Help with my 75 gallon set up

[surfnturf]

Hey everybody,

I am thinking about rejoining the saltwater aquarium hobby after a 3 year break, and I would love to hear people's thoughts on my plans for my tank.
FISH ONLY
*75 gallon main tank(48*18*20)
*50 gallon sump tank divided into 5 sections(48*12.5*20)
-First section is a drip tank with filter cloth on top and bioballs under it
-Next section would hold about 3 inches of sand, a small piece of live rock, and Chaeto
-Section 3 holds mechanical equipment such as heater and possibly skimmer
-Section 4 has 6" of fine sand, for a DSB
-Final section will have the return pump
*Main tank will have a 2.5" sand bed of sugar fine sand
*I will buy about 20 lbs of live rock and use it to seed about 100 lbs of dead rock that I currently have from my previous tank.
*I will put 2 powerheads in the main tank, so that their flow plus the return pump in the sump is enough to turn the tank water over about 15 times every hour
*Lighting will be provided by 2 48" fluorescents

REEF TANK
*After the tank has matured for a few months, I may adapt it to be able to hold corals, by adding the following things to the fish only set up
*Put a protein skimmer in the sump
*Change the lighting to a 48" NOVA Extreme Pro system
*Add another powerhead to get the tank turnover to about 20 times an hour


I'm sure there are problems with this set up, so if anyone has any suggestions or ideas please let me know. Any help I can get would be great.

p.s. sorry for the length of the post, but I wouldn't to get all the info in there

[Blown 346]

Why the need for such a big sump?

I myself would skip the deep sand bed as they are accidents waiting to happen. If anything go with a depth of 2 inches if using any sand at all. I find it easier to clean out the sump with it being bare. Why use two sections filled with sand??


I would run a skimmer right away myself. There will still be organics that will have to be removed.

The lighting you have wont be enough for corals of any kind. Invest in lighting that you can use to house any coral. Most of us end up upgrading our lighting to do this, and have to do it twice. Save yourself some money and get a light that will allow you to keep anything.


What size return pump are you getting?

[muttley000]

Many opinions on your sand bed, my opinion a DSB is a good thing, blown doesnt think so. Do some research and make an informed choice. Generally a depth between 2" and 4" is considered a no man's land, so if it were my system I would lower your display and second sections to 2", and keep the 4th section to 6" or even more. I would always use as big a sump as possible for stabilities sake, and would make your refugium section as large as possible.

[Blown 346]

The only reason I dont like DSB's is due to lack of turnover with the sand and build up of Anerobic zones in areas that dont move. I have seen alot of people loose ther entire tanks due to a crash from the DSB. The cause was those Anerobic zones exposing themselves to the water and crashing the tank.


With deep sandbeds usually over 3 inches, they form whats called anerobic zones. You will be able to see them from the front of the tank. The sand in areas will become black, You dont want to release that into the water as it is Hydrogen sulfide gas or H2S. That combines with seawater and produces sulfuric acid. You dont want that.

A shallow sand bed wont produce this, due to it being able to be turned over and not left to just sit.

They are all opinions on what different people like and you should choose what you want to do.

[surfnturf]

You both make good points, in fact this is exactly the debate I have seen in everything I read about DSB's.
To Blown_346: I figured the bigger the sump the better, since it helps with overall water quality stability. I already have both tanks from before, so might as well use them. I already have the 2 fluorescent lights from before also, so I figured they would work to start with, and then when I was going to start adding coral I would buy better ones (probably the NOVA Extreme Pro, but other suggestions are welcome). As far as the DSB, I want the anaerobic zones because that is where the denitrification takes place, but I am worried about the possible hydrogen sulfide formation.

To muttley000: The reason I wanted 2-3" in my main, is because I wanted to have a pistol shrimp/goby pair, and I heard they need sand at least as deep as their maximum body length. I figured with enough sand sifters (shrimp, goby, nass snails, maybe a wrasse) the anaerobic zones wouldn't form in my main, keeping is free of hydrogen sulfide. Do you think that would work, or should I go shallower and just let the pistol make a pile if he needs a deper burrow?

[Blown 346]

If I came off sounding like I was throwing your idea out about the size sump, I was just curious as to why. I agree the bigger the better. Usually I dont see people going large.


You dont want the anerobic zones you want the aerobic zones which will naturally form in a shallow bed that is being sifted or turned over.

Even with a deep sand bed, if you manually turn it over once in awhile (twice a month) you will decrease the risk of the Anerobic zones forming and you will keep the sand aerobic. Also by turning the sand over you will reduce the risk of the sand becoming like concrete from bacteria secreteing a glue like substance which will bond together causing the sand to become rock hard.

[surfnturf]

http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html


you may want to read that article by Ron Shimek, who I believe is the leading expert on DSB. It talks about the anaerobic zones being where the nitrate is turned into harmless nitrogen gas. Aerobic zones will stop the cycle after nitrate, which then has to be removed via water changes or some other means, whereas with a DSB, the nitrate levels can be nearly 0 without other means of removal.

[Blown 346]

I have read that article, I also read one one why not to use them. They are all opinions. I have had bad luck with DSB's and was just passing my info forward.

[stingythingy45]

50 gallon sump tank divided into 5 sections(48*12.5*20) why 5 sections?sounds like a lot of work.
-First section is a drip tank with filter cloth on top and bioballs under itbioballs aren't really used much anymore,live rock rubble might be better
-Next section would hold about 3 inches of sand, a small piece of live rock, and Chaetonot needed
-Section 3 holds mechanical equipment such as heater and possibly skimmersounds good
-Section 4 has 6" of fine sand, for a DSBnot needed
-Final section will have the return pumpi guess,you could put this in the mechanical section
*Main tank will have a 2.5" sand bed of sugar fine sandi'd go with 4-6 inches
*I will buy about 20 lbs of live rock and use it to seed about 100 lbs of dead rock that I currently have from my previous tank.sounds good
*I will put 2 powerheads in the main tank, so that their flow plus the return pump in the sump is enough to turn the tank water over about 15 times every hoursounds good
*Lighting will be provided by 2 48" fluorescentsthat will work for now


I would go with 3 sections refugium/return/mechanical filtration

[surfnturf]

Didn't mean to offend, I do want to get all the different viewpoints possible. Can you explain why you said the anaerobic sections were bad, and elaborate on your negative experiences with DSB's please? Obviously firsthand accounts are more useful than lab experiments.

[RAbdouMD]

90% of people that I know with marine tanks (which is a lot of people) have deep sand beds. "Accident waiting to happen" is hardly the phrase I would see fit to describe them. Nassarius snails help mitigate a portion of the build-up you read about earlier in Blown's post. Look into adding quite a few of those into part of your clean-up-crew list.

Anyway, the only thing I think you should change is to add that protein skimmer in the beginning...no doubt about that. Also, this has already been covered, you don't really need that many sections in your sump. I have a 72gallon and the sump that I'm getting made is about 20gallons...so, if you REALLY want a sump as big as you described, then by all means. But it's just a bit strange to hear of a sump that's almost the size of your tank o.O

[surfnturf]

stingy, does that mean you would skip the DSB also, or put it in the refugium? Also, what kind of mechanical filtration would you use, a skimmer, bioballs, or something else? And was that the order you would put it in, or was that random? I would think with those 3 sections you would want it to be mechanical filtration, refugium, then return.

[surfnturf]

Rabdou, that is good to hear about the DSB's. Do your friends all keep them in the main, or do you know people that have them in the sump or even remote DSB's? If so, does one seem more effective/easier, or are both options viable? Also, how are the nitrate levels in these tanks that you know? I thought anaerobic regions are needed for the bacteria that change nitrates into nitrogen gas, but wouldn't disturbing the sand make it harder for oxygen free ares to form?

[RAbdouMD]

The majority of my fellow hobbyists have DSB's in the main tank, with a depth of anywhere from 4-6". Mine, personally, is 4 inches.

Both options are indeed viable, but to be quite honest...you can do whatever you like with the sump as far as the Refugium section. About 25% of the people I know with sumps use any type of "Miracle" Mud or "Nutrient" Mud in their refugium section of their sump as a substrate. Some people swear by it, other people don't like the idea. I personally don't know too too much about those muds, so I won't comment on them. I may give them a shot once I get my sump, though. (After more research of course).

Nitrate levels in the tanks that I know with DSBs? Always below 10ppm, as far as what I've heard from fellow hobbyists. DSBs help out a lot with Nitrate levels, and so do Protein Skimmers (indirectly, sort of). Water changes are also going to be one of your primary weapons to battle off Nitrates. A combination of a good protein skimmer, proper filtration, good flow to make sure there are no "dead zones" in your tank where detritus can build up, a DSB in the main tank (in my personal preference), and a refugium with Chaeto (I like that idea) will all help to keep Nitrates down either directly or indirectly.

I personally don't like the advice of "If you have a deep sand bed, either stimulate it often or make sure you don't stimulate it at all." Frankly, stimulating it often pretty much defeats the purpose of having a deep sand bed...unless of course you want it there just for the looks. But, if your tank is a few months old and has been stocked significantly with fish and what-not, and one day you decide to re-arrange your rocks or mix the sand up on accident for whatever reason...you shouldn't be surprised to see the fish croak in under an hour. You just have to be careful, that's all...it's really not dangerous unless you're reckless.

[surfnturf]

Yeah that all makes sense. Sounds like maybe the safest way to go would be to put the DSB in the sump, but it might be more effective, easier, and cheaper to put it in the main. Thanks for the info, I guess I'll try to find some more readings on them.

[dots]

"There is more than one way to skin a cat" is what should be taken away from all this.

Barebottoms, Shallow Sand beds, and Deep Sand beds have all shown to be successfull in one way or another.

Rememer, this is the Newbie forum and is a nuturing enviroment, where everyone is a winner.......GOLD STARS FOR EVERYONE!!

[RAbdouMD]

Originally Posted by dots

"There is more than one way to skin a cat" is what should be taken away from all this.

Barebottoms, Shallow Sand beds, and Deep Sand beds have all shown to be successfull in one way or another.

What he said.

[surfnturf]

Dots, good point. What sand bed do you run in your sps reef?

[Blown 346]

Originally Posted by surfnturf

Didn't mean to offend, I do want to get all the different viewpoints possible. Can you explain why you said the anaerobic sections were bad, and elaborate on your negative experiences with DSB's please? Obviously firsthand accounts are more useful than lab experiments.

Anerobic zones form hydrogen sulfide gas or H2S. Once that mixes with saltwater it creates Sulfuric acid, that is what crashes tanks and kills livestock.

I had this happen to me with my 75 gallon, The tank was setup for a little over a years time when this happened. It killed everything in my tank. Like said everyone has ther opinion and DSB's,shallow beds all work. But after my happenings I dont trust the DSB's anymore.

It would help you put eggcrate down ever 2 inches so the sand isnt packed on top of eachother. make a manifold out of the sand bed to help animals etc to aerate it and move it around. Anerobic zones will form if the sand isnt being turned over. They are the black areas you see in front of tanks sometimes where the sand just stays stagnant. ThatI s why i reccomended to gently stir or move the sand your self once a month to help aviod those zones from forming.

Im not teeling you not to do it. Just giving my first hand experience. If you do use one, I would layer it like I mentioned above.

[stingythingy45]

Originally Posted by surfnturf

stingy, does that mean you would skip the DSB also, or put it in the refugium? Also, what kind of mechanical filtration would you use, a skimmer, bioballs, or something else? And was that the order you would put it in, or was that random? I would think with those 3 sections you would want it to be mechanical filtration, refugium, then return.

I have a DSB in both my display and refugium.
Just use a skimmer and maybe a filter sock to pick up particles.Clean the filter sock and change it out bi-weekly to keep nitrates from building up in there from rotting debris.Bio-balls tend to change ammonia over to nitrates rather quickly but then become" nitrate factories".
Nope that's the order I would have them:

Refugium(bio-filtration)/return section/mechanical filtration(skimmer)

I like splitting off from the overflow for the refugium.So I would split off with a T or Y over to the fug and then have both the mechanical and bio-filtration return in the middle.That's kind of the way my basement set up is.I have a recirc. skimmer inside my sump and the fug is T'ed off the overflow and dumps into the sump.

[surfnturf]

stingy, what, if anything do you do to maintain your DSB's? How long have you had them, and have they ever caused a crash?

[dots]

I ran a BB for a long time, added a remote DSB in the sump after a while, then I went to an SSB. Which added more of a nutrient sink as I found they would fade or try to brown to fast.....it was hard to get a handle on sensitive colors.

Having only SPS, I think this is a great way to have a "nutrient reserve" in the tank, holding it at a consitent level.

This may not be enough for say an LPS or Softy tank, as mine was actually too clean while BB.

I think the main issues people get with DSB is a lack of maintenance in the sand bed, where you pay attention to it as much as say....the algae on your rocks.

Combine this with is in my experience have seen DSB's in low flow tanks, that run great for years....but begin to get "old tank syndrome" when the DSB gets used up like a land fill. Because it didn't have a bunch of sand sifters, a dynamic detrivour population (that is replensished over the years due to a sort of reverse evolution as species gradually die off over time)......it was left on auto pilot and worked well.....until then or one disturbs the time bomb left burried.

But as you can see....the depth or lack of isn't really the issue....its the tank volume, livestock, the rate at which nutrients are accumulated combined with the rate they are processed, that overtime can be overlooked.

Again, personal preferance comes into play....and neither of these methods are inherently "bad" or "good" or "better"....but may be more applicable at different times.

[surfnturf]

Ok thanks for the info. I appreciate it