Treated wood and stand/basment floor

luvreefs23 · 10/28/2008, 03:34 PM

Im going to be building a stand for my 180 that will be connected to the basment wall to look as if its part of the wall. Question is do i use treated wood as the bottom frame and tapcon it to the concrete floor and use regular wood for the rest of the stand? I want something strong that will last 10+ years.

Thanks
Dennis

paulyl61 · 10/28/2008, 05:43 PM

Pressure treated would be a good idea even if your basement is nice and dry (spills do happen) but no reason to Tapcon it to the floor. With more than 1500 lbs on the stand there is no chance it is going to slide around

8BALL_99 · 10/28/2008, 09:06 PM

Won't hurt. When I built my stand for my 92 and my 190 I used treated for the bottoms of both since they sit directly on the slab. I nailed my 190 to the slab since it was built a little like a In wall.. The 92 just sits on the slab with no nails or tapcons. No real reason to attach it to the floor since its not going to budge once its filled up.. But it won't hurt to either..

luvreefs23 · 10/28/2008, 11:03 PM

So I have no reason to worry about it splitting or twisting like normal pressure treated wood does cause of the weight? I just remember seeing someone here building a stand with pt wood and everyone tellin em to redo it with reg wood, maybe cause he did the whole stand with pt wood?

8BALL_99 · 10/29/2008, 07:15 AM

Treated plywood is JUNK for building any kind of funiture. Thats pretty much what your doing.. Treated lumber does tend to bow on open spans more. But for the bottom of a stand its fine.. Think of it this way you will have a Box sitting on flat ground with Vertical supports pushing down on the wood. Its not like your using it to support weight in the middle of a 8 foot span or something..

BeanAnimal · 10/29/2008, 06:22 PM

By code, treated wood should not be used indoors due to the chemicals used in the treatment process that are soaked into the wood.

That said, a few 2x4 pieces would not bother me. Is it needed? Not really. It would take decades for pine 2x4 to rot away on the dampest of basement floors.

As others have mentioned, there is no need to nail it to the concrete either.

barjam · 10/29/2008, 07:54 PM

That is interesting, the bottom board on the walls in my finished basement are pressure treated. I did the same to my (in wall) stand figuring it wasn't a bad idea.

Oh well, not going to remove it now.

BeanAnimal · 10/29/2008, 08:01 PM

I would not worry too much about it

marcelft · 10/29/2008, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
By code, treated wood should not be used indoors due to the chemicals used in the treatment process that are soaked into the wood.

That said, a few 2x4 pieces would not bother me. Is it needed? Not really. It would take decades for pine 2x4 to rot away on the dampest of basement floors.

As others have mentioned, there is no need to nail it to the concrete either.

Codes differ alot around the country.
Pressure treated wood is used in home building, all exterior walls have pressure treated sills, which in a sense are inside the outdoor sheeting of the home. Bathrooms use PT alot.

Found this on web:
"EPA has not advised against the interior use of arsenical treated wood because the arsenic air levels measured in homes constructed with this type of treated wood are not significantly different from background arsenic air levels when dust has been vacuumed from the wood surface. Therefore, wood that is pressure-treated with water-borned arsenical preservations may be used inside residences wtihout a sealer, providing that all machined sawdust is vacuumed from the wood surface."

8BALL_99 · 10/29/2008, 09:26 PM

I thought the changed PT lumber a while back to cut down on the Toxic chemicals? I know yellow wood brags about it.. But I thought all of it was a little less toxic. All My exterior walls have PT sills. I agree they are pretty much in the house.. Pull the base boards up and you can see them so its not like they are sealed off

BeanAnimal · 10/29/2008, 11:11 PM

The new stuff is less toxic according to the new specs but still not for indoor use. I just built a 600 sq foot deck out of the new stuff. It is great looking, but I have my doubts about its longevity. New and improved eco friendly and safe usually means "less of the good stuff that worked and more expensive".

2x6 joists

finsihed deck

Preparing to install latice: Notice "old style" treated lumber along ground, it is much greener and less natural looking.

BeanAnimal · 10/29/2008, 11:13 PM

Yes those are pocket holes in the railings... I couldn't help myself!
Yes I used hidden fasteners on the decking, I did not want to see or deal with nails or screws in the decking surface!

dots · 10/30/2008, 12:19 AM

The "green" in PT is caused from Copper Naphlate (sp.) if memory serves.....as we all know copper is no bueno in el reef so I would try to limit all sources. A bottom plate would be fine.

There was a black type ACZA? that smelled of ammonia and had white crystals on it......smelly stuff.

I worked in a number of lumber yards while attending college, and trust me.....the stuff is nasty. I have heard of guys getting slivers and waking up with visiable striations running up the arm the next morning.

Bean.....what did you use for the "bars", is that copper pipe?

BeanAnimal · 10/30/2008, 12:25 AM

There are a buttload of treatments that have been used over the yeas... but yest the green is from one of the many different copper based treatments. The copper is blended with Arsenic, Borate, Chlorides, etc...

The balusters are powder coated aluminum held in place with plasic stays attached with stainless screws. The plastic stays also prevent the Aluminum from contacting the treated lumber.

FWIW ACQ lumber is hard on even the best galvanized fasteners. The new style treatment is suposed to be much easier on them.

Old style (ACQ) lumber will rot through drywall or electro- galvanzied fasteners in months! You MUST use ACQ rated fasteners!

dots · 10/30/2008, 12:41 AM

Did you fill them? I remember that helps against bending them.

Just a thought......

BeanAnimal · 10/30/2008, 06:36 AM

No, I thought about it but did not bother. They are fairly rigid. It would take an idiot doing something stupid to bend them. That would make me angry and then I would have to cause somebody discomfort.

therealfatman · 10/30/2008, 06:58 AM

If money is not a huge factor get composite decking boards that are made up of resins and wood fibers. It is used in all the top dollar decks made to last any appreciable length of time. They do however have some what the appearance of plastic, but they are cut and screwed like wood and will last nearly for ever.

I definitely would not use any form of pressure treated wood inside a well insulated, tight home, without an air to air heat exchanger. With copper treated wood you will need to use stainless steel or brass screws and definitely not used galvanized nails or gusset plates. I do not recommend aluminum nails. Most of the really toxic pressure treatments have been discontinued as they have been publically exposed as unsafe. However, we are finding out regularly that a lot of solvents and chemical compositions we thought safe really are not all that safe. For an example, benzene used to be a very common solvent used even to produce food stocks.

It might help to remember that nearly all tank stands are grossly over built. Lumber is very strong in compression, and if the tank is all glass it would theoretically need no more than a small upright stick in each corner to hold it up. Most of what goes into a tank stand is used to keep those corners upright ie. to prevent their toppling. A good quality all glass tank can usually be supported entirely by its corners, but not an acrylic tank which need full bottom support. Diagonal bracing is much more important than using full bottom floor plates which are not needed at all. However, bottom plates make diagonal barcing easier as the diagonals can be attached to it instead of to bottom of the uprights.

BeanAnimal · 10/30/2008, 07:20 AM

Quote:

and if the tank is all glass it would theoretically need no more than a small upright stick in each corner to hold it up

That is not really true. That places the panels and seams in shear. Resting the tank on its entire perimeter does not

das75 · 10/30/2008, 10:54 AM

I'd just use regular wood without securing to floor.

btw, for the lower plate in basement construction here it's recommended (don't believe code) that the 2x4 or 2x6 be placed on a gasket (basically just a long strip 3.5" or 5.5" wide closed cell foam that can be bought at HD in 100' rolls, it's about a 1/8" thick).

scrombussquared · 10/31/2008, 06:24 AM

Another acceptable alternative to a PT sill plate would be to cut a piece of 30 lb. roofing felt and use it under the wall that touches the floor. The idea is to keep the untreated wood from coming into concrete, which always has some degree of moisture in it. We all know what happens next.
That deck is beautiful, BA. This compliment from a cabinetmaker.

BeanAnimal · 10/31/2008, 07:01 AM

Thank very much. I called several deck contractors to get prices. The bids were jaw dropping, and most did not include proper footers, hidden fasteners or the railing styles I wanted. So, I did it myself. I will post a phot gallery on my website when I get a chance.

Thanks again for the kind words!

Builders felt under the plate is a great idea.

10/28/2008, 03:34 PM	#1
luvreefs23 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 758	Treated wood and stand/basment floor Im going to be building a stand for my 180 that will be connected to the basment wall to look as if its part of the wall. Question is do i use treated wood as the bottom frame and tapcon it to the concrete floor and use regular wood for the rest of the stand? I want something strong that will last 10+ years. Thanks Dennis

10/28/2008, 09:06 PM	#3
8BALL_99 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Toney, AL Posts: 3,724	Won't hurt. When I built my stand for my 92 and my 190 I used treated for the bottoms of both since they sit directly on the slab. I nailed my 190 to the slab since it was built a little like a In wall.. The 92 just sits on the slab with no nails or tapcons. No real reason to attach it to the floor since its not going to budge once its filled up.. But it won't hurt to either.. __________________ The problem with political jokes is they get elected. OK, so what's the speed of dark? Why do we drive on the parkway and park in the driveway? Isn't is it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice"? Current Tank Info: Custom Starfire 300,92Gallon,35 Gallon Hex,Two 40Gallons,125Gallon,

10/29/2008, 07:15 AM	#5
8BALL_99 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Toney, AL Posts: 3,724	Treated plywood is JUNK for building any kind of funiture. Thats pretty much what your doing.. Treated lumber does tend to bow on open spans more. But for the bottom of a stand its fine.. Think of it this way you will have a Box sitting on flat ground with Vertical supports pushing down on the wood. Its not like your using it to support weight in the middle of a 8 foot span or something.. __________________ The problem with political jokes is they get elected. OK, so what's the speed of dark? Why do we drive on the parkway and park in the driveway? Isn't is it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice"? Current Tank Info: Custom Starfire 300,92Gallon,35 Gallon Hex,Two 40Gallons,125Gallon,

10/29/2008, 09:26 PM	#10
8BALL_99 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Toney, AL Posts: 3,724	I thought the changed PT lumber a while back to cut down on the Toxic chemicals? I know yellow wood brags about it.. But I thought all of it was a little less toxic. All My exterior walls have PT sills. I agree they are pretty much in the house.. Pull the base boards up and you can see them so its not like they are sealed off __________________ The problem with political jokes is they get elected. OK, so what's the speed of dark? Why do we drive on the parkway and park in the driveway? Isn't is it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice"? Current Tank Info: Custom Starfire 300,92Gallon,35 Gallon Hex,Two 40Gallons,125Gallon,

10/30/2008, 12:19 AM	#13
dots Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 6,258	The "green" in PT is caused from Copper Naphlate (sp.) if memory serves.....as we all know copper is no bueno in el reef so I would try to limit all sources. A bottom plate would be fine. There was a black type ACZA? that smelled of ammonia and had white crystals on it......smelly stuff. I worked in a number of lumber yards while attending college, and trust me.....the stuff is nasty. I have heard of guys getting slivers and waking up with visiable striations running up the arm the next morning. Bean.....what did you use for the "bars", is that copper pipe? __________________ ~Doug

10/28/2008, 05:43 PM	#2
paulyl61 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Harrah, OK Posts: 280	Pressure treated would be a good idea even if your basement is nice and dry (spills do happen) but no reason to Tapcon it to the floor. With more than 1500 lbs on the stand there is no chance it is going to slide around

10/28/2008, 11:03 PM	#4
luvreefs23 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 758	So I have no reason to worry about it splitting or twisting like normal pressure treated wood does cause of the weight? I just remember seeing someone here building a stand with pt wood and everyone tellin em to redo it with reg wood, maybe cause he did the whole stand with pt wood?

10/29/2008, 06:22 PM	#6
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	By code, treated wood should not be used indoors due to the chemicals used in the treatment process that are soaked into the wood. That said, a few 2x4 pieces would not bother me. Is it needed? Not really. It would take decades for pine 2x4 to rot away on the dampest of basement floors. As others have mentioned, there is no need to nail it to the concrete either.

10/29/2008, 07:54 PM	#7
barjam Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,695	That is interesting, the bottom board on the walls in my finished basement are pressure treated. I did the same to my (in wall) stand figuring it wasn't a bad idea. Oh well, not going to remove it now.

10/29/2008, 08:01 PM	#8
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	I would not worry too much about it

10/29/2008, 11:11 PM	#11
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	The new stuff is less toxic according to the new specs but still not for indoor use. I just built a 600 sq foot deck out of the new stuff. It is great looking, but I have my doubts about its longevity. New and improved eco friendly and safe usually means "less of the good stuff that worked and more expensive". 2x6 joists finsihed deck Preparing to install latice: Notice "old style" treated lumber along ground, it is much greener and less natural looking.

10/29/2008, 11:13 PM	#12
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Yes those are pocket holes in the railings... I couldn't help myself! Yes I used hidden fasteners on the decking, I did not want to see or deal with nails or screws in the decking surface!

10/30/2008, 12:25 AM	#14
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	There are a buttload of treatments that have been used over the yeas... but yest the green is from one of the many different copper based treatments. The copper is blended with Arsenic, Borate, Chlorides, etc... The balusters are powder coated aluminum held in place with plasic stays attached with stainless screws. The plastic stays also prevent the Aluminum from contacting the treated lumber. FWIW ACQ lumber is hard on even the best galvanized fasteners. The new style treatment is suposed to be much easier on them. Old style (ACQ) lumber will rot through drywall or electro- galvanzied fasteners in months! You MUST use ACQ rated fasteners!

10/30/2008, 12:41 AM	#15
dots Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 6,258	Did you fill them? I remember that helps against bending them. Just a thought...... __________________ ~Doug

10/30/2008, 06:36 AM	#16
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	No, I thought about it but did not bother. They are fairly rigid. It would take an idiot doing something stupid to bend them. That would make me angry and then I would have to cause somebody discomfort.

10/30/2008, 06:58 AM	#17
therealfatman Moved On Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 1,471	If money is not a huge factor get composite decking boards that are made up of resins and wood fibers. It is used in all the top dollar decks made to last any appreciable length of time. They do however have some what the appearance of plastic, but they are cut and screwed like wood and will last nearly for ever. I definitely would not use any form of pressure treated wood inside a well insulated, tight home, without an air to air heat exchanger. With copper treated wood you will need to use stainless steel or brass screws and definitely not used galvanized nails or gusset plates. I do not recommend aluminum nails. Most of the really toxic pressure treatments have been discontinued as they have been publically exposed as unsafe. However, we are finding out regularly that a lot of solvents and chemical compositions we thought safe really are not all that safe. For an example, benzene used to be a very common solvent used even to produce food stocks. It might help to remember that nearly all tank stands are grossly over built. Lumber is very strong in compression, and if the tank is all glass it would theoretically need no more than a small upright stick in each corner to hold it up. Most of what goes into a tank stand is used to keep those corners upright ie. to prevent their toppling. A good quality all glass tank can usually be supported entirely by its corners, but not an acrylic tank which need full bottom support. Diagonal bracing is much more important than using full bottom floor plates which are not needed at all. However, bottom plates make diagonal barcing easier as the diagonals can be attached to it instead of to bottom of the uprights.

10/30/2008, 10:54 AM	#19
das75 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Edmonton AB Posts: 2,269	I'd just use regular wood without securing to floor. btw, for the lower plate in basement construction here it's recommended (don't believe code) that the 2x4 or 2x6 be placed on a gasket (basically just a long strip 3.5" or 5.5" wide closed cell foam that can be bought at HD in 100' rolls, it's about a 1/8" thick).

10/31/2008, 06:24 AM	#20
scrombussquared Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Port Fierce, FL Posts: 177	Another acceptable alternative to a PT sill plate would be to cut a piece of 30 lb. roofing felt and use it under the wall that touches the floor. The idea is to keep the untreated wood from coming into concrete, which always has some degree of moisture in it. We all know what happens next. That deck is beautiful, BA. This compliment from a cabinetmaker.

10/31/2008, 07:01 AM	#21
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Thank very much. I called several deck contractors to get prices. The bids were jaw dropping, and most did not include proper footers, hidden fasteners or the railing styles I wanted. So, I did it myself. I will post a phot gallery on my website when I get a chance. Thanks again for the kind words! Builders felt under the plate is a great idea.