be fine as long as you don't over stock the tank with fish. if you are putting this on your desk with no sump. I will go against the grain here but I would say also you can get rid of the skimmer and just do more water changes. again if you keep the fish stock low and it is a small tank 20 gal you said?

dosn't really matter if you run your lights on the cycle. I have done it both ways. I didn't see anything different just a higher electric bill that month

temp can move alot in a zoa tank I would say you will be fine if it moves from 78-82 in 24 hours time keep it above 77 and below 83 and you are fine. you even have a deg or so to play with.

hope I helped you out a bit.

Roger

[Heavy]

That does help. It leades me to a couple of other questions though. What would be in the water for Zoas that wouldn't be in the water for SPS and LPS? What lighting would you rather see in this setup (no space for HM, only ~5" space over tank), should I think about trading it in in the future or should I add a second light?

Water= 1.023 SG, 79.0 F, .5-1.0 pmm Ammonia

Most of my filters are just running for water movement. The Aquaclear is the only one w/ media in it and it doesn't have carbon, just bio-beads. Do I need to change anything here?

[Heavy]

On another note I've got what looks to be quite a few dots of purple coraline algea (sp), what can I do to help ensure that it makes it through the initial cycling process?

[plateboy3293]

For posting pics go to photobucket.com and open up a free account and use the Img code that they will give you for each photo and post the img code in the reply box and the words will turn into a pic once posted.

[WaterKeeper]

[size=4]Hi Heavy[/size

To Reef Central

Wow, for a Newbie you have done some research (please don't reply it was blind luck ).

Roger gave you good advise. I think you wondering about the filters. If the HOBs are used for water circulation, on a small tank, they will do the job. If you want to add extra water volume, a sump is more appropriate. Keep doing your research and I'm sure you will find solutions either way.

[Heavy]

Thanks for the compliment, I've been reading pretty hard for a few days, not to mention buying kit. I think I've got another couple of Powerheads around here so I wont have to buy any.

Water: 1.0023 SG, Ammo .5-1.0 ppm, 80.4 F (decided to add a couple of degrees, hopefully for stability), no No-3 test yet only a couple of days in (how long and sever should the cycle be? couple weeks and 1.5+ ammo right?)

Here's some pics of the setup and LR, is my sand bed an appropriate depth to prevent fuddling with it too much if I get some snails that dig? (are there any crabs that turn over much substrate?):

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...0#post13517190

[Heavy]

and what are these purple crusty looking dots on all the rocks? Coraline algae (sp?)?

[shaginwagon13]

Originally posted by Heavy
and what are these purple crusty looking dots on all the rocks? Coraline algae (sp?)?

The purple 'dots' are Coraline algae....its a good thing

Soon it will look like this

[WaterKeeper]

As Martha Stewart would say,"A very good thingy".

However, ( I hate to give a Newbie a to much credit ), that sand looks pretty dead to me. Did you seed it with real LS?

[Heavy]

Wet sand in a plastic sack, not sure the brand anymore. Please do not give me credit, I don't want it no matter how good I sound, just been reading, never done it before and I need to learn through critical advice from people who know.

The tank is right by where I spend most days so it should get attention:

Water: 1.0023 SG, ammo .5-1.0ppm, 80.2 F

I saw some crazy looking plans for converting over-back filter to refugium (sp) w/ light and the engineer in me is just salivating at the prospect of hacking up a perfectly good filter, unfortunately the rest of me knows that the engineer in me didn't do that well in engineer school. I'll save that plan for later unless it comes highly recommended.

I put the PC lights on a styrofoam block to get some pics. Wide to close w/ pics of sand and algae. Macro mode is cool. How urgent is it that I keep light on this type of algae, what type of light is required? I think I have one 10k and one ansine (sp). Here's the pics:



left


right


mini cave


sand (dead looking to me too):


algae (looks alive, how do I keep it that way?)

[Heavy]

I still need to get a salt water specific magnetic algae scraper, that should help pics out. Eventually.

[Heavy]

I think I've only got a partial understanding on live sand and deep sand beds.

Live sand has bacteria in it that eats leftovers (ammonia and such things as result from it). By to "seed with real live sand" do you mean to take established sand from a tank, then add it to mine? When and how should I add the smaller organisms "pods"? Do they come in w/ the "live sand"?

Deep sand beds create an area for a different kind of bacteria which allows the ammonia to completely cycle in the tank as NO-3 is used and converted to gases. they are dangerous because they allow things to build up. Q: can NO-3 be removed through other processes like a refugium or LR?

Q2: Again, what sort of lighting is required to keep my precious (only visible life form) algae alive, if that is in fact what it is?

Q3: What sort of good stuff will zoas need in the water (was that earlier comment just about different food requirements?)?

Bonus Q: Any good soft corals to think of placing near, or to share a small tank with, zoas (haven't read on this at all)?

I've looked at mushrooms and like the pics but need to read more articles, not to mention re-reading zoanthid articles.

I got the LR from two different stores, the chunk is from my favorite boutique store and the branches are from petland the big box type store, 22 total lbs.

[Heavy]

OK, on lighting, I've got a Current 2x56W PC that I'm thinking of replacing w/ a Sunlight Tek Light T5 Hood - 24" x 4 bulb - bulbs are 24 watts each. I want my initial setup to be capable of not just having but growing Zoas and "clovers." Will I be able to do that with what I have or should I throw in another $200 to upgrade?

Or should I spend 90$+ on a smaller T-5 to add to the PC setup?

Help, lights are important, I think. (Newbie stress)

Thanks again guys!

[WaterKeeper]

Well, I can cover the sandbed questions. You have it right, in a FW tank we do all we can do to convert ammonia, first to nitrite, then to nitrate. Except for encouraging algae growth it is not a problem. In the SW world nitrate is toxic to most invertebrates. Here is where a DSB steps in. When properly functioning it too can convert toxic ammonia to nitrate but it doesn't stop there. As we travel deeper in the bed oxygen levels diminish and, those ever ingenious bacteria, start stripping the oxygen off the nitrate molecule (NO₃) so they can survive without large amounts of plain oxygen. This leaves only nitrogen gas that bubbles harmlessly out of the bed and into the air.

If one doesn't have a DSB then LR will also process nitrate. The only problem is that LR has limited pore structure and, worse yet, those pores tend to clog over time. When that happens nitrate levels start to rise. Having a fuge with macro algae can then help out. Plants need nitrogen and nitrate works fine. As it grows it uptakes nitrate and converts it into new plant growth. We can then prune the macro and remove it from the tank, exporting the locked up nitrogen in the algae tissue.

Ok?

BTW-most macro-algae will do well even under ordinary florescent lights,

[Heavy]

That helps me out a lot, I was hoping that I could get around the need for a DSB, at least initially.

How dangerous is a deep sand bed? Is it a matter of disturbing an old DSB while moving rock resulting in a negative disruption of the whole tank because of water quality, maybe killing tank life, or are they safer than that? What's a good min depth for a DSB?

On another note, after running my PC lighting for a couple of days I'm worried that it will have problems w/ heat. It has raised the tank tempt to 82.7 which is about 2-3 degrees over where the heaters leave it and I haven't left the lights on for more than a couple of hours. T-5 produces less heat right? Currently I'm looking at Sunlight Teks, I think they're called, but will probably have to order online. Wish me luck and give me some advice if you see where I need it.

Thanks for the help again

[WaterKeeper]

Heavy,

Their is a bunch of enthusiasts that shun DSB, saying they are nutrient sinks; yet they don't seem to have an alternative. If you have a bare bottom tank the LR does all the work and it is somewhat limited in processing capability (kinda like the RC server ). The problem is that most of those tanks do fine for a year or so, then crash.

People using a DSB do have problems but they don't wipe out the livestock.

Eighty two is the normal temp for a natural tropical reef. I wouldn't worry.

[Heavy]

I was just concerned about how fast it was going up, it wasn't stopping soon. Plus I've been hearing a lot of good things about T-5 w/ good reflectors when compared to PCs. I'll try to leave it on again but it made part of the tank cover pretty hot to the touch and I don't have room above the tank to space things out. I'm currently talking to my buddy about putting a 36" (nova exreme pro or tek) t-5 light in there for the added options, plus I like the way T-5 light looks.

Additionally, I figure that I could use the extra inches of quality light to support a fuge. It seems like a fun project to try to make my own glass aquarium, and this will let me try it w/ a small size and non-critical amount of water. I'm planning on trying to do it just like an over-sized over-the-back filter, unless there is a better proven way of doing this sort of thing. (I want to limit my spillage potential: Fuge breaks=5-6 G, Fuge overflow = 1-2G, that's acceptable to me, especially since i think I'll probably be able to prevent those things by learn'n) The water quality control potential of this also sounds pretty good to me. Then maybe DSB in fuge unless there's some reason not to.

PS: Should my live sand have had critters in it or just bacteria? What's the best source for starter live sand?

[Heavy]

Traded in the PC for a Nova Extreme 4x39W 36" because the LFS didn't have anything w/ individual reflectors and I figure I can add them later on if there are any problems. Here's to hoping this thing will make heat easier to manage.

I used 36" because of the increased options and because of the possibility of adding a refugium next to the main tank, bullocks to aesthetics. i'll post some pics after I unscrew the light that was intended for the desk.

Edit: Here's the tank, looks pretty much the same if not a little brighter, I used manual WB to take the shot, it's a little bluer in real life, need to get a neutral grey card or something to take pictures properly. I also need to mount the light properly but currently heat buildup doesn't seem as bad, we'll see though. I may have to use my feet drying fan as a tank cooling fan.



On the plus side this light is much quieter than the Current PC I did have, and it seems to be moving the same amount of hot air out the vent, but it is heating up still, I may have to run it in staggered periods or at half power on occasions. Tank temp 82.2, how high can it get before I get into the danger zone (I'm just at the beginning of this tank's first cycle)?

[Heavy]

Re-worked the rock, and tried to find a better way to do WB, used the grey table, duh. Mover desks light over a couple of feet to make room for 36" light. I think that its still a bit bluer in real life but this is close.

How hot is too hot (dangerously hot, for me even relatively close to dangerously hot is too hot w/ this small tank)? 82 is safe, what about 86 F? safe for everything?

[Toglco]

Woaaaahhhh, 86 is waaayyyy too hot!!! I think 99% of reef tanks are within the range of 77-81 degrees.

Personally I would suggest that you try and get it somewhere around 78-80.

[WaterKeeper]

When did it reach 86º? Last post it was a little over 82.

[Heavy]

It never reached that, I was just posing a hypothetical, sorry to be unclear. Right now its 82.9 which is the current all time high, guess I need a fan, maybe a chiller. Goodbye foot fan. Sorry to get everyone riled up over nothing.

Water (30 min after adding fan)
81.7 F and falling
<0.5ppm Ammo
1.023 SG
<12.5 mg/l

[Heavy]

I take it 86F is way to hot, I saw 85F in another post about Chicopee Phill's 110G that 85F was the max, I know the speed of the shift has a lot to do with it, but I wanted to know what cook temp was so that I can stay away from it. Sorry again about making everyone jump, and for you kids at home that's why you do you're own research (we all need to practice searching) to avoid cardiac episodes.

[WaterKeeper]

86º would be a warning level, meaning you need to take action. I've seen tanks go over 90 for short periods without major problems but if the temp stays that high for a sustained duration problems will arise.

The problem is not with fish, I sometimes run a hospital tank at 90º as that speeds up the lifecycle of the parasite and allow for a shorter quarantine period, but for most inverts you would have a problem. As with all things it depends on the species and where it is collected.