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10/13/2009, 09:39 PM
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#1 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 40
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First Large (150 XH) tank, plumbing advice
Hello all and thanks in advance for any advice or comments you may have. I've been a fan of Reefcentral for a long time and finally I am fulfilling my dream of having a tank I consider large, 150 XH (compared to my largest before this tank of 37 gallons).
Hopefully I've uploaded the photos correctly and you will be able to see what I am about to describe and welcome feedback on. At this time I am working on the return, the overflow and subsequent plumbing come next. I have a 55 gallon sump connected to a PanWorld NH-100PX. From the pump I have a threaded connection that opens to 1". With a 1" pipe I have connected a 1" union. From the union I go into a 1" pipe that connects to a 1" true union check valve which then connects to a 1" ball valve (I fear some weakness here). I placed all these pieces here so I could get to them from underneath the tank for convenience. From the ball valve, I have a 90 degree elbow that goes into some flex tubing into another 90 degree elbow that goes to the top of the tank. From the top of the tank I have two 90 degree elbows that allow me to take a 1" line to the bottom of the back of the tank where I have a 1" tee allowing me to take 1" line to both back corners. I then have a 90 degree elbow to point the flow up and a 45 off the 90 to allow me to direct the flow towards the middle section of the tank (I may put some lock lines here, maybe split the flow in a few directions). I have two holes in my overflow but decided to go this route to get the return flow originating from the bottom of the tank, at two locations, and this seemed the most logical route. I will most likely use the second drilled hole in the overflow as an "emergency" stand pipe. I haven't glued any of this together yet so I am open to feedback! I'm concerned that I've restricted my flow too much even though it is a PX pump. I'm wondering if vibration will be a problem. I'm concerned there is too much stress on the union/check valve/ball valve combo. I'm also concerned I've missed a lot of basics.... |
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10/13/2009, 10:41 PM
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#2 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 41
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I have a 200 gallon tank with an Iwaki 70 supplying 1300 gph through a 1" line with no problem. I do not know how this compares to your pump.
I have valves installed to allow removal of the pump and/or check valve for cleaning so in essence: sump - valve - union - pump - union - valve - check valve - ball valve. You may not have room for all that equipment but I would suggest that you should have unions and valves to allow removal of the pump/check valve unit at any time without emptying the sump. The check valve will fail at some time and I think with your current design if the valve fails when the return power is off then the entire tank will empty into the sump. (Mine failed after two years with my current tank but the sump could handle the limited flow from the tank.) Hope this helps |
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10/13/2009, 10:49 PM
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#3 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 40
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Excellent point, I'm missing a valve between sump and pump, will rectify that. With the "true union" check valve I can remove the valve assembly itself but if it were to fail I'm not sure if my sump could handle the volume, that testing will be done though. If it can't handle the volume does two check valves make sense?
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10/14/2009, 06:24 AM
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#4 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Rockford, Illinois
Posts: 6,596
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I would try and use 2 45's instead of the 90's from the pump to the tank. 90's will restrict a ton of flow.
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10/14/2009, 10:18 AM
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#5 |
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Registered Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Grove City, Ohio
Posts: 10,806
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you should set up the system so that when, not if the power fails, the sump can hold any overflow from the DT, WITHOUT THE USE OF CHECKVALVES! They will fail, and you will have a flood. proper placement of drain height, and the use of anti siphon holes in the return will do that for you. Save yourself a disaster that WILL happen, and set it up corrsctly the first time. You, your tank, your floor, and most importantly, you better half will thank you.
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I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer |
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10/14/2009, 11:08 AM
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#6 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 4,717
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+1 they will fail, 2 won't be better. If and when they do fail then pretty much you entire tank will back syphon to the bottom of you return. Most people run the return lines closest to the surface so they can drill an anti syphon holes right under the water level.
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10/14/2009, 11:57 AM
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#7 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Up North Vanderbilt, Michigan
Posts: 525
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okay, let's see
1. sump - 1 1/2" ball valve - 1 1/2" union - pump - 1 1/2" union - 1 1/2" threaded FLAPPER check - ball valve. use oversized checks, ball valves and unions. The orfice size of those items at 1" line size is approx. 3/8", flow killer. 2. Don't use more than about +/- 1000gph flow, noisy. 3. Don't plumb the returns to the bottom of the tank, MIGHT empty your tank if check doesn't hold - good possibility with a spring loaded check, not nearly as likely with a flapper check(in over 100 150gallon tank builds, not one leak back) 4. return to the top of tank with small holes drilled just below water line to act as a siphon break IF the check does fail. This also allows the sump to hole the small amount that might feed back
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Sometimes I just don't get IT ! I want IT, but she won't let me buy anything else. Well, that she knows about anyway, Bah hahahaha Current Tank Info: 280g reef w/90g refug/reef & 90g sump;210g FOWLR W/20"Pnthr Grper,10"niger,36"zebra & 24" Tiger eels. 55g clam tank w/ 9,"8",6",5"& 4" Corceas, 9" Blue &12"orange squamosas |
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10/14/2009, 07:26 PM
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#8 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 40
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Excellent points, thanks all.
I WAS returning to the bottom of the tank to get the aerated water to the bottom and to provide some flow at the bottom also. From what Rockhead, Nikon and billdogg are saying, any benefit I may get from this isn't worth the possible/likely disaster I am risking. I was using a flapper check valve but I think I'm still being convinced to not plumb back to the bottom of the tank. If I'm going to plumb back to the top of the tank I might as well use the second hole drilled in the overflow for this. Or, am I better off returning to both top/rear corners by using my current plan of coming up the middle of the tank and teeing off? I want to limit the number of powerheads I have to place in the tank. I'm assuming if I use the overflow hole and tee off near the overflow and take a line to the opposite corner I won't get any flow out of the far outlet. |
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10/14/2009, 08:53 PM
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#9 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 40
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Rockhead, if I'm going 1-1/2" on all the "accessories" then I assume i-1/2" PVC makes sense?
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10/14/2009, 08:56 PM
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#10 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Rochester
Posts: 268
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I had all the exact same questions thanks for the info guys I like Iamann am trying for a closed loop setup. Thanks for the good post Iamann
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10/14/2009, 09:51 PM
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#11 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edmonton Alberta
Posts: 4,717
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If worried about power heads, go with a vortech mp40 and be done with your water flow. You don't want all your flow through your sump so powerheads or a closed loop are your only ways.
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10/14/2009, 11:18 PM
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#12 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 40
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Pretty sure I can't do a closed loop with current hole drilling's and a $400 pump isn't in the budget currently. I have a few Seio 620s already and a few other powerheads I can use. I understand I don't want entire flow through sump but I don't want to limit my flow from the beginning but be able to restrict it as needed.
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10/15/2009, 12:05 AM
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#13 |
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Registered Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,258
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__________________
~Doug |
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10/15/2009, 12:27 AM
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Registered Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,258
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Quote:
This table was a little "easy" on it by equaling them. Table 4: Friction Losses in PVC fittings
But Im not mentioning this all just to "correct" you and be "that guy". I want people to realize that though it is still very important to determine and simplify....in my experience 80% of our energy losses in the "average sized tanks" are from the loss to the elevation head. The next is the pipe itself giving about another 10-15% of the total loss. On average, only about 5-10% comes from ALL of the fittings in the whole system. If one only has three or four fitting to begin with....didn't go all crazy with 80 branches with 100 fittings, pushing a ton of water through it at a high velocities.......these little changes we make do little overall. In fact I see us go to extreme debates of which is better "ball or gate" for instance we are looking so close we miss half the picture..... Why do I say this? This is assuming the pump and the system are properly matched to begin with......the more they are, the more effecient the pump does its job to produce that flow in the first place. What happens is we do exactly this....replace two fittings, that perhaps decrease the losses by 1%....which is great........but then because Joe Blow likes an Eheim or the MudShark 20K El Pumpo....we go and get one and slap it on....despite the fact it is only running at 60% effiency with the current plumbing design. Should we have taken the time to calculate the TDH and desired flow numbers, then compared that with the pump manufacturers Head and Flow curve......we could have bought a cheaper pump, and increased our effecieny at the same time 10% or more easily. Before you start switching out plumbing, if you think your 90% there, figure out what the best pump is before you find you need to change it....perhaps as designed the MudShark 20K El Pumpo is a perfect match as it is. if not and your set on a brand.....then add or subtract the TDH losses until they do. So......my point is....and there is one somewhere I hope.......on "smaller" tanks we can ignore things like the minor losses as they don't add or take away much....... ......but the bigger the tank gets, the more flow is involved....the more money and more we need to be concerned that the pump and the plumbing "match"......which because is complicated......and again doesn't "really" matter on the smaller tanks.....but begins to on the larger systems and the proper way to design the plumbing should be learned on the "smaller" systems. Or in other words....dont get the cart in front of the horse when optimizing the design.  man thats exhausting to try to keep coherent......was it?
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~Doug Last edited by dots; 10/15/2009 at 12:39 AM. |
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10/15/2009, 06:14 PM
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#15 |
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Registered Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 40
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After speaking with a friend who has a 350 gallon tank I think I've decided to go with flexible tubing and return through the overflow. I should get some good flow from the overflow side and will have to supplement the other side with a powerhead or two. I'll post the new design once I have it together.
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