Residue build up on glass inside of newly set up saltwater tank. Fish dying.

66imper · 05/02/2009, 07:31 PM

I am getting back into the hobby after a few years. I recently set up a 20 gallon saltwater FOWLR. After it was set up a couple hours, a white residue covered every inch of the glass in the tank. The only way for me to remove it was to razor it off.

After cycling: Temp - 76 deg, Salinity-1.024, PH 8.4 (using sodium bicarbonate to increase), no ammonia, no nitrites, nitrates - 10ppm
Aquaclear HOB, Aqua C Nano skimmer, 400 Maxi-jet, 20 lbs Live Sand (contained sea water in bag), tank ground

I let the tank cycle completely. I took a water sample to the LFS and it matched my findings - OK. I purchased a clown and acclimated it to the tank water for about an hour (floating the bag and slowly adding tank water to it). After 2 hours in the tank, the clown died. I performed a large water change and allowed the tank to run a few days. I purchased a cardinal and it died a couple hours after acclimation and introducing it into the tank.

Last weekend, I completely tore the tank down. I thoroughly cleaned all equipment with a water/vinegar solution then rinsed and dried. I set the tank back up today. I purchased new substrate and rinsed. I only had 10 gallons of RO water...the rest is from the tap. I switched from Reef Crystals back to Instant Ocean Sea Salt that I used in the 125 gallon I maintained for many years in the past. I did not re-use the live rock.

Temp - 76 deg, Salinity-1.022, PH 8.2, tank not cycled yet
Aquaclear HOB, Aqua C Nano skimmer, 400 Maxi-jet, 20 lbs Seachem Tidal Sand (dry in bag), tank ground

Within a couple hours after the 20 gallon was set up, the glass had the same residue built up as it did the first time. The magnetic glass cleaner would not clean it off. Once again, I had to razor blade it off. I contacted the LFS and asked about the water quality in the city and it stated the water is slightly hard, but not any different than other cities in the area. I did not experience this when I had my 125 gallon set up using water in the area.

What is this residue I'm fighting? I have never experienced this before. I do not want to kill any more fish.

I appreciate any help that could be offered.

THE ROOK · 05/02/2009, 07:53 PM

You need to invest in a RODI unit. That's likely your problem. Also, shouldn't need to mess with any buffers, imo. Never used them with either I.O. salt or Reef Crystals.

Sisterlimonpot · 05/02/2009, 08:24 PM

66imper, Welcome to Reef Central. Was the tank new? If it's not new, what was the tank used for previously? And as mentioned it is highly advised to use RODI but I can't imagine this being the source of the problem. Do you have lights on the tank yet? And can you post a picture of what you have on your glass?

66imper · 05/02/2009, 09:01 PM

Thanks for the welcome.

The tank was brand new. I do have lights on the tank, but only since this afternoon after setting the tank up this morning.

The residue is starting to accumulate again after removing it earlier today with a razor. I'll try to grab a picture in the morning and post it.

As far as the RO water, I'll need to have my containers refilled. I will perform a water change as soon as I can.

I was poking around the rest of the website and saw a post that may be similar to what I am experiencing...high levels of calcium carbonate. Can high levels of calcium carbonate harm the fish as quickly as a couple hours to the point they die? Does it deplete oxygen in the water?

PRDubois · 05/02/2009, 09:04 PM

This sounds like a question for Randy or the Waterkeeper
Out of my league

goochesfish · 05/02/2009, 10:55 PM

sounds like the calcium is precipitating out. Are you adding calcium and buffer at the same time? What is your Ca+2 and kH?

66imper · 05/03/2009, 07:08 AM

I haven't added any calcium or buffers.

I don't have the test kit to check KH and calcium levels yet. I plan to pick up a kit today.

I threw in a couple pieces of filter pad in the bottom of the Aquaclear basket to pick up any left over dust from the gravel. I checked it this morning and it collected debris and became as hard as a brick. I imagine part of the reason is the calcium.

I'm going to pick up some more RO water and perform a water change.

I appreciate the help everyone has provided. Glad I joined the forum.

WaterKeeper · 05/04/2009, 08:00 AM

It would be a sound move to try the purchased RO water and see what happens. It sounds like it may be the tap water has a high Langelier' Saturation Index. This is a scale used to determine water's ability to hold calcium carbonate in solution. Negative values mean a somewhat corrosive water while positive values indicate the water is plating. Usually when mixing ASW it adjusts without problem but if it is highly saturated it will cause calcium precipitation. I'd also not use the bicarb to raise pH if the freshly mixed ASW has a pH of 7.9 or higher. Here's Randy's article on Low pH, Causes and Cures

I'm a bit at a loss about the fish dying. Calcium precipitation would not harm fish. It may be that you are not adding enough dechlorinator and that chlorine or chloramines are causing the deaths. RO/DI would solve both the precipitation and disinfectant problems at the same time.

Wett Hands · 05/04/2009, 10:56 AM

Sorry to hear about your bad luck 66. How long did it take the tank to cycle before you added the clown that died?

inovrmyhd · 05/04/2009, 11:38 AM

I had the same problem with the white film on my tank when I set it up. I scraped it off and let the tank cycle. I've added 4 fish and a few corals and have not lost anything in the 6 months it's been stocked. I don't have any advice for you but wanted to let you know that it's very possible you could be dealing with 2 separate problems.

kenqc · 05/04/2009, 11:40 AM

I suspect that the tank never cycled as to why the fish died. Did you test the water immediately following the fishes deaths? I would guess Ammonia? The calcium issue is coincidental to the deaths, but bothersome nonetheless. try RODI water, feed the tank without fish, verify that ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are present, spike and then decline (nitrate may just climb and not retreat unless you change the water). Do not perform any water changes until the ammonia and nitrite spike, then fall to zero.

RRaider · 05/04/2009, 01:00 PM

A single clownfish added to a 20 gallon aquarium will not create enough ammonia to kill it in 2 hours.

66imper · 05/04/2009, 06:48 PM

Thanks for all of the info. Very helpful.

The first time I had the tank set up and lost the fish, it cycled with live rock. I double checked the water quality at the LFS and it matched the results I had - all good (see my first post).

I picked up more RO water to have on hand for my next couple of water changes.

I'll start the cycle this time using the fishless method. Is there anything I should keep in mind that anyone has discovered when using the fishless method?

WaterKeeper · 05/08/2009, 02:53 PM

Imper,

How are things working out?

Wett Hands · 05/09/2009, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 66imper
Thanks for all of the info. Very helpful.

The first time I had the tank set up and lost the fish, it cycled with live rock. I double checked the water quality at the LFS and it matched the results I had - all good (see my first post).

I don't think I got an answer to my question about specifically how long did it take to cycle? Or more to the point, did you see your levels spike, and then decline to the levels that matched the LFS levels.

I ask because with my very 1st tank, the cycle didn't really start as I thought. I just took a water sample to my LFS after a few weeks and since they matched my results I thought I was OK when in actuality the levels were low because it was just clean RO water.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that not the tank did not really cycle. It is 3:30 AM however, and I am sleep deprived from surfing the SPS and Zoa forums...

66imper · 05/09/2009, 07:04 AM

I started to cylce the tank last week by feeding it small amount of frozen fish food each day.

I checked the ammonia level this morning and it appears the cycle has not started yet. I'll keep on keepin' on until it cycles.

THE ROOK · 05/09/2009, 08:39 AM

If your rock is cycled already then it may be unlikely you'll see any ammonia. My live rock was from an existing system & there was no ammonia spike even with a 100lbs of new sand.

66imper · 05/10/2009, 06:31 AM

When I re-set the tank up within the last couple of weeks, I decided not to re-use the live rock. I basically started over with a fish-only tank.

ludiNano · 05/10/2009, 07:49 AM

You need to get some live rock in there.

How long did you let cycle the first time and with how much live rock?

good luck.

Sisterlimonpot · 05/10/2009, 07:52 AM

66, Now that you are going to remove your LR, what are you going to use for your biological filtration?

ChrisKirkland · 05/10/2009, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 66imper
I started to cylce the tank last week by feeding it small amount of frozen fish food each day.

I checked the ammonia level this morning and it appears the cycle has not started yet. I'll keep on keepin' on until it cycles.

The best cheap way to cycle a tank is to take a piece of uncooked raw shrimp and drop it in... In a week or two weeks time the shrimp will have bacteria growing on it and your cycle will have begun...

66imper · 05/10/2009, 05:23 PM

Biological filtration...

Years ago, I only used a canister filter and undergravel filter in the fish-only 125g I ran with no issues. In the 20L, I'm not running an undergravel filter and have an Aquaclear HOB plus Aqua C skimmer.

For a fish-only, could I run filter floss in the bottom of the Aquaclear basket to pick up the large debris with two foam blocks above the floss to acheive some biological?

I was thinking of clearing off the "dead" live rock by soaking in a small qty of bleach, then soak and continually resoak in water/de-chlorinator over several days until the bleach odor is eliminated. I would reuse the rock to provide a home for new bacteria...biological. I used to clean the decorations in my 125g in this manner to remove algea with no issues. Any thoughts against this?

THE ROOK · 05/10/2009, 07:09 PM

I think bleaching the live rock is a bad idea. If it was purchased from your LFS or an existing tank then I doubt it's your problem.

Trying to run a saltwater tank without live rock seems like a recipe for failure these days. Never seen a successful one since I've been on here.

I'm going for a longshot here, but I noticed your using a tank ground. I wonder if there is current flowing thru the tank causing something to precipitate out. Otherwise I've got to believe it's the buffer or some other added chemical. RO water is a must in this situation also.

You could try doing it over. Start with RO water & salt for a day or so. Once the temp & salinity are correct & everything seems good, add your substrate. Then leave alone for a few days. If all is still well, throw in some of the live rock & continue to watch your system for a week. No need to worry about buffers or any other test besides salinity at this point.

This way you'll be able to see exactly what is causing the issue without ruining live rock.

05/02/2009, 07:31 PM	#1
66imper Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Columbia, TN Posts: 14	Residue build up on glass inside of newly set up saltwater tank. Fish dying. I am getting back into the hobby after a few years. I recently set up a 20 gallon saltwater FOWLR. After it was set up a couple hours, a white residue covered every inch of the glass in the tank. The only way for me to remove it was to razor it off. After cycling: Temp - 76 deg, Salinity-1.024, PH 8.4 (using sodium bicarbonate to increase), no ammonia, no nitrites, nitrates - 10ppm Aquaclear HOB, Aqua C Nano skimmer, 400 Maxi-jet, 20 lbs Live Sand (contained sea water in bag), tank ground I let the tank cycle completely. I took a water sample to the LFS and it matched my findings - OK. I purchased a clown and acclimated it to the tank water for about an hour (floating the bag and slowly adding tank water to it). After 2 hours in the tank, the clown died. I performed a large water change and allowed the tank to run a few days. I purchased a cardinal and it died a couple hours after acclimation and introducing it into the tank. Last weekend, I completely tore the tank down. I thoroughly cleaned all equipment with a water/vinegar solution then rinsed and dried. I set the tank back up today. I purchased new substrate and rinsed. I only had 10 gallons of RO water...the rest is from the tap. I switched from Reef Crystals back to Instant Ocean Sea Salt that I used in the 125 gallon I maintained for many years in the past. I did not re-use the live rock. Temp - 76 deg, Salinity-1.022, PH 8.2, tank not cycled yet Aquaclear HOB, Aqua C Nano skimmer, 400 Maxi-jet, 20 lbs Seachem Tidal Sand (dry in bag), tank ground Within a couple hours after the 20 gallon was set up, the glass had the same residue built up as it did the first time. The magnetic glass cleaner would not clean it off. Once again, I had to razor blade it off. I contacted the LFS and asked about the water quality in the city and it stated the water is slightly hard, but not any different than other cities in the area. I did not experience this when I had my 125 gallon set up using water in the area. What is this residue I'm fighting? I have never experienced this before. I do not want to kill any more fish. I appreciate any help that could be offered. Last edited by 66imper; 05/02/2009 at 07:53 PM.

05/02/2009, 08:24 PM	#3
Sisterlimonpot R.C. Fraternity President Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Litchfeild Park AZ Posts: 11,490 Blog Entries: 2	66imper, Welcome to Reef Central. Was the tank new? If it's not new, what was the tank used for previously? And as mentioned it is highly advised to use RODI but I can't imagine this being the source of the problem. Do you have lights on the tank yet? And can you post a picture of what you have on your glass? __________________ Jimmy MASVC President Dishes are done man! Current Tank Info: 300 in progress

05/02/2009, 09:04 PM	#5
PRDubois Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Chester, VA Posts: 3,626	This sounds like a question for Randy or the Waterkeeper Out of my league __________________ http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2534403 Current Tank Info: 225 gal Reef, 60 gal reef & 40b frag tank

05/04/2009, 08:00 AM	#8
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	It would be a sound move to try the purchased RO water and see what happens. It sounds like it may be the tap water has a high Langelier' Saturation Index. This is a scale used to determine water's ability to hold calcium carbonate in solution. Negative values mean a somewhat corrosive water while positive values indicate the water is plating. Usually when mixing ASW it adjusts without problem but if it is highly saturated it will cause calcium precipitation. I'd also not use the bicarb to raise pH if the freshly mixed ASW has a pH of 7.9 or higher. Here's Randy's article on Low pH, Causes and Cures I'm a bit at a loss about the fish dying. Calcium precipitation would not harm fish. It may be that you are not adding enough dechlorinator and that chlorine or chloramines are causing the deaths. RO/DI would solve both the precipitation and disinfectant problems at the same time. __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

05/04/2009, 10:56 AM	#9
Wett Hands Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: WNY Posts: 297	Sorry to hear about your bad luck 66. How long did it take the tank to cycle before you added the clown that died? __________________ "But since your going the other way. I'm afraid, you're going have to get scared... immediately. Current Tank Info: One 10gal, Two 20H FW Planted tanks, 27gal hex BW, 75gal Reef, 3gal Pico Tank

05/02/2009, 07:53 PM	#2
THE ROOK Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Springfield, MA Posts: 2,100	You need to invest in a RODI unit. That's likely your problem. Also, shouldn't need to mess with any buffers, imo. Never used them with either I.O. salt or Reef Crystals.

05/02/2009, 09:01 PM	#4
66imper Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Columbia, TN Posts: 14	Thanks for the welcome. The tank was brand new. I do have lights on the tank, but only since this afternoon after setting the tank up this morning. The residue is starting to accumulate again after removing it earlier today with a razor. I'll try to grab a picture in the morning and post it. As far as the RO water, I'll need to have my containers refilled. I will perform a water change as soon as I can. I was poking around the rest of the website and saw a post that may be similar to what I am experiencing...high levels of calcium carbonate. Can high levels of calcium carbonate harm the fish as quickly as a couple hours to the point they die? Does it deplete oxygen in the water?

05/02/2009, 10:55 PM	#6
goochesfish Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,305	sounds like the calcium is precipitating out. Are you adding calcium and buffer at the same time? What is your Ca+2 and kH?

05/03/2009, 07:08 AM	#7
66imper Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Columbia, TN Posts: 14	I haven't added any calcium or buffers. I don't have the test kit to check KH and calcium levels yet. I plan to pick up a kit today. I threw in a couple pieces of filter pad in the bottom of the Aquaclear basket to pick up any left over dust from the gravel. I checked it this morning and it collected debris and became as hard as a brick. I imagine part of the reason is the calcium. I'm going to pick up some more RO water and perform a water change. I appreciate the help everyone has provided. Glad I joined the forum.

05/04/2009, 11:38 AM	#10
inovrmyhd Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Scranton, PA Posts: 103	I had the same problem with the white film on my tank when I set it up. I scraped it off and let the tank cycle. I've added 4 fish and a few corals and have not lost anything in the 6 months it's been stocked. I don't have any advice for you but wanted to let you know that it's very possible you could be dealing with 2 separate problems. __________________ -- Tim -- Current Tank Info: 29gal, LS, LR, Yellowtail Damsel, Lawnmower Blenny (RIP), false percula, shrooms, candy cane, anemone, eagle eye and radioactive dragons eye zoas

05/04/2009, 11:40 AM	#11
kenqc Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: webster, NY Posts: 161	I suspect that the tank never cycled as to why the fish died. Did you test the water immediately following the fishes deaths? I would guess Ammonia? The calcium issue is coincidental to the deaths, but bothersome nonetheless. try RODI water, feed the tank without fish, verify that ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are present, spike and then decline (nitrate may just climb and not retreat unless you change the water). Do not perform any water changes until the ammonia and nitrite spike, then fall to zero. __________________ Ken aka King Hyperbole Current Tank Info: 60 gal beginning reef and 50 gal fowlrs

05/04/2009, 01:00 PM	#12
RRaider Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 703	A single clownfish added to a 20 gallon aquarium will not create enough ammonia to kill it in 2 hours.

05/04/2009, 06:48 PM	#13
66imper Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Columbia, TN Posts: 14	Thanks for all of the info. Very helpful. The first time I had the tank set up and lost the fish, it cycled with live rock. I double checked the water quality at the LFS and it matched the results I had - all good (see my first post). I picked up more RO water to have on hand for my next couple of water changes. I'll start the cycle this time using the fishless method. Is there anything I should keep in mind that anyone has discovered when using the fishless method?

05/08/2009, 02:53 PM	#14
WaterKeeper Bogus Information Expert Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 16,147	Imper, How are things working out? __________________ "Leading the information hungry reefer down the road to starvation" Tom Current Tank Info: 130 Now out of service and a 29

05/09/2009, 07:04 AM	#16
66imper Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Columbia, TN Posts: 14	I started to cylce the tank last week by feeding it small amount of frozen fish food each day. I checked the ammonia level this morning and it appears the cycle has not started yet. I'll keep on keepin' on until it cycles.

05/09/2009, 08:39 AM	#17
THE ROOK Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Springfield, MA Posts: 2,100	If your rock is cycled already then it may be unlikely you'll see any ammonia. My live rock was from an existing system & there was no ammonia spike even with a 100lbs of new sand.

05/10/2009, 06:31 AM	#18
66imper Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Columbia, TN Posts: 14	When I re-set the tank up within the last couple of weeks, I decided not to re-use the live rock. I basically started over with a fish-only tank.

05/10/2009, 07:49 AM	#19
ludiNano I'm becoming...Brundlefly Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bettendorf, Iowas Posts: 1,804	You need to get some live rock in there. How long did you let cycle the first time and with how much live rock? good luck. __________________ -The Loungers really contribute to RC.~ Agu -JoshTodd has a very good point. ~ R_Hudson -Fresh air will get the stink off ~ Carrie

05/10/2009, 07:52 AM	#20
Sisterlimonpot R.C. Fraternity President Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Litchfeild Park AZ Posts: 11,490 Blog Entries: 2	66, Now that you are going to remove your LR, what are you going to use for your biological filtration? __________________ Jimmy MASVC President Dishes are done man! Current Tank Info: 300 in progress

05/10/2009, 05:23 PM	#22
66imper Registered Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Columbia, TN Posts: 14	Biological filtration... Years ago, I only used a canister filter and undergravel filter in the fish-only 125g I ran with no issues. In the 20L, I'm not running an undergravel filter and have an Aquaclear HOB plus Aqua C skimmer. For a fish-only, could I run filter floss in the bottom of the Aquaclear basket to pick up the large debris with two foam blocks above the floss to acheive some biological? I was thinking of clearing off the "dead" live rock by soaking in a small qty of bleach, then soak and continually resoak in water/de-chlorinator over several days until the bleach odor is eliminated. I would reuse the rock to provide a home for new bacteria...biological. I used to clean the decorations in my 125g in this manner to remove algea with no issues. Any thoughts against this?

05/10/2009, 07:09 PM	#23
THE ROOK Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Springfield, MA Posts: 2,100	I think bleaching the live rock is a bad idea. If it was purchased from your LFS or an existing tank then I doubt it's your problem. Trying to run a saltwater tank without live rock seems like a recipe for failure these days. Never seen a successful one since I've been on here. I'm going for a longshot here, but I noticed your using a tank ground. I wonder if there is current flowing thru the tank causing something to precipitate out. Otherwise I've got to believe it's the buffer or some other added chemical. RO water is a must in this situation also. You could try doing it over. Start with RO water & salt for a day or so. Once the temp & salinity are correct & everything seems good, add your substrate. Then leave alone for a few days. If all is still well, throw in some of the live rock & continue to watch your system for a week. No need to worry about buffers or any other test besides salinity at this point. This way you'll be able to see exactly what is causing the issue without ruining live rock.