Miracle Mud or DSB

arrowheadpuffer · 11/12/2009, 10:19 PM

Which would be better in a 40g fuge attached to a 90g reef?

jer77 · 11/12/2009, 11:42 PM

I'm not sure if you wanted any opinions or experiences with the vote, but I'll give you a little of what I have found.

I have used both methods and they both work in ways that benefit the display, which is what I think your trying to decide upon. I voted for the miracle mud for a few reasons. Sand in a sump does reduce nitrates if as a dsb. The problem is especially in a sump detritus collects and settles and becomes buried into the sand at a much faster rate than it does with any kind of mud. My sumps that incorporate a DSB collect and trap nutrients which keeps them from continuing being suspended in the water where it can be filter out with various forms of filtration. The mud is packed much tighter which helps to prevent this.

It is also been the claim of mud substrates, especially the miracle mud, that they provide valuable trace elements and minerals that sand does not. This may be somewhat true, but it has been tested and shown there really isn't much it offers that isn't provided by regular water changes or dosing of iron and other semi-useful elements occasionally.

I would suggest that the substrate in the sump is of little concern, and even not really necessary especially if there a dsb in the display. And there really doesn't need to be a dsb in the display either. I feel that eventually they tend to collect and trap nutrients and detritus. This is not all that bad for most tanks however because there should be many systems in place within your tank that are constantly absorbing or processing any released nutrients. For example, the DSB, macroalgae, GFO, LR, carbon, bacteria and even corals.

arrowheadpuffer · 11/13/2009, 02:05 AM

The fuge is a separate tank, a 40gallon tank above the sump, ran also by the main pump, the display is on the other side of the wall. Guess I wasnt clear on that... The sump is a 30 breeder tank. The corals are going to be mostly softies, maybe some easy LPS and a montipora cap.

arrowheadpuffer · 11/13/2009, 06:36 PM

bump

bertoni · 11/13/2009, 06:44 PM

Miracle Mud is overpriced for what it is, in my opinion. I'd just go with fine sand, which will do about the same job.

arredondojason · 11/13/2009, 07:03 PM

mud is for planted fuges like mangroves and hiar brushes. DSB would be a better option for you it will host more microfona and then just put some cheto in.

elegance coral · 11/13/2009, 07:12 PM

If you're going to be keeping stony corals like LPS, I'd go with a DSB. I'd vacuum part of it with a gravel vac at every water change, and make sure there is very little particulate matter in the feed water to the fuge. That's just me though.

arrowheadpuffer · 11/14/2009, 07:06 PM

Any more opinions or experiences?

jenglish · 11/14/2009, 07:31 PM

The only time I would even consider MM being worth it would be for seagrasses.... for your situation DSB is the way to go.

powers2001 · 11/14/2009, 10:10 PM

I think I remember years ago that worms (bristle?) were kept in mm along with some type of caulerpa? Does the the MM get clumped up or get packed?

cherubfish pair · 11/15/2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powers2001

I think I remember years ago that worms (bristle?) were kept in mm along with some type of caulerpa? Does the the MM get clumped up or get packed?

Yeah, I remember something about putting worms in Miracle Mud too.

powers2001 · 11/21/2009, 06:20 PM

Does Miracle Mud get packed?

reefscape15 · 11/21/2009, 08:29 PM

I'd have to say MM. It's already way more fine grained than a sand that you'd be able to find. Being this fine grained, it's constantly breaking down which helps keep ALK stable. Much softer substrate than sand would be, which would be great if you do end up doing any Mangrove Plants or other rooting type plants. It has all the same benefits of a DSB plus the above mentioned. I decided to go with the Kent brand fuge substrate and it's been nice. Never tried a DSB with just common sand, but everything that i've read led me to my choice.

dudley moray · 11/21/2009, 08:39 PM

i used costa rican sand right out the ocean works great i think what ever is cheaper usually works its all the same ....BUT bertoni is one smart guy if i listen to anyone here it would be him !!!

cherubfish pair · 11/21/2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reefscape15

I decided to go with the Kent brand fuge substrate and it's been nice.

Could you provide a link to the Kent substrate?

bertoni · 11/21/2009, 09:56 PM

No substrate will break down to help with alkalinity, and Miracle Mud is mostly silica, which doesn't contain any alkalinity, in any case.

Algae Growwer · 11/21/2009, 10:24 PM

Is the display going to have dsb or gravel ? I used mm and kent didn't really see any diff in tank or readings .The bulk of the load of the tank would be taken care of by the the dsb in the display. The elements leeching back in to the water would be minimal .If looking for just nitrate removal just use sand.And try dosing carbon to feed bed to reduce nitrate works for a lot of people.

reefscape15 · 11/21/2009, 10:27 PM

http://www.aquacave.com/marine-biose...arine-931.html

cherubfish pair · 11/22/2009, 12:58 AM

What are the differences in possible fauna inhabitants in the MM vs. DSB?

lancer99 · 11/22/2009, 01:36 AM

Jer77, that was an unusually thoughtful, non-biased reply. Certainly for RC! But I think this may be a bit misleading....

Quote:

Originally Posted by jer77

...The problem is especially in a sump detritus collects and settles and becomes buried into the sand at a much faster rate than it does with any kind of mud. My sumps that incorporate a DSB collect and trap nutrients which keeps them from continuing being suspended in the water where it can be filter out with various forms of filtration.....

Certainly, in a sump where the water flow is much less, detritus will collect, and may very well overwhelm a DSB's ability to process it. That's why I prefer in-tank DSBs.

-R

lancer99 · 11/22/2009, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cherubfish pair

What are the differences in possible fauna inhabitants in the MM vs. DSB?

I don't know!

The theory is that fine-grained sand, and the smaller particles that collect in it, support more bio-diversity, not only because of the graduated size of the particles, but also because the different particle sizes have different amounts of oxygen, and will therefore support aerobic/anoxic/anaerobic type of life.

With MM, because of the more uniform particle size, there's (theoretically) much less diversity.

I'll just say that my DSBs are going strong after two years, with nitrate and phosphates near zero.

-R

View Poll Results: Miracle Mud -OR- DSB
Miracle Mud	17	53.13%
DSB	15	46.88%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

11/12/2009, 10:19 PM	#1
arrowheadpuffer Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CA Posts: 396	Miracle Mud or DSB Which would be better in a 40g fuge attached to a 90g reef?

11/12/2009, 11:42 PM	#2
jer77 Phish Lover Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 2,642	I'm not sure if you wanted any opinions or experiences with the vote, but I'll give you a little of what I have found. I have used both methods and they both work in ways that benefit the display, which is what I think your trying to decide upon. I voted for the miracle mud for a few reasons. Sand in a sump does reduce nitrates if as a dsb. The problem is especially in a sump detritus collects and settles and becomes buried into the sand at a much faster rate than it does with any kind of mud. My sumps that incorporate a DSB collect and trap nutrients which keeps them from continuing being suspended in the water where it can be filter out with various forms of filtration. The mud is packed much tighter which helps to prevent this. It is also been the claim of mud substrates, especially the miracle mud, that they provide valuable trace elements and minerals that sand does not. This may be somewhat true, but it has been tested and shown there really isn't much it offers that isn't provided by regular water changes or dosing of iron and other semi-useful elements occasionally. I would suggest that the substrate in the sump is of little concern, and even not really necessary especially if there a dsb in the display. And there really doesn't need to be a dsb in the display either. I feel that eventually they tend to collect and trap nutrients and detritus. This is not all that bad for most tanks however because there should be many systems in place within your tank that are constantly absorbing or processing any released nutrients. For example, the DSB, macroalgae, GFO, LR, carbon, bacteria and even corals. __________________ - Jonny -, 120g 5 Year Old Reef w/ SPS, BTA, Zoos & some Softies. 40g Frag Tank. 40g Sump. Super Reef Octopus XP 3000 External Cone Skimmer. 250W Radiums. TaoTronics LED. PanWorld 200PS w/SQWD

11/13/2009, 06:44 PM	#5
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Miracle Mud is overpriced for what it is, in my opinion. I'd just go with fine sand, which will do about the same job. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

11/14/2009, 07:31 PM	#9
jenglish Marquis de Carabas Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,523	The only time I would even consider MM being worth it would be for seagrasses.... for your situation DSB is the way to go. __________________ Jeremy Brown liquor never hurt anybody “Je n'ai pas besoin de cette hypothèse" Pierre-Simon Laplace I should want to cook him a simple meal, but I shouldn't want to cut into him, to tear the flesh, to wear the flesh, to be born unto new worlds where his flesh becomes my key. Current Tank Info: broken and dry

11/13/2009, 02:05 AM	#3
arrowheadpuffer Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CA Posts: 396	The fuge is a *separate* tank, a 40gallon tank above the sump, ran also by the main pump, the display is on the other side of the wall. Guess I wasnt clear on that... The sump is a 30 breeder tank. The corals are going to be mostly softies, maybe some easy LPS and a montipora cap.

11/13/2009, 06:36 PM	#4
arrowheadpuffer Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CA Posts: 396	bump

11/13/2009, 07:03 PM	#6
arredondojason Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 988	mud is for planted fuges like mangroves and hiar brushes. DSB would be a better option for you it will host more microfona and then just put some cheto in.

11/13/2009, 07:12 PM	#7
elegance coral They call me EC Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: central Florida Posts: 6,208	If you're going to be keeping stony corals like LPS, I'd go with a DSB. I'd vacuum part of it with a gravel vac at every water change, and make sure there is very little particulate matter in the feed water to the fuge. That's just me though.

11/14/2009, 07:06 PM	#8
arrowheadpuffer Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CA Posts: 396	Any more opinions or experiences?

11/14/2009, 10:10 PM	#10
powers2001 Moved On Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 224	I think I remember years ago that worms (bristle?) were kept in mm along with some type of caulerpa? Does the the MM get clumped up or get packed?

11/21/2009, 06:20 PM	#12
powers2001 Moved On Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 224	Does Miracle Mud get packed?

11/21/2009, 08:29 PM	#13
reefscape15 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Elmira Heights, NY Posts: 2,812	I'd have to say MM. It's already way more fine grained than a sand that you'd be able to find. Being this fine grained, it's constantly breaking down which helps keep ALK stable. Much softer substrate than sand would be, which would be great if you do end up doing any Mangrove Plants or other rooting type plants. It has all the same benefits of a DSB plus the above mentioned. I decided to go with the Kent brand fuge substrate and it's been nice. Never tried a DSB with just common sand, but everything that i've read led me to my choice. __________________ A new beginning........... JIM Current Tank Info: 5g standard softie/zoa tank, just starting a 20H

11/21/2009, 08:39 PM	#14
dudley moray sisternofuselessknowledge Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: orillia ontario Posts: 795	i used costa rican sand right out the ocean works great i think what ever is cheaper usually works its all the same ....BUT bertoni is one smart guy if i listen to anyone here it would be him !!! __________________ We urge hobbyists to develop a good 'BS' detector that will allow you to question information presented to you without any experimental evidence to support it. chris Current Tank Info: 90 gal south pacific biotope 40 gal sump/fuge ,65 gal rebuilding

11/21/2009, 09:56 PM	#16
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	No substrate will break down to help with alkalinity, and Miracle Mud is mostly silica, which doesn't contain any alkalinity, in any case. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

11/21/2009, 10:24 PM	#17
Algae Growwer Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: illinois Posts: 84	Is the display going to have dsb or gravel ? I used mm and kent didn't really see any diff in tank or readings .The bulk of the load of the tank would be taken care of by the the dsb in the display. The elements leeching back in to the water would be minimal .If looking for just nitrate removal just use sand.And try dosing carbon to feed bed to reduce nitrate works for a lot of people.

11/21/2009, 10:27 PM	#18
reefscape15 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Elmira Heights, NY Posts: 2,812	http://www.aquacave.com/marine-biose...arine-931.html __________________ A new beginning........... JIM Current Tank Info: 5g standard softie/zoa tank, just starting a 20H

11/22/2009, 12:58 AM	#19
cherubfish pair Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Libby, Montana Posts: 7,061 Blog Entries: 1	What are the differences in possible fauna inhabitants in the MM vs. DSB? __________________ pairo chero Thanks for looking at my build thread and subscribe to it if you already haven't yet! Current Tank Info: thirty rimless