Which would be better in a refugium with chaeto? Liverock rubble or coral sand?

powers2001 · 11/14/2009, 10:27 PM

This is for nutrient export, growing pods, an emerald crab or two, and maybe some bristle worms to help eat detritus.

I read that pods like rock rubble to lay their eggs on. And of course the substrate is also for providing minerals and buffering water as it dissolves.

Any and all opinions and experiences are welcome. The tank is for fish and mixed reef with a heavy bioload.

bertoni · 11/14/2009, 10:35 PM

The substrate won't provide any minerals or buffering, but it can be a place for animals to grow. If it's a refugium, I'd leave out the crabs, since they'll prey on the animals you're trying to grow. I didn't use any substrate in my refugium, to make it easy to maintain, but fine sand is okay. A bit of live rock might help with filtration. I don't think the substrate makes much difference unless you want to grow plants or algae that require one.

sps1206 · 11/14/2009, 10:42 PM

If you can't decide put the rubble and sand in there. Thats how a lot of refugiums are anyways..

cherubfish pair · 11/15/2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

I read that pods like rock rubble to lay their eggs on. ~powers2001

I would like to know if this is true too.

offroadodge · 11/15/2009, 05:42 PM

i hv chaeto, mangroves, live rock, live sand, and agrogate sand on the bottom.

bertoni · 11/15/2009, 07:09 PM

Some species of animal might prefer a live rock habitat, but it'd be hard to know what exactly is in our systems. I grew a lot of small animals in Chaetomorpha with no troubles, though.

96b.boy · 11/15/2009, 07:23 PM

i'm running both in mine

cloak · 11/15/2009, 07:39 PM

Try not to have to rely on a refuge? Algae growth is good, don't get me wrong, but it's just something that really shouldn't be in play. Sort of a bandaid IMO. Especially when your using RO/DI. Something's off.

Korrine · 11/15/2009, 08:50 PM

For nutrient export think about a DSB if your fuge is deep enough. And of course the cheato.

Chris27 · 11/15/2009, 09:01 PM

I have a DSB, Live Rock/Rubble, and chaeto in my fuge...seems to work well enough.

powers2001 · 11/21/2009, 06:30 PM

Now I'm thinking of two fuges. One with just chaeto and one with MM. I'd also like to raise sexy shrimp to feed some dwarf morays.

cherubfish pair · 11/21/2009, 09:37 PM

Is Southdown play sand that once was so popular, non-calcareous?

Frick-n-Frags · 11/21/2009, 09:54 PM

fwiw, i tried the rubble rock in my cheato tub. it became a serious maintenance issue. nothing collects crap like rubble and coarse sand for me.

SO, considering that you say this is for nutrient export, IMO, skip the nutrient sink.

reefscape15 · 11/21/2009, 10:31 PM

both if you can. Every system should have an area with some detritus in it. It's un-natural to have water with no wastes in it. Just make sure it doesn't build all too much.

cherubfish pair · 11/22/2009, 01:05 AM

Sand or mud would be better for burrowing animals and lr rubble would be good for sessile animals like sponges.

I guess I just answered a lot of my own question.

cherubfish pair · 01/26/2010, 05:59 PM

The debate is settled. I'm using live sand.

arrowheadpuffer · 01/26/2010, 11:25 PM

I stacked some strawberry baskets zip tied together full of live rock rubble in my 55g DSB fuge. With in a short time the stack was covered in tons of pods, its like a pod condo! The baskets help keep the rubble together and from sinking in the sand.

powers2001 · 01/29/2010, 05:38 PM

What depth of substrate is needed for red mangroves?

Salamander · 01/29/2010, 05:54 PM

Like Bertoni, I have no substrate in my fuge. Makes maintenance a whole lot easier.

bertoni · 01/31/2010, 07:53 PM

I'm not sure, but I'd guess at least a few inches. They are plants, and need some space for roots. I don't know of a good site for instructions.

reefscape15 · 02/01/2010, 09:38 AM

I'd shoot for at least 4" if you want to try Mangroves. You CAN keep them in less, if you let the root structure start growing out and then attach them to a rock or something. It takes some time, but you can achieve the same look as you see in many Bonsai Tree displays, where a portion of the root structure is exposed above the soil.

cherubfish pair · 02/01/2010, 03:17 PM

Growing Red Mangroves:
1. The growth tip, (the very top of the green portion of the seed), must be above the water line. They can be placed in a shallow fuge, sump or nano. If you don't use one of these, push the propagule half way through a piece of styrofoam, until green half is fully through the top portion of the styrofoam, and the red portion is hanging underneath the styrofoam. Alternatively, you can bunch the mangroves together with rubberbands, and add a stick, or similarly shaped object to go lengthwise across the opening in the hood of your tank to hold the mangroves out of the water. We bunch them and place them in front of the heater to cover it up, and make the tank look more natural.

2. Add light strong enough to grow macroalgae, or a grow light. You can get these at home depot.
3. Heat. Mangroves like warm temperatures, try to keep them in a room that is at regularly 70 degrees or warmer for best results.
4. MIsting. Even though red mangroves exlcude the majority of the salt in the water, they should be regularly misted to prevent salt buldup.

View Poll Results: Which would be better in a refugium with chaeto? Liverock rubble or coral sand?
Liverock rubble	23	67.65%
Coral sand	11	32.35%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

11/14/2009, 10:27 PM	#1
powers2001 Moved On Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 224	Which would be better in a refugium with chaeto? Liverock rubble or coral sand? This is for nutrient export, growing pods, an emerald crab or two, and maybe some bristle worms to help eat detritus. I read that pods like rock rubble to lay their eggs on. And of course the substrate is also for providing minerals and buffering water as it dissolves. Any and all opinions and experiences are welcome. The tank is for fish and mixed reef with a heavy bioload.

11/14/2009, 10:35 PM	#2
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	The substrate won't provide any minerals or buffering, but it can be a place for animals to grow. If it's a refugium, I'd leave out the crabs, since they'll prey on the animals you're trying to grow. I didn't use any substrate in my refugium, to make it easy to maintain, but fine sand is okay. A bit of live rock might help with filtration. I don't think the substrate makes much difference unless you want to grow plants or algae that require one. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

11/15/2009, 07:09 PM	#6
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Some species of animal might prefer a live rock habitat, but it'd be hard to know what exactly is in our systems. I grew a lot of small animals in Chaetomorpha with no troubles, though. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

11/15/2009, 08:50 PM	#9
Korrine You could get a ticket!! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 4,288 Blog Entries: 1	For nutrient export think about a DSB if your fuge is deep enough. And of course the cheato. __________________ Try to keep in mind that we are all human...mistakes do happen! Be kinder than necessary because every one you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Current Tank Info: 40 breeder - started 9/2011 - platinum perc and sanjay's black photon clownfishes; sps and lps, and soft corals; 250w MH, 20 long sump w Bubble Magus Nac 3.5 skimmer 12g nano cube -serpent star, mini carpet anemones, w 6 sexy shrimp, 150w MH, maxi je

11/14/2009, 10:42 PM	#3
sps1206 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Illinois Posts: 56	If you can't decide put the rubble and sand in there. Thats how a lot of refugiums are anyways..

11/15/2009, 05:42 PM	#5
offroadodge Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Cedar Park, Texas Posts: 168	i hv chaeto, mangroves, live rock, live sand, and agrogate sand on the bottom.

11/15/2009, 07:23 PM	#7
96b.boy Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: sunny fl Posts: 87	i'm running both in mine

11/15/2009, 07:39 PM	#8
cloak Moved On Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Stockton, CA Posts: 14,854	Try not to have to rely on a refuge? Algae growth is good, don't get me wrong, but it's just something that really shouldn't be in play. Sort of a bandaid IMO. Especially when your using RO/DI. Something's off.

11/15/2009, 09:01 PM	#10
Chris27 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 4,452	I have a DSB, Live Rock/Rubble, and chaeto in my fuge...seems to work well enough.

11/21/2009, 06:30 PM	#11
powers2001 Moved On Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 224	Now I'm thinking of two fuges. One with just chaeto and one with MM. I'd also like to raise sexy shrimp to feed some dwarf morays. Last edited by powers2001; 11/21/2009 at 06:31 PM. Reason: spelling

11/21/2009, 09:37 PM	#12
cherubfish pair Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Libby, Montana Posts: 7,061 Blog Entries: 1	Is Southdown play sand that once was so popular, non-calcareous? __________________ pairo chero Thanks for looking at my build thread and subscribe to it if you already haven't yet! Current Tank Info: thirty rimless

11/21/2009, 09:54 PM	#13
Frick-n-Frags Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: north central OH Posts: 10,740	fwiw, i tried the rubble rock in my cheato tub. it became a serious maintenance issue. nothing collects crap like rubble and coarse sand for me. SO, considering that you say this is for nutrient export, IMO, skip the nutrient sink. __________________ Only Dead fish swim with the current. Current Tank Info: 2 50 gal tanks, sump, still BB

11/21/2009, 10:31 PM	#14
reefscape15 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Elmira Heights, NY Posts: 2,812	both if you can. Every system should have an area with some detritus in it. It's un-natural to have water with no wastes in it. Just make sure it doesn't build all too much. __________________ A new beginning........... JIM Current Tank Info: 5g standard softie/zoa tank, just starting a 20H

11/22/2009, 01:05 AM	#15
cherubfish pair Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Libby, Montana Posts: 7,061 Blog Entries: 1	Sand or mud would be better for burrowing animals and lr rubble would be good for sessile animals like sponges. I guess I just answered a lot of my own question. __________________ pairo chero Thanks for looking at my build thread and subscribe to it if you already haven't yet! Current Tank Info: thirty rimless

01/26/2010, 05:59 PM	#16
cherubfish pair Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Libby, Montana Posts: 7,061 Blog Entries: 1	The debate is settled. I'm using live sand. __________________ pairo chero Thanks for looking at my build thread and subscribe to it if you already haven't yet! Current Tank Info: thirty rimless

01/26/2010, 11:25 PM	#17
arrowheadpuffer Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: CA Posts: 396	I stacked some strawberry baskets zip tied together full of live rock rubble in my 55g DSB fuge. With in a short time the stack was covered in tons of pods, its like a pod condo! The baskets help keep the rubble together and from sinking in the sand. __________________ -arrowhead Current Tank Info: 90g

01/29/2010, 05:38 PM	#18
powers2001 Moved On Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 224	What depth of substrate is needed for red mangroves?

01/29/2010, 05:54 PM	#19
Salamander Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Flagstaff, Arizona Posts: 2,103	Like Bertoni, I have no substrate in my fuge. Makes maintenance a whole lot easier. __________________ I feel more like myself now than I did before. Current Tank Info: 120g mixed reef, 2 x 250W DE MH, 2 x 54w T5, MSX 200 SKimmer, 2 Koralia 4's, 40g fuge/sump, QT

01/31/2010, 07:53 PM	#20
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I'm not sure, but I'd guess at least a few inches. They are plants, and need some space for roots. I don't know of a good site for instructions. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

02/01/2010, 09:38 AM	#21
reefscape15 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Elmira Heights, NY Posts: 2,812	I'd shoot for at least 4" if you want to try Mangroves. You CAN keep them in less, if you let the root structure start growing out and then attach them to a rock or something. It takes some time, but you can achieve the same look as you see in many Bonsai Tree displays, where a portion of the root structure is exposed above the soil. __________________ A new beginning........... JIM Current Tank Info: 5g standard softie/zoa tank, just starting a 20H

02/01/2010, 03:17 PM	#22
cherubfish pair Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Libby, Montana Posts: 7,061 Blog Entries: 1	Growing Red Mangroves: 1. The growth tip, (the very top of the green portion of the seed), must be above the water line. They can be placed in a shallow fuge, sump or nano. If you don't use one of these, push the propagule half way through a piece of styrofoam, until green half is fully through the top portion of the styrofoam, and the red portion is hanging underneath the styrofoam. Alternatively, you can bunch the mangroves together with rubberbands, and add a stick, or similarly shaped object to go lengthwise across the opening in the hood of your tank to hold the mangroves out of the water. We bunch them and place them in front of the heater to cover it up, and make the tank look more natural. 2. Add light strong enough to grow macroalgae, or a grow light. You can get these at home depot. 3. Heat. Mangroves like warm temperatures, try to keep them in a room that is at regularly 70 degrees or warmer for best results. 4. MIsting. Even though red mangroves exlcude the majority of the salt in the water, they should be regularly misted to prevent salt buldup. __________________ pairo chero Thanks for looking at my build thread and subscribe to it if you already haven't yet! Current Tank Info: thirty rimless