Nitrite question

Rockitmakr · 06/23/2009, 07:27 AM

What happens if nitrites are reintroduced to a well established system, at a slow rate? Is it possible for a well established system to absorb it?
On a biological level please....

Percula9 · 06/23/2009, 10:35 AM

Why would you want to do this?

Rockitmakr · 06/23/2009, 11:09 AM

Cycling a sulfur denitrator & the output is showing nitrites...

ReefWreak · 06/23/2009, 11:42 AM

Your issue is that if you're installing a sulfur denitrator to lower your nitrates, and it's releasing nitrites, then be prepared for your tank to have increased nitrates, as they're the next step.

From my limited knowledge of denitrators, if you're getting anything but 0 nitrate/nitrite/ammonia water out the end of the reactor, you should slow down the flow rate, but again, I don't know much about reactors.

Rockitmakr · 06/23/2009, 12:27 PM

If that is the case... The output is showing 0 nitrates so will this be a wash until the unit cycles??

ReefWreak · 06/23/2009, 12:37 PM

Until the unit cycles you shouldn't see any development of anything, it should be just tank water, though it may go through the same type cycle of ammonia->nitrite->nitrate that a tank goes through as it becomes populated by bacteria. Maybe use some vodka to fuel it

Sorry I don't know more, hope that helps though.

wooden_reefer · 06/23/2009, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReefWreak
Until the unit cycles you shouldn't see any development of anything, it should be just tank water, though it may go through the same type cycle of ammonia->nitrite->nitrate that a tank goes through as it becomes populated by bacteria. Maybe use some vodka to fuel it

Sorry I don't know more, hope that helps though.

Many freshwater sources have some nitrate so most tank water has some. Likely denitrification takes a long time to develop.

You need the right degree of anerobic condition and a carbon source for denitrification, in general.

Denitrification bacteria use nitrate as the oxidizing agent, just as fish use oxygen.

Rockitmakr · 06/23/2009, 07:31 PM

I understand the cycle process, just not up on Sulfur denitrators is all... Weird readings that make no sense prompt me to ask these questions...

Percula9 · 06/23/2009, 10:34 PM

What I think is happening is that it is denitrifyng the nitrate but it is stalling at nitrite and not completing to the final product of free nitrogen. Remember denitrification is the nitrifying process in reverse.

Nitrate>nitrite>nitrogen

acrylic_300 · 06/23/2009, 11:10 PM

slow it down till it reads 0 nitrite 0 nitrate.

tmz · 06/23/2009, 11:54 PM

The bacteria with the sulfur source start out producing ammonia and nitrite. It's a cycle of sorts but a relatively quick one taking a few days at most befoe it's just nitrate and then another few days to zero it out in the effluent at a slow drip.

No carbon source like vodka is needed in a slufur denitrator as you probably know. I believe these bacteria are autotrophic and as such do not need an organic carbon source.

I found it easier to drip one drop per second of effluent until I had 0 ammonia,nitirte and nitrate and then sped it up, doubling each day untill I reached an effluent flow of about 5x sulfur volume. During the first week the denitrator was on line I dripped it into a bucket to avoid putting the extra nitrogen from ammonia and nitrite in the system. I also had to degas it daily.

Wether or not your system can absorb the extra nitrite without ill effect depends on your system in terms of nitrogen uptaking organisms like macroalgae, nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria ,etc. and of course current nutrient levels, other filtration etc. Have you checked nitrite and/or ammonia in your main system? Has either gone up?

Rockitmakr · 06/24/2009, 04:38 AM

Hello Tom,
Nothing has risen in my system at all. The Denitrator has already spiked with nitrates & come back down to 0. I increased the drip after both cycles and watch the nitrate spike again. The thing that is confusing is that even with 0 nitrates on the output I still see nitrites????

kgross · 06/24/2009, 08:14 PM

To answer your first question. Yes a properly operating tank can handle a nitrite introduction to the tank. In saltwater nitrite is non toxic and low levels.

As long as the nitrite levels are considerably lower than the nitrate levels going in, you will still be getting some net de-nitrification.

Kim

tmz · 06/25/2009, 12:40 AM

Hi Rockit,

Maybe as you increase the flow the bacteria(faculative autotrophs I believe) are using some of the extra O2 coming in . They will always use that first since it's easier.

Then when they turn to the NO3 for oxygen ,they may only get as far as NO2 until they proliferate more. How long has the unit been operating? I only saw nitrite during the first week.

Once mine was showing significant nitrate reduction compared to the tank water going in(about 2 weeks) I opened it up to 5x sulfur volume and settled for red /60ppm to 80ppm in and orange /,20ppm out(api test). the higher flow eliminated the need to degas and moved teh nitrogen bubbles right out with the effluent.Ultimately after 6 weeks it was all yellow(ie 0ppm).

What test kit are you using?

Rockitmakr · 06/25/2009, 04:35 AM

Thanks for the replies...
Tom,
Tried to PM you to no avail....
Can you PM me with a number I can reach you at?? Lots of things I am unsure of with this unit..

06/23/2009, 07:27 AM	#1
Rockitmakr Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Merritt Island, Florida Posts: 630	Nitrite question What happens if nitrites are reintroduced to a well established system, at a slow rate? Is it possible for a well established system to absorb it? On a biological level please.... __________________ Cheers & Happy Reefing! "You win some, lose some, and wreck some."- Dale Earnhardt. Current Tank Info: 250 Gal. Reef with Softies and SPS-LPS's. A few fishies as well.

06/23/2009, 11:09 AM	#3
Rockitmakr Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Merritt Island, Florida Posts: 630	Cycling a sulfur denitrator & the output is showing nitrites... __________________ Cheers & Happy Reefing! "You win some, lose some, and wreck some."- Dale Earnhardt. Current Tank Info: 250 Gal. Reef with Softies and SPS-LPS's. A few fishies as well.

06/23/2009, 12:27 PM	#5
Rockitmakr Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Merritt Island, Florida Posts: 630	If that is the case... The output is showing 0 nitrates so will this be a wash until the unit cycles?? __________________ Cheers & Happy Reefing! "You win some, lose some, and wreck some."- Dale Earnhardt. Current Tank Info: 250 Gal. Reef with Softies and SPS-LPS's. A few fishies as well.

06/23/2009, 07:31 PM	#8
Rockitmakr Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Merritt Island, Florida Posts: 630	I understand the cycle process, just not up on Sulfur denitrators is all... Weird readings that make no sense prompt me to ask these questions... __________________ Cheers & Happy Reefing! "You win some, lose some, and wreck some."- Dale Earnhardt. Current Tank Info: 250 Gal. Reef with Softies and SPS-LPS's. A few fishies as well.

06/23/2009, 11:54 PM	#11
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	The bacteria with the sulfur source start out producing ammonia and nitrite. It's a cycle of sorts but a relatively quick one taking a few days at most befoe it's just nitrate and then another few days to zero it out in the effluent at a slow drip. No carbon source like vodka is needed in a slufur denitrator as you probably know. I believe these bacteria are autotrophic and as such do not need an organic carbon source. I found it easier to drip one drop per second of effluent until I had 0 ammonia,nitirte and nitrate and then sped it up, doubling each day untill I reached an effluent flow of about 5x sulfur volume. During the first week the denitrator was on line I dripped it into a bucket to avoid putting the extra nitrogen from ammonia and nitrite in the system. I also had to degas it daily. Wether or not your system can absorb the extra nitrite without ill effect depends on your system in terms of nitrogen uptaking organisms like macroalgae, nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria ,etc. and of course current nutrient levels, other filtration etc. Have you checked nitrite and/or ammonia in your main system? Has either gone up? __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

06/23/2009, 10:35 AM	#2
Percula9 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Orange County CA Posts: 3,819	Why would you want to do this?

06/23/2009, 11:42 AM	#4
ReefWreak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astoria, NYC Posts: 10,159	Your issue is that if you're installing a sulfur denitrator to lower your nitrates, and it's releasing nitrites, then be prepared for your tank to have increased nitrates, as they're the next step. From my limited knowledge of denitrators, if you're getting anything but 0 nitrate/nitrite/ammonia water out the end of the reactor, you should slow down the flow rate, but again, I don't know much about reactors.

06/23/2009, 12:37 PM	#6
ReefWreak Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Astoria, NYC Posts: 10,159	Until the unit cycles you shouldn't see any development of anything, it should be just tank water, though it may go through the same type cycle of ammonia->nitrite->nitrate that a tank goes through as it becomes populated by bacteria. Maybe use some vodka to fuel it Sorry I don't know more, hope that helps though.

06/23/2009, 10:34 PM	#9
Percula9 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Orange County CA Posts: 3,819	What I think is happening is that it is denitrifyng the nitrate but it is stalling at nitrite and not completing to the final product of free nitrogen. Remember denitrification is the nitrifying process in reverse. Nitrate>nitrite>nitrogen

06/23/2009, 11:10 PM	#10
acrylic_300 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Moberly, Mo Posts: 876	slow it down till it reads 0 nitrite 0 nitrate.

06/24/2009, 04:38 AM	#12
Rockitmakr Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Merritt Island, Florida Posts: 630	Hello Tom, Nothing has risen in my system at all. The Denitrator has already spiked with nitrates & come back down to 0. I increased the drip after both cycles and watch the nitrate spike again. The thing that is confusing is that even with 0 nitrates on the output I still see nitrites???? __________________ Cheers & Happy Reefing! "You win some, lose some, and wreck some."- Dale Earnhardt. Current Tank Info: 250 Gal. Reef with Softies and SPS-LPS's. A few fishies as well.

06/24/2009, 08:14 PM	#13
kgross Premium Member Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: Nampa, ID Posts: 5,870	To answer your first question. Yes a properly operating tank can handle a nitrite introduction to the tank. In saltwater nitrite is non toxic and low levels. As long as the nitrite levels are considerably lower than the nitrate levels going in, you will still be getting some net de-nitrification. Kim __________________ Proud Member of the Idaho Marine Aquarium Society America will only be the Land of the Free as long as it is the Home of the Brave. Current Tank Info: AGA 180gallon tank, VHO/MH lighting, DSB, calcium reactor, Also a 7 Gallon Nano softy tank, and a 32 gallon cube

06/25/2009, 12:40 AM	#14
tmz ReefKeeping Mag staff Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: West Seneca NY Posts: 27,691	Hi Rockit, Maybe as you increase the flow the bacteria(faculative autotrophs I believe) are using some of the extra O2 coming in . They will always use that first since it's easier. Then when they turn to the NO3 for oxygen ,they may only get as far as NO2 until they proliferate more. How long has the unit been operating? I only saw nitrite during the first week. Once mine was showing significant nitrate reduction compared to the tank water going in(about 2 weeks) I opened it up to 5x sulfur volume and settled for red /60ppm to 80ppm in and orange /,20ppm out(api test). the higher flow eliminated the need to degas and moved teh nitrogen bubbles right out with the effluent.Ultimately after 6 weeks it was all yellow(ie 0ppm). What test kit are you using? __________________ Tom Current Tank Info: Tank of the Month , November 2011 : 600gal integrated system: 3 display tanks (120 g, 90g, 89g),several frag/grow out tanks, macroalgae refugia, cryptic zones. 40+ fish, seahorses, sps,lps,leathers, zoanthidae and non photosynthetic corals.

06/25/2009, 04:35 AM	#15
Rockitmakr Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Merritt Island, Florida Posts: 630	Thanks for the replies... Tom, Tried to PM you to no avail.... Can you PM me with a number I can reach you at?? Lots of things I am unsure of with this unit.. __________________ Cheers & Happy Reefing! "You win some, lose some, and wreck some."- Dale Earnhardt. Current Tank Info: 250 Gal. Reef with Softies and SPS-LPS's. A few fishies as well.