What makes a tank mature?

[Falconeer]

I've read over and over again that a tank is not considered mature until it has been running succesfully for 6+ months. What is it that qualifies as "mature" at that time, as opposed to...say, a month?

I'm not arguing either way, I'm honestly curious. If your parameters are steady as of a month, why isn't it considered mature at that point?

I'm simply curious.

Thanks,
Falc.

[AquaMonkey]

I believe it is cessation of die off and the multiplication of micro-bacteria. Plus the fact that your not moving everything around in your tank stirring up diatums and more stable water.

But I am sure someone here can say it better than I just tried to do.

Also there was a post a few weeks ago about this very thing if you search for it I'm sure its still around.

[Falconeer]

Originally Posted by AquaMonkey

I believe it is cessation of die off and the multiplication of micro-bacteria. Plus the fact that your not moving everything around in your tank stirring up diatums and more stable water.

But I am sure someone here can say it better than I just tried to do.

Also there was a post a few weeks ago about this very thing if you search for it I'm sure its still around.

Ok, i'll search for it (i've been going back through the pages on this sub-forum for a couple days and didn't notice it, but I also wasn't looking for it).

[themastr]

I left my tank cycling for like 6 months before I started to do anything to it. I think the hardest thing to do in this hobby is have the patience to properly cycle and not be urged to get new corals or fish every day.

[Falconeer]

Originally Posted by themastr

I left my tank cycling for like 6 months before I started to do anything to it. I think the hardest thing to do in this hobby is have the patience to properly cycle and not be urged to get new corals or fish every day.

I definately have to agree

Maintenance is one thing, I started keeping a log book at Day 1, but being on RC everyday just makes me want to sprint over to the LFS and buy all new livestock and start a newer, larger tank, haha!

I'm just curious, because i've seen so many different answers in terms of cyclign and maturity (especially when concerning delicate livestock like most corals and anemones). Some people have told me (more locals than RC members) that a tank can be ready for animals within 10 days when using cured rock. Others tell me that it takes a month to a month and a half, and others like yourself wait six months! That's an amazingly long time, but it's worth it in the end, right?

So, I guess i'm just trying to find out what the consensus is on what qualifies a tank for the classification of matured.

[floridazooguy]

Its more then just the parameters being steady you will see more copepods and all sorts of creatures. Also in a mature take you can add a fish and not notice any changs in new tanks you will see small spikes just for starters.

[Falconeer]

Originally Posted by floridazooguy

Its more then just the parameters being steady you will see more copepods and all sorts of creatures. Also in a mature take you can add a fish and not notice any changs in new tanks you will see small spikes just for starters.

Ok, so handling changes better is key to a mature tank? Obviously small changes, adding too much wouldn't be good for any tank, now would it? Haha.

[pecdo]

it is mature when your parameters are in check even if there are changes in bioload. add one or two fish and see if parameters change. does the system take up the increased nitrogen or do the nitrates increase? same is true with alk and calcium, as you add coals can you keep up with increasing demand. go slow add to the system slowly and examine how the system responds.

[Falconeer]

Ok, thanks for the response! I'll definately keep track of changes next time I add something (probably won't be until late December, early-January).

[floridazooguy]

Yup big changes are not good for any tank but what I ment was what pecdo listed.

[greenbean36191]

The difference is damped oscillations. Basically when the growth rate of a population is high, like it is among bacteria during the cycling process, the population will overshoot the carrying capacity of the environment. The overpopulation causes a crash back to below the carrying capacity. Then since it's below the carrying again, the population starts growing quickly since there's an excess of resources again. They overshoot the carrying capacity again, but a bit less than the first time. Then they crash again, but not quite as much as the first crash. The cycle repeats over and over, but because it's a damped cycle it eventually settles out at the carrying capacity.

How long it takes for the oscillations to settle out will depend on how the tank was set up. Generally the 6 month recommendation is given to newbies because it's should allow the bacteria populations to stabilize and it also allows the newbies time to figure out what's going on with their chemistry

[cloak]

Experience. Parameters are parameters, whether the tank is two months old, or two years old. It's just a matter of one keeping those levels at a habitable level. I think it was stated before in an earliar post, this word really only pertains to newbies.

[Falconeer]

Originally Posted by cloak

Experience. Parameters are parameters, whether the tank is two months old, or two years old. It's just a matter of one keeping those levels at a habitable level. I think it was stated before in an earliar post, this word really only pertains to newbies.

Originally Posted by greenbean36191

The difference is damped oscillations. Basically when the growth rate of a population is high, like it is among bacteria during the cycling process, the population will overshoot the carrying capacity of the environment. The overpopulation causes a crash back to below the carrying capacity. Then since it's below the carrying again, the population starts growing quickly since there's an excess of resources again. They overshoot the carrying capacity again, but a bit less than the first time. Then they crash again, but not quite as much as the first crash. The cycle repeats over and over, but because it's a damped cycle it eventually settles out at the carrying capacity.

How long it takes for the oscillations to settle out will depend on how the tank was set up. Generally the 6 month recommendation is given to newbies because it's should allow the bacteria populations to stabilize and it also allows the newbies time to figure out what's going on with their chemistry

Ok, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks much for the info!

[Shard]

I would say that each tank is unique. Some may mature faster than others. That said the explanations provided on here so far have been good. One question would be, what kind of maturity are you looking for? You could call a newly setup tank mature after the oscillations have decreased, but it may not be mature enough with copepods for something like a mandarin, so it really depends on what your seeking to do.

[cloak]

A lot of people will recommend waitng a certain amount of time before adding an anemone to a tank. If your experienced enough to keep the vitals at a constant level, you can add one right away. You'll probably end up spot feeding it anyways, lighting aside.

[Falconeer]

Originally Posted by Shard

I would say that each tank is unique. Some may mature faster than others. That said the explanations provided on here so far have been good. One question would be, what kind of maturity are you looking for? You could call a newly setup tank mature after the oscillations have decreased, but it may not be mature enough with copepods for something like a mandarin, so it really depends on what your seeking to do.

Well, I think I was addressing a level of maturity where one would not have to ask, "Is my tank ready for this animal?"

So, whether that be if the oscillations are done, or if the pod population is high and steady enough to support a mandarin.

All of the information provided here is very informative, and I really appreciate it as I'm sure it will help me out (I'm sure i'll have at least my fair share of SW tanks down the line) as well as others.

Thanks much for all the info!

[jenglish]

I think it is hard to quantify all the oscillations going on. Of those that I can see, I see a diatom bloom, a pod explosion, the rise of the filter feeding worms that grow in little circles, etc. All of these critters are in a mature tank, but I see very few of them. Populations explode and then are put in check by predation, competition, carrying capacity etc. The amount of populations finding equilibrium that we cannot easily see and track w/o a microscope are likely more numerous.

[discus510]

Originally Posted by themastr

I left my tank cycling for like 6 months before I started to do anything to it. I think the hardest thing to do in this hobby is have the patience to properly cycle and not be urged to get new corals or fish every day.

i personally dont like gettin fish and coral all the time. i just like to stock tank with all the fish i want at once. yesterday i stocked over 30 tangs into my tank. tested water para and everything still ok. will test again tonite and see if anythin skyrocket. like stockin all fish at once so they dont fish and all get along. after last nite everythin seem good. so far so good

[Falconeer]

Originally Posted by discus510

i personally dont like gettin fish and coral all the time. i just like to stock tank with all the fish i want at once. yesterday i stocked over 30 tangs into my tank. tested water para and everything still ok. will test again tonite and see if anythin skyrocket. like stockin all fish at once so they dont fish and all get along. after last nite everythin seem good. so far so good

I can't tell if you're kidding...

If not, what size tank are you putting them in? Even so, I don't see how there couldn't be an explosion in ammonia, trates and trites.

[Lightsluvr]

Originally Posted by discus510

i personally dont like gettin fish and coral all the time. i just like to stock tank with all the fish i want at once. yesterday i stocked over 30 tangs into my tank. tested water para and everything still ok. will test again tonite and see if anythin skyrocket. like stockin all fish at once so they dont fish and all get along. after last nite everythin seem good. so far so good

You're kidding, right?

Unless you're pulling our chain, or are some kind of miracle reefer, you probably just flushed hudreds of dollars down the toilet...

Good luck.

LL

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by cloak

A lot of people will recommend waitng a certain amount of time before adding an anemone to a tank. If your experienced enough to keep the vitals at a constant level, you can add one right away. You'll probably end up spot feeding it anyways, lighting aside.

I think alot depends on the condition of the live rock. I usually take live rock for a tank I am setting up from a supply that I keep in my system for at least a couple of months. With an immediate transfer and the use of Seachem Prime and Stability I can add a fish or two the first week and continue doing so. I have had success adding anemones in the third week.
Weekly water changes are also important to this process

[jenglish]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...1743951&page=3

not kidding. 30 fish in a 320

[Aquarist007]

Originally Posted by Lightsluvr

You're kidding, right?

Unless you're pulling our chain, or are some kind of miracle reefer, you probably just flushed hudreds of dollars down the toilet...

Good luck.

LL

I would like to know where he even found 30 tangs at this time in the market.

[discus510]

all over the bay area. i drove to so many different stores. just yesterday alone i drove over 400 miles and i have so many boxes in car i couldnt see outta car driver side window. tank is 320 gallon with total of 570 gallon 600 lbs of live rock 400 lbs of live sand. everythin is doin ok as of last nite. today im at shop. ill let u guys know if anythin dies if theres a spike. its just looks like too many fish in there. not look it is too many fish in there. now i have an excuse to wife i need the 1200 gallon faster

[Korrine]

Great read w/all credit going to the GREAT ERIC BORNEMAN!!!

Hi Eric, I was hoping you could help me to understand better what it means for a system to "mature" or "become established". Hobbyists (me included) are always saying not to keep that sps or this anenome for a least a year until your system has matured. What exactly are the differences between a tank which finished cycling a month ago and one that finished cycling 11 months ago? Does it have to do with water parameters being more stable? Does it have to do with natural food availability? Does "tank maturity" pertain more to those who utilize a DSB, because it takes 6 months for a DSB to become functional ?<<

Tank maturity seems to be even more of an issue without the sand bed. The sand bed just takes some time to get enough nutrients in it to sustain populations and stratify into somewhat stable communities and become functional. So, here's the tank reason, and then I'll blow into some ecology for you. When you get a tank, you start with no populations of anything. You get live rock to form the basis of the biodiversity - and remember that virtually everything is moderated by bacteria and photosynthesis in our tanks. So liverock is the substrate for all these processes, and also has a lot of life on it. How much depends on a lot of things.

Mostly, marine animals and plants don’t like to be out of water for a day at a time...much less the many days to sometimes a week that often happens. So, assuming you are not using existing rock from a tank, or the well-treated aquacultured stuff, you have live rock that is either relatively free of anything alive to begin with, or you have live rock with a few stragglers and a whole lot of stuff dying or about to die because it won’t survive in the tank. Some, if not most, rock exporters have a “curing process” that gets rid of a lot of the life to begin with and some of this is to keep it from dying and fouling further, but some of it would have lived if treated more carefully.

From the moment you start, you are in the negative. Corallines will be dying, sponges, dead worms and crustaceans and echinoids and bivalves, many of which are in the rock and you won't ever see. Not to mention the algae, cyanobacteria, and bacteria, most of which is dehydrated, dead or dying, and will decompose. This is where the existing bacteria get kick started. Bacteria grow really fast, and so they are able to grow to levels that are capable of uptaking nitrogen within...well, the cycling time of a few weeks to a month or so. The “starter bacteria” products give me a chuckle. Anyone with a passing knowledge of microbiology would realize that for a product to contain live bacteria in a medium that sustains it would quickly turn into a nearly solid mass of bacteria, and if the medium is such that it keeps them inactive, then the amount of bacteria in a bottle is like adding a grain of salt to the ocean compared to what is going to happen quickly in a tank with live rock in it.

However, if you realize the doubling time of these bugs, you would know that in a month, you should have a tank packed full of bacteria and no room for water. That means something is killing or eating bacteria. Also realize that if you have a tank with constant decomposition happening at a rate high enough to spike ammonia off the scale, you have a lot of bacteria food...way more than you will when things stop dying off and decomposing. So, bacterial growth may have caught up with the level of nitrogen being produced, but things are still dying...you just test zero for ammonia because there are enough bacteria present to keep up with the nitrogen being released by the dying stuff. It does not necessarily mean things are finished decomposing or that ammonia is not being produced.

Now, if things are decomposing, they are releasing more than ammonia. Guess what dead sponges release? All their toxic metabolites. Guess what else? All their natural antibiotic compounds which prevents some microbes from doing very well. Same with the algae, the inverts, the cyano, the dinoflagellates, etc. They all produce things that can be toxic – and sometimes toxic to things we want, and sometimes to things we don’t want. So, let's just figure this death and decomposition is going take a while.

OK, so now we have a tank packed with some kinds of bacteria, probably not much of others. Eventually the death stops. Now, what happens to all that biomass of bacteria without a food source? They die. Some continue on at an equilibrium level with the amount of nutrients available. And, denitrification is a slow process. Guess what else? Bacteria also have antibiotics, toxins, etc. all released when they die. But, the die-off is slow, relative to the loss of nutrients, and there is already a huge population, and yet you never test ammonia. "The water tests fine.” But, all these swings are happening. Swings of death, followed by growth until limited, then death again, then nutrients available for growth, and then limitation and death. But, every time, they get less and less, but they keep happening – even in mature tanks. Eventually, they slow and stabilize.

What's left? A tank with limited denitrification (because its slow and aerobic things happen fast) and a whole lot of other stuff in the water. Who comes to the rescue and thrives during these cycles? The next fastest growing groups...cyanobacteria, single celled algae, protists, ciliates, etc. Then they do their little cycle thing. And then the turf algae take advantage of the nutrients (the hair algae stage). Turfs get mowed down by all the little amphipods that are suddenly springing up because they have a food source. Maybe you've bought some snails by now, too, or a fish. And the fish dies, of course, because it may not have ammonia to contend with, but is has water filled with things we can't and don't test for...plus, beginning aquarists usually skimp on lights and pumps initially, and haven't figured out that alkalinity test, so pH and O2 are probably swinging wildly at this point.

So, the algae successions kick in, and eventually you have a good algal biomass that handles nitrogen, produces oxygen through photosynthesis, takes up the metabolic CO2 of all the other heterotrophs you can’t see, the bacteria have long settled in and also deal with nutrients, and the aquarium keeper has probably stopped adding fish for a spell because they keep dying. Maybe they started to visit boards and read books and get the knack of the tank a bit. They have probably also added a bunch of fix-it-quick chemicals that didn’t help any, either. Also, they are probably scared to add corals that would actually help with the photosynthesis and nutrient uptake, or they have packed in corals that aren't tolerant of those conditions.

About a year into it, the sand bed is productive and has stratified, water quality is stable, and the aquarist has bought a few more powerheads, understands water quality a bit, corallines and algae, if not corals and other things are photosynthesizing well, and the tank is "mature." That's when fish stop dying when you buy them (at least the cyanide free ones) and corals start to live and grow and I stop getting posts about "I just bought a coral and its dying and my tank is two months old" and they start actually answering some questions here and there instead of just asking questions (though we should all always be asking questions, if not only to ourselves!).

So, ecologically, this is successional population dynamics. Its normal, and it happens when there is a hurricane or a fire, or whatever. In nature though, you have pioneer species that are eventually replaced by climax communities. We usually try and stock immediately with climax species. And find it doesn't always work.

Now, the "too mature" system is the old tank syndrome. Happens in nature, too. That whole forest fire reinvigorating the system is true. Equally true on coral reefs where the intermediate disturbance hypothesis is the running thought on why coral reefs maintain very high diversity...they are stable, but not too stable, and require storms, but not catastrophic ones....predation, but not a giant blanket of crown of thorns, mass bleaching, or loss of key herbivores.

This goes to show what good approximations these tanks are of mini-ecosystems. Things happen much faster in tanks, but what do you expect given the bioload per unit area. So, our climax community happens in a couple years rather than a couple of centuries. Thing is, I am fully convinced that intermediate tank disturbance would prevent old tank syndrome.

My advice on starting tanks is to plan the habitat you want. Find the animals and corals you like. Learn about the tiny area of the reef you will try and recreate, and do not try to make a whole coral reef in one tank. Then, purchase the equipment required to emulate that environment. Then, add the appropriate types of substrate (sand, rubble, rock, whatever) and wait long after “your tank water tests fine” before you add fish and corals. First, add herbivores and maintain water quality. Water changes, carbon, skimming, alkalinity, calcium. Keep the water of high quality, even for things you can’t test for. Wait a few months and enjoy the growth that will happen. Then, add some of the species that you plan to keep….invertebrates and corals. They help create the environment, and also photosynthesize, add biodiversity, stabilize nutrients, etc. Then….then….add fish. The fish will have a reef as their new home. They won’t be stressed by this variable bouilllabaise of water and a strange habitat that keeps changing as things are added or die. They will have a stable tank with real habitat, and then the original concept you imagined will have happened.


_____________________
Eric Borneman

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic23945-9-1.aspx