My new fish died

[wsz594]

A friend of mine gave me his 70g saltwater tank when he moved to PA yesterday. It is a fowlr setup with about 50 pds of live rock and 75 pds crushed coral as a substrate. It has a penn plax cascade 1200 filter as well with carbon and these little hexagonal tubes as media. The tank is about one year old. He has been teaching me the basics of maintenance over the last few week. It had a False Clown, 2 Blue Damsels, and another fish called a zebra fish. Anyway, I moved the tank and fish to my house but I put the crushed coral, live rock, filter, fish and the fishes own saltwater into a super clean dry 55g tank of my own. I did this so i could buff out some of the really bad scratches on the 70g tank and clean in up a bit. Anyway the fish just hid most of the time and then were all dead with in 24 hrs. I checked the specific gravity and it was about 1.25, which he tells me is this is only slightly high. Also cant find his nitrate tests, so i had to order some online. The only thing i think that could have happened is that all that fish poop and stuff that got stirred up in the move caused an ammonia spike. Any ideas anyone? what could have happened? I feel super bad for these fish and I dont want it to happen again.

[sdc19982002]

I would say it was due to disturbing the substrate. I would get rid of the crushed coral now while you can and use sand. You'll be happy that you did. Sorry about your loss.

[wsz594]

Ok, I just ordered 100 pnds of aragonite, also, do u think i should add more live rock?

[sdc19982002]

Yeah, I'd do another 30 to 50 #'s but you can by dry rock and save some money. Your existing rock will seed it in a few months.

[IslandCrow]

I'm assuming you mean the specific gravity was 1.025 (especially since I don't think you could measure SG that high on most hobby equipment) but please confirm. I wouldn't even bother testing for nitrates. It's almost impossible that was the culprit. Ammonia is certainly a possibility as well as a release of hydrogen sulfide if there were anoxic areas either under the crushed coral (would generally require some pretty deep CC) or somewhere else in the tank. If you have an ammonia test kit, I'd go ahead and test the water. Of course, any ammonia in there now could potentially be from the dead fish, so it will be difficult to nail that down as the problem unless it's really high.

When you made the transfer, were there any large changes in temperature or specific gravity between the old tank and the new? That could potentially send the fish into either thermal or osmotic shock, which could also kill them.

[snorvich]

What are you using to measure specific gravity? By the way, NSW is 1.0264 (on average) so you were a little low, not high.

[SL38]

You probably caused a small cycle when moving the tank and disturbing the substrate. Let it finish cycling before adding livestock.

[waterworld2]

Make sure you water test and perfomr some changes to keep paramters in line until the tank stabilizes. Take your time adding any new fish. Give it 6 months or so.

[mmedeiros2]

+1 waterworld2
I would keep the LR living, take out the crushed coral do a water change or two sucking out any junk down to the glass bottom, and add the sand and the additional LR or base rock, and let it run for 3 to 6 mos. as you normally would if live stock were in the tank. You might have to add some fish food every so often to cause some ammonia for the LR to feed on so that the bacteria will stay alive and not have to feed on itself as it dies off. I would add fish after 3 to 6 mos. 1 or 2 the most at a time if all parameters are okay with 1 mo. intervals between adding more fish. Take your time if you want things to go smooth. Mabey someone can chime in and confirm that this way is a good path to take.

[wsz594]

Originally posted by IslandCrow
I'm assuming you mean the specific gravity was 1.025 (especially since I don't think you could measure SG that high on most hobby equipment) but please confirm. I wouldn't even bother testing for nitrates. It's almost impossible that was the culprit. Ammonia is certainly a possibility as well as a release of hydrogen sulfide if there were anoxic areas either under the crushed coral (would generally require some pretty deep CC) or somewhere else in the tank. If you have an ammonia test kit, I'd go ahead and test the water. Of course, any ammonia in there now could potentially be from the dead fish, so it will be difficult to nail that down as the problem unless it's really high.

When you made the transfer, were there any large changes in temperature or specific gravity between the old tank and the new? That could potentially send the fish into either thermal or osmotic shock, which could also kill them.

Yes, i meant 1.025 sorry. My test kit is arriving tomorrow morning. When I moved the fish, they were kept in a 35g new clean plastic container, they rode with me in the cab of my truck with the ac on. The live rock rode in two containers carrying the remaining 35g. It was about 100 degrees outside.(I live in Tucson Arizona) The trip was about 40 min. The water in the live rock containers felt slightly warmer to the touch then the fish container. I put the crushed coral and live rock in first then added the fish with there 35g of water. I waited a few hours for the rest of the water to cool down then topped off the tank with it.

[wsz594]

Originally posted by snorvich
What are you using to measure specific gravity? By the way, NSW is 1.0264 (on average) so you were a little low, not high.

I am using a coralife deep six hydrometer. My reading was 1.025.

[wsz594]

Originally posted by waterworld2
Make sure you water test and perfomr some changes to keep paramters in line until the tank stabilizes. Take your time adding any new fish. Give it 6 months or so.

Ok, how often should i do changes and what percent of the water?

[wsz594]

Originally posted by mmedeiros2
+1 waterworld2
I would keep the LR living, take out the crushed coral do a water change or two sucking out any junk down to the glass bottom, and add the sand and the additional LR or base rock, and let it run for 3 to 6 mos. as you normally would if live stock were in the tank. You might have to add some fish food every so often to cause some ammonia for the LR to feed on so that the bacteria will stay alive and not have to feed on itself as it dies off. I would add fish after 3 to 6 mos. 1 or 2 the most at a time if all parameters are okay with 1 mo. intervals between adding more fish. Take your time if you want things to go smooth. Mabey someone can chime in and confirm that this way is a good path to take.

Im going to be moving the live rock into the permanent 70g tank when my sand gets here in about 2 days. Should I use the saltwater thats already in the 50g with the rock and top it off with fresh sw, or change out more of the water? Also will saltwater eventually clog my drains?

[mmedeiros2]

I would use the same water, and then for 3 to 6 mos. I would treat the tank as normal so that the biofiltration becomes well populated. Do a 20% water change with SW every month to replace minerals / buffering.
Top off evaporated water with fresh water. (No salt.) You should use at least RO water for FOWLR to rid the phosphate, silicate, and nitrate, along with any other minerals from the tap water. You might see somewhat of a cycle due to die off of the LR or dead mater on the LR or base rock that you are adding. I keep my SG at 1.021 for FOWLR.
Salt water will not clog the drains.

[snorvich]

If you really want to measure specific gravity, you will need a calibrated refractometer, not a hydrometer. This measurement is very important for acclimating fish, water changes, etc.

[otrlynn]

I'll just throw out here that 3-6 month to cycle the tank (before adding livestock) seems quite conservative to me. It sounds like you have been taking good care of the live rock and that the nitrification bacteria should be in good shape. There's nothing wrong with taking the 3-6 months, but I think you could get some livestock in there a little quicker. Once then new tank is set up with the sand, rock, and water, start measuring the water parameters. You should see a spike in ammonia (from the fish dying in the original tank), then a spike in nitrite, then a spike in nitrate. Do a water change, or two to get the nitrate down below 5-10 (zero is ideal). I am thinking this process might be completed within a month or so. At this point you could add a small clean up crew. Keep testing water, and a week or two later, I think you'd be good to start adding fish one at a time, with at least a week or two in between. Start with the least aggressive fish. Put an agressor in there first and he will believe he "owns" the whole tank...

P. S. Be sure to wash the sand to remove the dust. The easiest way is to take it outside, fill a bucket about 1/3 full of sand and blast it with the hose so that the sand really swirls around. Dump off the dust that rises to the top, rinse and repeat until the water coming off the top is pretty clear. You will lose a little sand to the grass, but not much if you are careful. Your water will still look a little cloudy when you put the sand in the tank, but it will clear.

P.P. S. Have you read the "New to" thread at the top of this forum? Lots of great info!

[wsz594]

Originally posted by snorvich
If you really want to measure specific gravity, you will need a calibrated refractometer, not a hydrometer. This measurement is very important for acclimating fish, water changes, etc.

Ok, sounds good, what brands do you recommend? Thanks 4 your help too.

[wsz594]

Originally posted by otrlynn
I'll just throw out here that 3-6 month to cycle the tank (before adding livestock) seems quite conservative to me. It sounds like you have been taking good care of the live rock and that the nitrification bacteria should be in good shape. There's nothing wrong with taking the 3-6 months, but I think you could get some livestock in there a little quicker. Once then new tank is set up with the sand, rock, and water, start measuring the water parameters. You should see a spike in ammonia (from the fish dying in the original tank), then a spike in nitrite, then a spike in nitrate. Do a water change, or two to get the nitrate down below 5-10 (zero is ideal). I am thinking this process might be completed within a month or so. At this point you could add a small clean up crew. Keep testing water, and a week or two later, I think you'd be good to start adding fish one at a time, with at least a week or two in between. Start with the least aggressive fish. Put an agressor in there first and he will believe he "owns" the whole tank...

P. S. Be sure to wash the sand to remove the dust. The easiest way is to take it outside, fill a bucket about 1/3 full of sand and blast it with the hose so that the sand really swirls around. Dump off the dust that rises to the top, rinse and repeat until the water coming off the top is pretty clear. You will lose a little sand to the grass, but not much if you are careful. Your water will still look a little cloudy when you put the sand in the tank, but it will clear.

P.P. S. Have you read the "New to" thread at the top of this forum? Lots of great info!

Yeah I checked it out. I have read like 2 or three books in the last month on saltwater keeping, I have the basics down and I know how the nitrogen cycle works. If this hobby is anything like other hobbies, the best information comes from getting several views from seasoned aquarists like yourselves.

[murfman]

3-6 months is way too long for a cycle. A cycle USUALLY is complete in a month or so, 7-10 days per each part of the cycle. This is provided that something doesn't interrupt what is going on. There are products out there that you can buy that will speed this process up. Basically you are adding live bacteria strains to the system to process the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. We have an advanced aquarist, here in Colorado that just upgraded his tank and with partial live rock from his 120, sand and a mix of old and new water cycled in 3 days.

The key is testing your water. Ammonia and nitrite are toxic. You can get away with high nitrate but not the other two. Once you have readings of 0 on ammonia and nitrite, wait a week and test again. If the readings are still 0 then you can add live stock. Add slowly. You don't want to throw in 3 full grown Naso Tangs and expect your live rock to handle the bioload. 3 Green Chromis, on the other hand would be fine. Once the fish are added, then test your water, daily again, and monitor closely. If you have 0s then in a few weeks you can add more fish and so on.

Get a refractometer, they are cheap now, and a more accurate way of measuring. People don't take in to account, when using a hydrometer the temp of the water. If it is 1.025 at 80*, it is actually around 1.027.

[knoxtnreef]

6 months is not required to add fish. i stocked my whole tank within the first 4 months. it just depends on the person.

[mmedeiros2]

To be honest, the reason that I agreed with another post re: 3 to 6 mos. time before adding livestock is because took into account that wsz594
was new to this hobby, and if he watched paranmiters, did water changes, and studied for a good period, he would more likley have a better grip on all sorts of things prior to adding live stock. I have had fresh water all my life and when I started SW I read books, articles, and posts for three mos. prior to filling the tank. I am glad I did. I am sure all of you remember the 1st days. read - read - read

[wsz594]

Originally posted by murfman
3-6 months is way too long for a cycle. A cycle USUALLY is complete in a month or so, 7-10 days per each part of the cycle. This is provided that something doesn't interrupt what is going on. There are products out there that you can buy that will speed this process up. Basically you are adding live bacteria strains to the system to process the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. We have an advanced aquarist, here in Colorado that just upgraded his tank and with partial live rock from his 120, sand and a mix of old and new water cycled in 3 days.

The key is testing your water. Ammonia and nitrite are toxic. You can get away with high nitrate but not the other two. Once you have readings of 0 on ammonia and nitrite, wait a week and test again. If the readings are still 0 then you can add live stock. Add slowly. You don't want to throw in 3 full grown Naso Tangs and expect your live rock to handle the bioload. 3 Green Chromis, on the other hand would be fine. Once the fish are added, then test your water, daily again, and monitor closely. If you have 0s then in a few weeks you can add more fish and so on.

Get a refractometer, they are cheap now, and a more accurate way of measuring. People don't take in to account, when using a hydrometer the temp of the water. If it is 1.025 at 80*, it is actually around 1.027.

Ok I tested my water and the ammonia and nitrite read 0. This makes me even more concerned because if the tank had a cycle because of the move, it would take a while for the ammonia and nitrite to go back to zero right? Then something else could have killed the fish? I dont want to risk fish for a while, since the snails and hermit crabs survived the move, I think I will start by beefing up my cleanup crew. Is this a good idea?