When safety measures are unsafe

Aquarist007 · 07/03/2009, 05:21 AM

5.30 am I am wakened by three dogs that won't stop barking. I look over at the bed clock and its not working. The power is on for the rest of the house but I smell burned electrical smell.

I have one circuit of three k4 power heads hooked to a battery backup system. I also have two of the battery backup small air pumps ----one is on----the other

Now this is really freaking me out---anyone have any input as to why this would happen?

billdogg · 07/03/2009, 05:27 AM

Dude - glad you and yours are ok!!! I have not got a clue what happened - obviously something shorted.

Aquarist007 · 07/03/2009, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by billdogg
Dude - glad you and yours are ok!!! I have not got a clue what happened - obviously something shorted.

thanks for the kind thoughts. What's really bothering me is that I have 5 of these air pumps hooked up around my system(well 4 now

)

aquaman67 · 07/03/2009, 05:45 AM

Wow....

I have those on all my tanks. Is that the only thing that burned?

That sucks but give the dogs a nice treat. Glad you caught it.

I wonder if the power went out, it kicked on and then burned or if it was the reason the power went out? I've had those things run for hours with no problems.

Aquarist007 · 07/03/2009, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aquaman67
Wow....

I have those on all my tanks. Is that the only thing that burned?

That sucks but give the dogs a nice treat. Glad you caught it.

the dogs caught it luckily---I have a silver dollar size burn hole in the floor of the cabinet which was smoldering too when I lifted up the pump.

the pump was connected to the ups backup---the surge part of it-----I am just testing the unit out now to see if it was faulty.

The other air pump was doing fine but it was hooked directly to the outlet itself.

I have only the 3 k'4 and the battery backup unit hooked to that line because it is part of one of the house circuits.

All other units are hooked up to two dedicated lines in the basement which were fine.

otrlynn · 07/03/2009, 07:01 AM

Please keep us posted, I am running one of those on my tank too, hooked up directly to the house current. Yipes! You are soooo lucky to have those dogs. Throw them all an extra Milk-bone, actually maybe a T-bone under the circumstances!

Whys · 07/03/2009, 08:09 AM

Glad you and your home are still with us Capn.

The extensive 'Jackson Pollock electrical' nature of this hobby worries me often. I have a fire alarm directly above my tank.

It may also be a good idea to replace any old surge protectors. They do wear out over time and could be related to your problem.

Time to hand out the Scooby snacks.

Aquarist007 · 07/03/2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whys
Glad you and your home are still with us Capn.

The extensive 'Jackson Pollock electrical' nature of this hobby worries me often. I have a fire alarm directly above my tank.

It may also be a good idea to replace any old surge protectors. They do wear out over time and could be related to your problem.

Time to hand out the Scooby snacks.

thanks whys

You would be familar with the aps backup systems for a computer system. I have it running on the counter top right now. It does run warm---is that normal.
I had one of the k4's hooked up to the backup part of it and the air pump hooked up to the surge part of it.

Whys · 07/03/2009, 10:20 AM

You'd think, but no, not familiar. Tho I find just about anything electrical gets a little warm.

SeaWeed89 · 07/03/2009, 10:21 AM

i would think it was the air unit itself that shorted out. looks like 2 wires sat on top of each other got hot melted the jacket on them and poof!. if they were my dogs they would be chewing on a half side of beef.
goodluck

HotHotHot · 07/03/2009, 10:22 AM

Yes ups's run warm, but you may be overloading the power bus depending on the normal current draw.

Add up the watts drawn per connected item and compare it to the specs for the ups.

BTW, ups's fail too, might be time for a new one (or replace the battery). I've gone though quite a few of the cheaper ones.

HTH

Ed

luther1200 · 07/03/2009, 01:26 PM

I would be more concernd about why the breaker in the house didn't trip. You know that if a breaker ever trips on its own it should be replaced. They are only guarenteed to work once then should be replaced. Now thats not the same thing as if a person switches 1 off to do work on the circuit. Thats OK, but if it trips automatically it should be replaced.

The reason I am saying this is becsause I doubt it was the battery part that shorted. I think it was the 110 A/C part that tells it not to run when the power is on that shorted out. But if it was in fact the battery part then the breaker should not have tripped anyway.

Aquarist007 · 07/03/2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luther1200
I would be more concernd about why the breaker in the house didn't trip. You know that if a breaker ever trips on its own it should be replaced. They are only guarenteed to work once then should be replaced. Now thats not the same thing as if a person switches 1 off to do work on the circuit. Thats OK, but if it trips automatically it should be replaced.

The reason I am saying this is becsause I doubt it was the battery part that shorted. I think it was the 110 A/C part that tells it not to run when the power is on that shorted out. But if it was in fact the battery part then the breaker should not have tripped anyway.

Luther--the breaker did trip--I believe around 3.30am----the dogs woke me up at 5.30 am. The APC1300 was on and so was one of the k4's.

Aquarist007 · 07/03/2009, 01:44 PM

I just emailed the company that makes these. I will keep you posted on the explanation they give me.

maroun.c · 07/03/2009, 01:57 PM

Glad you caught it on time Capn

luther1200 · 07/03/2009, 03:39 PM

So the breaker tripped and some devices on that circuit were still on? I don't know what could cause that, if I'm understanding correctly. Maybe the wires in the outlet are crossed between 2 circuits somehow.

Whys · 07/03/2009, 03:42 PM

luther, I'm guessing the UPS kicked on.

Aquarist007 · 07/03/2009, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whys
luther, I'm guessing the UPS kicked on.

correct Ryan---one power head was connected to one of the backup outputs and the power head was connected to one of the surge protected receptacles. I did this because over the last two weeks the power has been flickering with these storms and the flickering was enough to set off the air pump.

I've now connected the remaining good pump directly to the receptacle instead of the APC.

luther1200 · 07/03/2009, 04:00 PM

I missed that thanks.

Jack01 · 07/03/2009, 06:33 PM

'made in china'

luther1200 · 07/03/2009, 06:58 PM

So is 80% of everthing else these days.

Agu · 07/03/2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

I've now connected the remaining good pump directly to the receptacle instead of the APC.

This is just a wild guess but if I'm reading this correctly the B11 that burned up was connected to an APC ? If so you confused the heck out of it, sent varying currents to the B11 and probably had the direct power and batteries competing to see which one was in charge (that's a pun

).

The B11 is designed for power on or power off, not maybe power kinda off/kinda on. I suspect the circuitry couldn't take the in between situation.

Based on having three B11's for about 5 years and none have ever failed. Even the one that backsiphoned tank water and still works after a good cleaning.

jmo

Aquarist007 · 07/03/2009, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Agu
This is just a wild guess but if I'm reading this correctly the B11 that burned up was connected to an APC ? If so you confused the heck out of it, sent varying currents to the B11 and probably had the direct power and batteries competing to see which one was in charge (that's a pun ).

The B11 is designed for power on or power off, not maybe power kinda off/kinda on. I suspect the circuitry couldn't take the in between situation.

Based on having three B11's for about 5 years and none have ever failed. Even the one that backsiphoned tank water and still works after a good cleaning.

jmo

thanks Agu--that makes sense to me and explains why the one that was hooked directly to the gfci was working fine.

Whys · 07/03/2009, 08:03 PM

So is this to say some equipment can not be safely plugged into backup power?

Aquarist007 · 07/03/2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whys
So is this to say some equipment can not be safely plugged into backup power?

Scarry thought isn't it. I was hoping to hear back from the manufacturer today but I didn't.

07/03/2009, 05:21 AM	#1
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	When safety measures are unsafe 5.30 am I am wakened by three dogs that won't stop barking. I look over at the bed clock and its not working. The power is on for the rest of the house but I smell burned electrical smell. I have one circuit of three k4 power heads hooked to a battery backup system. I also have two of the battery backup small air pumps ----one is on----the other Now this is really freaking me out---anyone have any input as to why this would happen? __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

07/03/2009, 05:27 AM	#2
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	Dude - glad you and yours are ok!!! I have not got a clue what happened - obviously something shorted. __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer

07/03/2009, 07:01 AM	#6
otrlynn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Chester County PA Posts: 1,508	Please keep us posted, I am running one of those on my tank too, hooked up directly to the house current. Yipes! You are soooo lucky to have those dogs. Throw them all an extra Milk-bone, actually maybe a T-bone under the circumstances! __________________ Lynn 1 horse, 1 dog, 2 cats, small pond with a few koi. The fish tank is gone.

07/03/2009, 10:21 AM	#10
SeaWeed89 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Pa. Posts: 275	i would think it was the air unit itself that shorted out. looks like 2 wires sat on top of each other got hot melted the jacket on them and poof!. if they were my dogs they would be chewing on a half side of beef. goodluck __________________ Chris Current Tank Info: 20g Long, LED Lit

07/03/2009, 10:22 AM	#11
HotHotHot Obligate Coral Killer Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 643	Yes ups's run warm, but you may be overloading the power bus depending on the normal current draw. Add up the watts drawn per connected item and compare it to the specs for the ups. BTW, ups's fail too, might be time for a new one (or replace the battery). I've gone though quite a few of the cheaper ones. HTH Ed __________________ It is NOT a dry heat! Click the little red house to read my 225 thread. Current Tank Info: 200gal NWV, 34ppt, 6" DSB, 750W MH, XM 20K, 220W VHO, CL, MP40W X2, chiller, GAC, Starting NeoZeo 7/18/09

07/03/2009, 05:45 AM	#4
aquaman67 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 7,629	Wow.... I have those on all my tanks. Is that the only thing that burned? That sucks but give the dogs a nice treat. Glad you caught it. I wonder if the power went out, it kicked on and then burned or if it was the reason the power went out? I've had those things run for hours with no problems.

07/03/2009, 08:09 AM	#7
Whys Moved On Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,263	Glad you and your home are still with us Capn. The extensive 'Jackson Pollock electrical' nature of this hobby worries me often. I have a fire alarm directly above my tank. It may also be a good idea to replace any old surge protectors. They do wear out over time and could be related to your problem. Time to hand out the Scooby snacks.

07/03/2009, 10:20 AM	#9
Whys Moved On Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,263	You'd think, but no, not familiar. Tho I find just about anything electrical gets a little warm.

07/03/2009, 01:26 PM	#12
luther1200 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: NJ, shore Posts: 4,376	I would be more concernd about why the breaker in the house didn't trip. You know that if a breaker ever trips on its own it should be replaced. They are only guarenteed to work once then should be replaced. Now thats not the same thing as if a person switches 1 off to do work on the circuit. Thats OK, but if it trips automatically it should be replaced. The reason I am saying this is becsause I doubt it was the battery part that shorted. I think it was the 110 A/C part that tells it not to run when the power is on that shorted out. But if it was in fact the battery part then the breaker should not have tripped anyway. __________________ Matt, 65G reef tank Current Tank Info: 65g reef, mix of sps, lps, few softies. Hoping to upgrade within the year.

07/03/2009, 01:44 PM	#14
Aquarist007 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hamilton, Canada Posts: 28,240 Blog Entries: 1	I just emailed the company that makes these. I will keep you posted on the explanation they give me. __________________ I prefer my substrates stirred but not shaken Current Tank Info: 150gal long mixed reef, 90gal sump, 60 gal refugium with 200 lbs live rock

07/03/2009, 01:57 PM	#15
maroun.c Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Lebanon Posts: 6,111	Glad you caught it on time Capn __________________ 390 G mixed reef build Current Tank Info: 390G mixed reef

07/03/2009, 03:39 PM	#16
luther1200 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: NJ, shore Posts: 4,376	So the breaker tripped and some devices on that circuit were still on? I don't know what could cause that, if I'm understanding correctly. Maybe the wires in the outlet are crossed between 2 circuits somehow. __________________ Matt, 65G reef tank Current Tank Info: 65g reef, mix of sps, lps, few softies. Hoping to upgrade within the year.

07/03/2009, 03:42 PM	#17
Whys Moved On Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,263	luther, I'm guessing the UPS kicked on.

07/03/2009, 04:00 PM	#19
luther1200 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: NJ, shore Posts: 4,376	I missed that thanks. __________________ Matt, 65G reef tank Current Tank Info: 65g reef, mix of sps, lps, few softies. Hoping to upgrade within the year.

07/03/2009, 06:33 PM	#20
Jack01 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: west coast, canada Posts: 52	'made in china'

07/03/2009, 06:58 PM	#21
luther1200 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: NJ, shore Posts: 4,376	So is 80% of everthing else these days. __________________ Matt, 65G reef tank Current Tank Info: 65g reef, mix of sps, lps, few softies. Hoping to upgrade within the year.

07/03/2009, 08:03 PM	#24
Whys Moved On Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 3,263	So is this to say some equipment can not be safely plugged into backup power?