Tank cycled...what CU crew to add first??

[mkocan]

I'm not exactly new to the hobby, but I am getting back into it after a 4-5 year hiatus. Past tanks were all cycled with dead coral/UG filters before I switched them to LR/LS. This tank I started with a deep sand bed, Marcorocks and some supposedly live sand from Petco I believe. Tank has been up for 3+ weeks and looks good and Ammonia and Nitrite are 0.

My wife, trying to be nice, when out at the store last week got me a couple of fish and even though I told her I thought it was too early when she brought them home to surprise me. They are doing great (small blue tang and a small damsel), eating well and so on. Now I'm ready to add a CU/Invert crew to help with the tank.

In the past I had a lot of luck with stuff from IndoPacific Sea Farms, but once again I was adding stuff to a somewhat established tank and this one is still awfully new. I don't want to add snails/grazers if there is nothing for them to really graze on yet if that makes sense.

What would you folks recommend for the first clean up crew for such a tank? I was looking at IPSF live sand plus kit. Any recomendations for other sites/packages would be appreciated.

Tank is 56 gal, btw, with 380 watts of CF/MH lighting and a remora skimmer that is just last week starting to pull gunk out of the tank.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally posted by mkocan
I'm not exactly new to the hobby, but I am getting back into it after a 4-5 year hiatus. Past tanks were all cycled with dead coral/UG filters before I switched them to LR/LS. This tank I started with a deep sand bed, Marcorocks and some supposedly live sand from Petco I believe. Tank has been up for 3+ weeks and looks good and Ammonia and Nitrite are 0.

What you should really consider is whether the LR/LS had enough source of ammonia. Cycling is essentially the existence of ammonia and nitrite followed by their absence.

In just three weeks my guess is that cycle has not yet started.

And then there is the question of QT for the fish.

Interesting is that the DT can double for the QT for the one instance when the DT does not have invertebrates. If it is intended as finally a reef tank, may be you cannot use copper in DT however.

If it is intended as a reef tank, I would get all the invertebrates first and no fish for the first three months. This should allow ich to die-off first. Meanwhile you prepare for the QT for the fish, cycle the medium for QT.

I think you are likely in a bad situation.

Wrong start from several perspectives. Sorry to say.

[ludnix]

Well I'm sure you know you'll have to get rid of the blue hippo tang before too long as they grow to be enormous.

I wouldn't add any clean-up crew until you see something that needs to be cleaned. If you're getting detritus than hermits would be a good choice, if there's lots of film algae on the glass and rocks than snails would be a good option. I think it's important to add them slowly though, snails can die pretty quickly if there's no food source for them.

[wooden_reefer]

Have you ever confirmed that there was once significant concentration of ammonia (or even just nitrite), and only now there is not?

If you have not done so, do not add any more livestock and hope for the best. You may be mini-cycling or even plain cycling with valuable fish. If the LFS accepts returns, return the two fish now.

[sdc19982002]

I'd have to say that by starting with dry rock and a small amount of live sand that you havent had a cycle yet. Are you reading nitrates. Nitrates are the end product of your cycle. If you do show to have a nitrate reading i would still continue checking ammonia and nitrate for another week or 2 before adding anything.

[wooden_reefer]

Unless your live sand is really cycled before in a separate place, not only has some nitrification bacteria seeds...

Any thing live likely has some nitrification bacteria, just not enough.

[mkocan]

Originally posted by wooden_reefer
Have you ever confirmed that there was once significant concentration of ammonia (or even just nitrite), and only now there is not?

If you have not done so, do not add any more livestock and hope for the best. You may be mini-cycling or even plain cycling with valuable fish. If the LFS accepts returns, return the two fish now.

Yes, I did have some Nitrite/Ammonia after about 8-10 days when I did my first test. Like I said, I was not going to put any fish in but the wife was trying to be nice. I begrudgingly added them when she got them (a couple of days ago) and immediately tested expecting to see higher Ammonia or Ntirite but it was at 0, which surprised me. Therefore I was going to just let the fish go and see what happens (not ideal, but it seems to be working better than I thought).

As for the live sand, it was the kind with water in it that you buy at Petco. I had researched it online and got somewhat mixed but seemingly overall positive reviews, so I gave it a go. I think I used 3 bags of it mixed in with 3 bags of normal dry sand to make my sand bed to save $$.

To initiate the cycle I put in a sacrificial damsel (flame suit on) after the tank had been up and running a few days. This is my 4th tank over the last 15-20 years and that is how I started the cycle on all the previous tanks. On my last tank the 'starter damsel' lived for 6 years (until the tank leaked and I had to give everything away) but this damsel damsel disappeared completely after a week. Looked and looked and looked but never found any sign of him one morning.

The CU crew/invert package I probably need is more for detritus and critters (worms etc...) for the sand as I don't really have algae yet, which is kind of my original question which has kind of been answered. Since my past tanks were established/had algae I went with combo packages that included a lot of snails and other algae eaters, but I think a detritus/sand seeding pack might be my best bet.

[reice05]

If a tank isn't cycled how long will the fish last before they die

[wooden_reefer]

Originally posted by mkocan
Yes, I did have some Nitrite/Ammonia after about 8-10 days when I did my first test. Like I said, I was not going to put any fish in but the wife was trying to be nice. I begrudgingly added them when she got them (a couple of days ago) and immediately tested expecting to see higher Ammonia or Ntirite but it was at 0, which surprised me. Therefore I was going to just let the fish go and see what happens (not ideal, but it seems to be working better than I thought).


To initiate the cycle I put in a sacrificial damsel (flame suit on) after the tank had been up and running a few days. This is my 4th tank over the last 15-20 years and that is how I started the cycle on all the previous tanks.

You may have mini-cycling rather than plain cycling then. The waste from just one damsel is likely very marginal. You will have to add fish one at a time and there may still be some ammonia during mini-cycling.

If you are not going to remove the tang and the damsel I 'd add livestock very slowly.

The key also is that we are just talking about the DT.

This marginal approach to cycling is inadequate in that it chokes the process of QT. This method is bad if your interest is fish that really need robust cycling so that none is EVER exposed to any ammonia during QT and in DT.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally posted by reice05
If a tank isn't cycled how long will the fish last before they die

It depends on a few other factors but one is just how uncycled the tank is.

If you have plenty of live sand that has some nitrification bacteria even if uncycled, there may be persistent but still low concentration of ammonia. This is frequently what we call the new tank syndrome, or mini-cycling. That is, not acutely diabolically bad, but fish lose conditions slowly and then die slowly.

If a tank is truely very low in nitrification bacteria, death from ammonia poisoning can be just days.