Watanabe Angel Not Eating

MechEng99 · 11/13/2009, 06:33 PM

Hello everyone!

I recently purchased a mated pair of Watanabe Angels. I specially ordered them from my reputable LFS, and they stayed there in QT for about 2 weeks before I picked them up. I then continued QT in a 55g tank at home for 2 weeks, but it wasn't big enough for them to QT any longer (the female was getting really territorial.) They are now in my 150g tank with 50g sump.

They're both young adults...about 5" long. The female is FAT and extremely active. The male is extremely skinny...and getting worse. He is still always out in the tank swimming around...but is no where near as active. Neither have signs of swim bladder problems (as they often do.)

The male refuses to eat anything I've tried. I've tried chopped & pureed oysters, shrimp, scallops, red/green/brown algaes, Cyclopeeze, Spectrum pellets, garlic, fresh Graciliaria, and pretty much everything else I can think of. He gets really excited when there's food in the tank, and will swim toward it. At the last second, he'll just dodge the food.

I'm stumped. He doesn't seem stressed (doesn't hide, doesn't flash his fins, etc.) He also doesn't have sign of disease (although his tail looks slightly beat up.)

Any ideas? I got desperate and even tried mushed peas (heard a rumor it was supposed to help if they had gastric problems.) I'm stumped.

Only other inhabitants in the tank are 5 baby chromis and some snails/crabs.

Thanks in advance!

flameangel88 · 11/13/2009, 06:52 PM

I've no luck in buying male Genicanthus. I've tried Watanabe, Bellus and Swallowtail and the end results were all the same. I've been told they are poor shipper and the fact that males are usually larger and more difficult to adapt to aquarium life. However, the 2 females (2.5") I got back in Nov 2007 are both doing fine and one of them transformed into a male last November. The male is a little over 5.5" now.

Was the pair eating in the lfs? If the male was eating then I would say feed the stuff he was eating at the store. Did you or the store treat for internal parasites? If not, I would definitely do it. Before you pick up any fish the next time at the lfs make sure they are eating first. I usually buy online so I don't have that luxury. Hopefully your male will come around.

MechEng99 · 11/13/2009, 07:22 PM

The LFS said both were eating...saw the female eat (but the male was hiding while I was in the store.) They said both were eating flake (and other good food...but would accept flake.) The female eats EVERYTHING edible. The male...nothing.

The male is a bit smaller than the female.

As far as I know, the store did not treat for internal parasites, nor did I. In fact, I'm embarrassed to admit I don't know how to treat for internal parasites on reef fish.

I did do a freshwater dip in addition to the QT (did not find anything.)

Thanks for the response! Glad to know the females do change into males in captivity!

flameangel88 · 11/13/2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MechEng99

The LFS said both were eating...saw the female eat (but the male was hiding while I was in the store.) They said both were eating flake (and other good food...but would accept flake.) The female eats EVERYTHING edible. The male...nothing.

The male is a bit smaller than the female.

As far as I know, the store did not treat for internal parasites, nor did I. In fact, I'm embarrassed to admit I don't know how to treat for internal parasites on reef fish.

I did do a freshwater dip in addition to the QT (did not find anything.)

Thanks for the response! Glad to know the females do change into males in captivity!

That's not a good sign when a fish is in hiding at the lfs because stores usually don't put many rocks in their tanks therefore the fish gets used to traffic in front of the tank. They go in hiding in our tanks because we provide so many hiding places for them. I doubt this is a mated pair because with genicanthus true pairs that I've seen the males are substantially bigger.

It may be late to treat for internal parasites with Prazipro on the male given his weak condition.

Here's a good thread to read on Genicanthus: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...of+genicanthus

I posted pictures of the female to male transition starting on page 7.

steelersfan · 11/13/2009, 07:38 PM

I am no expert, but these fish are very prone to flukes. It happened to my pair of Watanabei. You might consider using Prazipro.

flameangel88 · 11/13/2009, 07:48 PM

Here's a good thread on flukes: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ghlight=flukes

jmaneyapanda · 11/13/2009, 09:02 PM

FWIW, I wouldnt call 5" Genicanthids "young adults". Thats a good size for mature adults. I would suggest putting him back into QT and flooding him with food items. No competition, and clean water. I would suspect perehaps some intimidation by the "female", who actually may be more "male" than thought.

Macimage · 11/13/2009, 10:04 PM

I also would treat with PraziPro and put him back into QT by himself, as they may not be a mated pair.

Good luck!
Joyce

Ev's Reef · 11/13/2009, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmaneyapanda

FWIW, I wouldnt call 5" Genicanthids "young adults". Thats a good size for mature adults. I would suggest putting him back into QT and flooding him with food items. No competition, and clean water. I would suspect perehaps some intimidation by the "female", who actually may be more "male" than thought.

This sounds like a classic case of bullying.

MechEng99 · 11/14/2009, 01:01 PM

Thanks everyone for the info! Funny how it works...couldn't find much info on this species until AFTER I bought. Ugh.

Flameangel - I especially appreciate your thread on the Watanabe's changing over. I had no idea the males would change back over to females (or else I wouldn't have paid a fortune for him.) I took a look at him and compared him to your "new" male. My male has lost the majority of the black lines from his belly. The female doesn't seem to have visible signs of becoming a male.

I think you guys were right...I don't think this was a true mated pair. The male is just much smaller, and his colors aren't as prominant as the true males.

I'm going to put him back in QT...and load the tank up on food. (And cross my fingers.) I'm not going to risk treating him for anything yet...I don't think he'd make it.

I'm just really confused why he'll swim directly at some food, then just swim right on past it. Oh well.

I'll be out of town for the next week, so I'll update the thread when I get back. Thanks again everyone!

MechEng99 · 11/21/2009, 05:11 PM

Ok, here are the pics:

Male on 24 October 2009:

Male on 21 November 2009:

Female on 24 October 2009: (Sorry for the bad pic)

Female on 21 November 2009:

flameangel88 · 11/21/2009, 05:29 PM

It's frustrating to buy a pair and the male reverts back to female. Is the male eating? At this point I would be more concern on getting the male eating and healthy. His color around the head dosen't look good but this could very well be the picture/light angle. If you keep him healthy hopefully one will change in the near future.

One last thought--just prior to my female Watanabe changing to male she ate like crazy. If your female is eating more and she's bigger than the male there's a chance she's changing.

Either way good luck with both!

MechEng99 · 11/21/2009, 05:32 PM

No, he's still not eating. My husband wasn't able to catch him to put him back in QT while I was on a business trip, so he'll be going back into QT tonight (even if I have to pull out the snorkel/mask!)

The female is eating pretty much constantly. She'll dart for anything we put into the tank. I did just notice her bottom half is lightening up. Did yours do that before she changed?

Who knows, I might end up with a mated pair after all...just with both of them switched! LOL.

flameangel88 · 11/21/2009, 05:43 PM

not really after looking back to those pictures and they were taken on the week I noticed the change. The first sign I noticed was the streamers getting longer.

Bcamp · 11/22/2009, 09:45 AM

Those are awesome pics Flameangel, Still waiting on mine to change. How crowded is the tank? What lighting?

jmaneyapanda · 11/22/2009, 10:37 AM

A theory of mine, is that these fish do change from female to male, but then do NOT change sex back, although their gross appearance may indicate so. As far as I know, no one has ever studied whther the actual sex reverts back from male to female. But I suspect it is a situation very akin to birds. Males will wear the flambuoyant colors if there are femnales to impress and to compete with other males. However, if the previosu two conditions arent applicable, then why wear the colors? It only draws more attention from predators and aggression from other males. So I belive these males go into an "ecclipse" coloration of sorts, where they still maintain the male glandular sexual organs, yet do now wear the colors, as they are unnecessary. In such a case, a "female" like yours (in my example, a male in hiding), and a male like yours will battle. This might cause the male coloration to dwindle (as yours is showing) and receive aggression from the male in hiding. Yet, with no females to impress, the male in hiding still does not need to show the bright colors.

This is, of course, not willful decision, but hormonal control, a dictated through million of years of evolution. And, of course, just a speculative theory of mine. I just find it hard to belive that these fish can change glandular sex from male to female like flipping a switch. I find that alteration of groos phenotype far more plausible. JMHO.

MechEng99 · 11/22/2009, 12:48 PM

Hm...really interesting theory jmaneyapanda! If the male survives, I think it would be interesting to see what would happen if I put a much smaller female with him.

jda · 11/22/2009, 04:19 PM

Did you try PE mysis? Not hikari, or other kinds, but PE? My gennnys love it and all ate it the first day. I don't QT mine though - the slight risk of disease is not worth losing/stressing the fish for me - Gennys are on my list of non-QT fish.

I have two solitary males that have not changed to female, even in the absence of a female. These are mature males, with the elongated body shape, enlarged throat (look at the throat on the fish of the second pic of flameangel), long streamers, etc. I have had immature males change back quite quickly.

flameangel88 · 11/22/2009, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bcamp

Those are awesome pics Flameangel, Still waiting on mine to change. How crowded is the tank? What lighting?

Only T5s in the tank with the genicanthus. The tank is pretty crowded right now while waiting for the upgrade even when running 7 tanks in the house. I have mostly deep water fish in this one so I keep this one bet 69-71F with actinics mostly. I hope to get to chance to document one of the 2 female Bellus change in the future.

jmaneyapanda · 11/23/2009, 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

Did you try PE mysis? Not hikari, or other kinds, but PE? My gennnys love it and all ate it the first day. I don't QT mine though - the slight risk of disease is not worth losing/stressing the fish for me - Gennys are on my list of non-QT fish.

I have two solitary males that have not changed to female, even in the absence of a female. These are mature males, with the elongated body shape, enlarged throat (look at the throat on the fish of the second pic of flameangel), long streamers, etc. I have had immature males change back quite quickly.

Really?! This is a species I consider an ABSOLUTE for QT, especially with their propensity for intestinal worms. QT isnt an automatic "stress out". I dont know why people think it is. No mcompetition, pristine water, ample food, appropriate hiding spots- it can be ideal. It *SHOULD* be ideal. As a personal suggest, I would urge you to reconsider. Take it with a grain of salt.

jda · 11/23/2009, 04:08 PM

I understand the pros and cons and choose to introduce them directly into the display. I have had 21 gennys and my only losses are a male watanabei that jumped after 4 years (broke my heart) and a male caudo that got crushed in a rockslide. I have never lost one due to introduction/etc. I would not suggest that anybody else do this. They all ate mysis on the first day and have never looked back. I do feed thera-A which allegedly helps with parasites, if they had any, so maybe that helps to mask my stupidity... Perhaps it also helps that I have known the chain of custody from known net collectors that know how to decompress correctly and otherwise treat their fish. However, if I did suspect a parasite issue, I would have no problems parzi'ing my display since my SPS and clams don't seem to care.

I have a 75G QT with lots of rock, good quality water, etc. and I make this choice from years of chatting with the locals and reading experiences of people online - this is not due to a lack of means or knowledge. My other do-not-QT fish mostly include fish that need microfauna/pods all the time like copperbands, leopard wrasses, mandarins, etc... and some reefsafe triggers.

Sorry for the hijack - is the male eating yet?

jmaneyapanda · 11/23/2009, 06:07 PM

jda_

I appreciate your expertise, and I am not insinuating any lack of knowledge or skill. However, I really think this is something to reconsider. See here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...692183&page=85. Here is a very experienced aquarist with a state of the art system. Yet, he lost near every fish to velvet in days. He felt he was doing a "better" thing for the fish by not QTing them too. However, he ended up killing everything. Its just not worth it.

Hijack over.

11/13/2009, 06:33 PM	#1
MechEng99 aka Reef'd Up Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,311	Watanabe Angel Not Eating Hello everyone! I recently purchased a mated pair of Watanabe Angels. I specially ordered them from my reputable LFS, and they stayed there in QT for about 2 weeks before I picked them up. I then continued QT in a 55g tank at home for 2 weeks, but it wasn't big enough for them to QT any longer (the female was getting really territorial.) They are now in my 150g tank with 50g sump. They're both young adults...about 5" long. The female is FAT and extremely active. The male is extremely skinny...and getting worse. He is still always out in the tank swimming around...but is no where near as active. Neither have signs of swim bladder problems (as they often do.) The male refuses to eat anything I've tried. I've tried chopped & pureed oysters, shrimp, scallops, red/green/brown algaes, Cyclopeeze, Spectrum pellets, garlic, fresh Graciliaria, and pretty much everything else I can think of. He gets really excited when there's food in the tank, and will swim toward it. At the last second, he'll just dodge the food. I'm stumped. He doesn't seem stressed (doesn't hide, doesn't flash his fins, etc.) He also doesn't have sign of disease (although his tail looks slightly beat up.) Any ideas? I got desperate and even tried mushed peas (heard a rumor it was supposed to help if they had gastric problems.) I'm stumped. Only other inhabitants in the tank are 5 baby chromis and some snails/crabs. Thanks in advance! __________________ See my homepage for more information on rescuing coral! PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Systems: 200g SPS-dominant, 75g Rescue, 30g QT, & 10g QT

11/13/2009, 07:22 PM	#3
MechEng99 aka Reef'd Up Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,311	The LFS said both were eating...saw the female eat (but the male was hiding while I was in the store.) They said both were eating flake (and other good food...but would accept flake.) The female eats EVERYTHING edible. The male...nothing. The male is a bit smaller than the female. As far as I know, the store did not treat for internal parasites, nor did I. In fact, I'm embarrassed to admit I don't know how to treat for internal parasites on reef fish. I did do a freshwater dip in addition to the QT (did not find anything.) Thanks for the response! Glad to know the females do change into males in captivity! __________________ See my homepage for more information on rescuing coral! PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Systems: 200g SPS-dominant, 75g Rescue, 30g QT, & 10g QT

11/13/2009, 07:38 PM	#5
steelersfan Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: San Juan Capistrano, Ca Posts: 796	I am no expert, but these fish are very prone to flukes. It happened to my pair of Watanabei. You might consider using Prazipro. __________________ Reza Current Tank Info: Elos 160XL with Custom Steel Stand

11/14/2009, 01:01 PM	#10
MechEng99 aka Reef'd Up Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,311	Thanks everyone for the info! Funny how it works...couldn't find much info on this species until AFTER I bought. Ugh. Flameangel - I especially appreciate your thread on the Watanabe's changing over. I had no idea the males would change back over to females (or else I wouldn't have paid a fortune for him.) I took a look at him and compared him to your "new" male. My male has lost the majority of the black lines from his belly. The female doesn't seem to have visible signs of becoming a male. I think you guys were right...I don't think this was a true mated pair. The male is just much smaller, and his colors aren't as prominant as the true males. I'm going to put him back in QT...and load the tank up on food. (And cross my fingers.) I'm not going to risk treating him for anything yet...I don't think he'd make it. I'm just really confused why he'll swim directly at some food, then just swim right on past it. Oh well. I'll be out of town for the next week, so I'll update the thread when I get back. Thanks again everyone! __________________ See my homepage for more information on rescuing coral! PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Systems: 200g SPS-dominant, 75g Rescue, 30g QT, & 10g QT

11/21/2009, 05:11 PM	#11
MechEng99 aka Reef'd Up Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,311	Ok, here are the pics: Male on 24 October 2009: Male on 21 November 2009: Female on 24 October 2009: (Sorry for the bad pic) Female on 21 November 2009: __________________ See my homepage for more information on rescuing coral! PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Systems: 200g SPS-dominant, 75g Rescue, 30g QT, & 10g QT

11/13/2009, 06:52 PM	#2
flameangel88 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NJ Posts: 3,998	I've no luck in buying male Genicanthus. I've tried Watanabe, Bellus and Swallowtail and the end results were all the same. I've been told they are poor shipper and the fact that males are usually larger and more difficult to adapt to aquarium life. However, the 2 females (2.5") I got back in Nov 2007 are both doing fine and one of them transformed into a male last November. The male is a little over 5.5" now. Was the pair eating in the lfs? If the male was eating then I would say feed the stuff he was eating at the store. Did you or the store treat for internal parasites? If not, I would definitely do it. Before you pick up any fish the next time at the lfs make sure they are eating first. I usually buy online so I don't have that luxury. Hopefully your male will come around.

11/13/2009, 07:48 PM	#6
flameangel88 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NJ Posts: 3,998	Here's a good thread on flukes: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...ghlight=flukes

11/13/2009, 09:02 PM	#7
jmaneyapanda Commencing hatred Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,784	FWIW, I wouldnt call 5" Genicanthids "young adults". Thats a good size for mature adults. I would suggest putting him back into QT and flooding him with food items. No competition, and clean water. I would suspect perehaps some intimidation by the "female", who actually may be more "male" than thought.

11/13/2009, 10:04 PM	#8
Macimage Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Quartz Hill Posts: 4,078	I also would treat with PraziPro and put him back into QT by himself, as they may not be a mated pair. Good luck! Joyce

11/21/2009, 05:29 PM	#12
flameangel88 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NJ Posts: 3,998	It's frustrating to buy a pair and the male reverts back to female. Is the male eating? At this point I would be more concern on getting the male eating and healthy. His color around the head dosen't look good but this could very well be the picture/light angle. If you keep him healthy hopefully one will change in the near future. One last thought--just prior to my female Watanabe changing to male she ate like crazy. If your female is eating more and she's bigger than the male there's a chance she's changing. Either way good luck with both!

11/21/2009, 05:32 PM	#13
MechEng99 aka Reef'd Up Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,311	No, he's still not eating. My husband wasn't able to catch him to put him back in QT while I was on a business trip, so he'll be going back into QT tonight (even if I have to pull out the snorkel/mask!) The female is eating pretty much constantly. She'll dart for anything we put into the tank. I did just notice her bottom half is lightening up. Did yours do that before she changed? Who knows, I might end up with a mated pair after all...just with both of them switched! LOL. __________________ See my homepage for more information on rescuing coral! PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Systems: 200g SPS-dominant, 75g Rescue, 30g QT, & 10g QT

11/21/2009, 05:43 PM	#14
flameangel88 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: NJ Posts: 3,998	not really after looking back to those pictures and they were taken on the week I noticed the change. The first sign I noticed was the streamers getting longer.

11/22/2009, 09:45 AM	#15
Bcamp Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: I think I'm here Posts: 97	Those are awesome pics Flameangel, Still waiting on mine to change. How crowded is the tank? What lighting?

11/22/2009, 10:37 AM	#16
jmaneyapanda Commencing hatred Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,784	A theory of mine, is that these fish do change from female to male, but then do NOT change sex back, although their gross appearance may indicate so. As far as I know, no one has ever studied whther the actual sex reverts back from male to female. But I suspect it is a situation very akin to birds. Males will wear the flambuoyant colors if there are femnales to impress and to compete with other males. However, if the previosu two conditions arent applicable, then why wear the colors? It only draws more attention from predators and aggression from other males. So I belive these males go into an "ecclipse" coloration of sorts, where they still maintain the male glandular sexual organs, yet do now wear the colors, as they are unnecessary. In such a case, a "female" like yours (in my example, a male in hiding), and a male like yours will battle. This might cause the male coloration to dwindle (as yours is showing) and receive aggression from the male in hiding. Yet, with no females to impress, the male in hiding still does not need to show the bright colors. This is, of course, not willful decision, but hormonal control, a dictated through million of years of evolution. And, of course, just a speculative theory of mine. I just find it hard to belive that these fish can change glandular sex from male to female like flipping a switch. I find that alteration of groos phenotype far more plausible. JMHO.

11/22/2009, 12:48 PM	#17
MechEng99 aka Reef'd Up Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,311	Hm...really interesting theory jmaneyapanda! If the male survives, I think it would be interesting to see what would happen if I put a much smaller female with him. __________________ See my homepage for more information on rescuing coral! PADI Advanced Open Water Diver Systems: 200g SPS-dominant, 75g Rescue, 30g QT, & 10g QT

11/22/2009, 04:19 PM	#18
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Did you try PE mysis? Not hikari, or other kinds, but PE? My gennnys love it and all ate it the first day. I don't QT mine though - the slight risk of disease is not worth losing/stressing the fish for me - Gennys are on my list of non-QT fish. I have two solitary males that have not changed to female, even in the absence of a female. These are mature males, with the elongated body shape, enlarged throat (look at the throat on the fish of the second pic of flameangel), long streamers, etc. I have had immature males change back quite quickly.

11/23/2009, 04:08 PM	#21
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	I understand the pros and cons and choose to introduce them directly into the display. I have had 21 gennys and my only losses are a male watanabei that jumped after 4 years (broke my heart) and a male caudo that got crushed in a rockslide. I have never lost one due to introduction/etc. I would not suggest that anybody else do this. They all ate mysis on the first day and have never looked back. I do feed thera-A which allegedly helps with parasites, if they had any, so maybe that helps to mask my stupidity... Perhaps it also helps that I have known the chain of custody from known net collectors that know how to decompress correctly and otherwise treat their fish. However, if I did suspect a parasite issue, I would have no problems parzi'ing my display since my SPS and clams don't seem to care. I have a 75G QT with lots of rock, good quality water, etc. and I make this choice from years of chatting with the locals and reading experiences of people online - this is not due to a lack of means or knowledge. My other do-not-QT fish mostly include fish that need microfauna/pods all the time like copperbands, leopard wrasses, mandarins, etc... and some reefsafe triggers. Sorry for the hijack - is the male eating yet?

11/23/2009, 06:07 PM	#22
jmaneyapanda Commencing hatred Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,784	jda_ I appreciate your expertise, and I am not insinuating any lack of knowledge or skill. However, I really think this is something to reconsider. See here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...692183&page=85. Here is a very experienced aquarist with a state of the art system. Yet, he lost near every fish to velvet in days. He felt he was doing a "better" thing for the fish by not QTing them too. However, he ended up killing everything. Its just not worth it. Hijack over.