Good parameters/crappy tank...I'm stumped!

[eyeguy]

My set-up:

180 gal display w/ #2 250W 15k XM HQI and #2 T5 actinics
Ampmaster on CL w/ Oceans Motions
Over flow to filter sock then MRC double beckett skimmer (set to run very wet) before heading to 50 gal "settling/water change tank" and then to sump/refugium containing sand, LR, and macroalgae that I harvest monthly.
Calcium reactor comes on whenever pH > 8.10
Top-off water RO/DI measuring 0 TDS
Running BRS GFO and carbon in separate reactors; change media monthly
Also empirically running cuprisorb for the last week (see below)
Estimated total water volume 300 gal
Change 50 gal water monthly
Fish include 5 chromis, watchman goby, 2 clowns, a foxface, and desjardini sailfin tang.
Various sps frags (suffering), a couple of softies and zoos/shrooms doing ok.

My water:

SG 1.027
T= 79
pH 8.03-8.15
Alk 13.5 dKh last week, falling to 12.5 dKh now
Ca++ 440
Mg++ 1470
NO3 = 0 (salifert)
PO4 = 0.05 (Hanna colorimeter)

My problem:

The tank looks like *%@! and I keep experiencing episodes of RTN. I'm definitely battling dinoflagellates and some cyano, as well as red turf algae. My clean-up crew had withered away so I purchased several hundred snails, most of which died after 2hr drip acclimation. Many of the survivors just lay there alive but immobile until the hermits eat them. I added the cuprisorb on the chance that I had some heavy metal toxicity, but the surviving snails have not perked up. The crabs have done fine and there were peppermint shrimp in the tank already that have done great. I've been agitating the display frequently to try to stir the shallow sand and remove any detritis that has built up. I've just completed a 4 day lights out cycle on both the display and the sump. The dino/cyano looked better when I turned the lights back on but I've got dinoflagellates on the surface of the sump/refugium within hours of the lights coming back on. However, I discovered a couple of sps frags RTN'd while the lights were out. I'm dismayed at seeing my stony corals recede or RTN and really getting frustrated! I don't want to spend another several hundred dollars on clean-up critters just to have them die again. With the carbon and cuprisorb I can't imagine what could be toxic in the system and with good parameters I don't even know what I'm chasing! I could certainly use some advice how to get the tank back on track.

[arrowheadpuffer]

Just a thought, might you have power leaking into the tank? Maybe try a grounding probe?

[eyeguy]

Thanks for the thought but I do have a grounding probe.

[Rhodan]

Take a sample of water to LFS to have it doubled checked and possibly checked for metals....I know you are going to hear this a lot and you probably aren't going to think it is necessary, but more frequent water changes will help a lot to clean out any toxins you may have in your tank.

But I am curious as to what is causing your issues.

[McCrary]

Your salinity is a little high (maybe aim more for 1.025), but I would be willing to bet that your RTN issues are a result of alkalinity swings. Test your alkalinity in the morning and at night, it shouldn't vary too much.

[eyeguy]

I don't mind doing more frequent water changes at all. However, I've read that frequent water changes may make dinoflagellates worse. As a matter of fact, that is the first thing the vendor asked me about when I notified them of my snail troubles "have you been doing a lot of water changes b/c dinoflagellates can be toxic". What do you think?

Unfortunately, I live in a rural area and don't have access to any quality LFS for water testing. Seems that the combination of carbon and cuprisorb should remove any heavy metals anyway but I'd be willing to try testing if someone knows a place that I could mail a sample to.

[McCrary]

You are also adding way to many clean up critters, I would add a few little scarlet hermits and top snails at a time and see how those do. You may also want to break up your water changes into weekly or biweekly rather than monthly. What salt are you using? Anytime you turn the lights off your SPS are going to react poorly and when you turn the lights back on you can burn them. Running a good carbon and a good GFO, I like twopartsolution for these items, will make a big difference.

[reefergeorge]

Originally Posted by eyeguy

Thanks for the thought but I do have a grounding probe.

Maybe take out the ground probe. Then check for stray voltage with a volt meter.

[McCrary]

BRS should make good carbon and GFO, I doubt you need to switch.

[hemi-cuda]

I thought grounding probe too. Maybe need one in tank and one in sump. I hate to ask, but Any pictures possible. I'm just curious if coralline is growing or is the rock basically white or bare? A picture or two is better than a thousand words. You didn't say how long tank was set-up. What's the light schedule for tank and fuge? How much carbon and what kind?

[ChadTheSpike]

Two questions,
What and how often are you feeding?
what is your substrate?

[eyeguy]

I feed about 3 times weekly, usually a combo of Ocean Nutrition formula 1 and 2 mixed w/ Cyclopeze.

Substrate is caribsea crushed coral to a depth of 2-3 inches in the display. This tank is about 18 months old. There is adequate coralline growth but it is not robust due to the red turf algae.

The fuge light is on 24-7. The display is on about 10 hrs.

[ChadTheSpike]

Do you siphon your CC when you do your monthly water change? Is there a lot of detritus in it?

How is your plankton population? pods, amphipods bristle worms, etc?

[Names Brucey]

No chance you have a copper fitting inadvertantly in there somewhere? Sounds like a possible metals issue if your CUC is dieing that quickly.

[shellshocked]

I agree on the CC bed - in my experience they do nothing but trap bad stuff. I would aggressively vacuum it or remove most of it. Also don't forget about the sump - I run a remote 50 gallon sump and it collects a bunch of detruis that I clean out about every six months.

[hemi-cuda]

Crushed Coral gravel on the bottom.....Do you vacuum it at all or at least stir the top 1'' when you do your H20 changes? Personally I would vacuum what you can reach at least every month as part of your water changes or better yet as suggested in another post smaller bi-monthly changes would be better. A 1'' to 1-1/2'' layer of sand would have been much better. I really believe the gravel may be part of the problem. It is becoming a detritus sink aka cesspool unless you are siphoning it off when doing water changes. Do you? I would think at those calcium/alkalinity/Mg levels in the tank Coralline algae should be growing out of the tank too and sps should be thriving. Personally I would operate the fuge lights opposite of the main tank. When the main tank is on, fuge is off...main tank off, fuge is on. Everything in nature needs a light/dark cycle IMHO. I'm also guessing because of the gravel being very dirty the organic load in the water is high, hence disturbing the growth of coralline. What kind of carbon and how much do you use each time? When you put some water in a clear glass is it clear or tinted? Again, Can you put up a picture of the tank?

[eyeguy]

No I don't siphon the display, but I do regularly stir the sand bed. I am able to collect detritis from the display in the filter sock and anything that escapes that collects in the settling tank before going on to the fuge. I had a massive pod population but these have died off quite a bit with the onset of the dinoflagellates. Don't see many bristle worms.

No copper fittings anywhere. I did have to use a brass bushing for a week a couple of months ago during an emergency repair until I could get the PVC adaptor shipped from Savko. I know brass has copper in it but I can't imagine that a single bushing for a week could contaminate a 300 gal system. I've been running the Cuprisorb for the last couple of weeks anyway just to rule this possibility out.

Lets just say that I DID have copper in the system as the toxin to the snails. Would the surviving snails recover upon removing the copper from the system?

I had planned to have the fuge lit opposite the display, but for some reason my x10 controller doesn't turn it off. I've just never gotten around to replacing it

Sounds like the consensus so far is the usual culprit...excess nutrients. However I test 0 Nitrate and very low phosphate and am agressively exported nutrients with wet skimming, carbon, GFO, and mechanical filtration. I'm thinking of removing the LR from the fuge tomorrow and vacumming the sand bed there.

I can try getting some pics up tomorrow if everyone really believes that is critical to the diagnostics here.

[hemi-cuda]

The CC Gravel I'm sure towards the darkest area of the bottom would be very dirty especially after 18 months. Yup, I would do the fuge too for sure. Possibly because of the dirty gravel bed you lost your pod population and without the pods algae will thrive. I know this is going to sound old school, but we used to hook up a simple Tetra Hydro-Clean to a Vortex XL Diatom filter so we could just recirculate the water as we were cleaning the gravel instead of changing a barrel of water to get the 18 months of silt and detritus out of the gravel. Wet skimming not only removes bad stuff but also lots of good stuff. What kind and how much carbon do you use each time? For the third time. Sorry gettin' tired and go'in to bed. Talk to ya tomorrow.

[lordofthereef]

I know air water and ice will do free water testing for you if you send them a sample in the mail. That might be something to consider. Readings, as far as nutrients are concerned, are not a very good indication of anything. If you have algae growing, you have excess nutrients somewhere, be it from feeding, absorbed in the rock, mixed in with the sandbed, whatever. As to the copper, I would expect it to adversely effect the inverts once they are exposed to high enough concentrations and not simply clear up as soon as you are able to remove it. What is your water change method? Are you mixing RO with a salt mix? I wouldn't expect frequent water changes, if using good water, to be your problem.

[eyeguy]

Hemi-cuda,

My original post said I used BRS carbon; guess you missed it there. I use BRS carbon, specifically the ROX 0.8. I don't know the exact amount, but I fill a refillable cartridge with it; same type cartridged used for DI resin on a standard RO/DI system.

[eyeguy]

Lordofthe reef,

I use RO/DI water with IO salt for my water changes 50 gal monthy (roughly 16% volume change).

Can you tell me how to contact "air water and ice"?

[Rhodan]

Originally Posted by eyeguy

Lets just say that I DID have copper in the system as the toxin to the snails. Would the surviving snails recover upon removing the copper from the system?

Are you saying that you DID have a copper problem at one time and you are still recovering from that? How did the copper get into the system (meds, pipes, a penny, etc.)?

Do you have a copper test kit?

[hyperfocal]

Pick up a Poly-Filter pad. If you have an problems with metals, it'll absorb them and change color -- if the pad turns green, the problem is copper.

[tkeracer619]

You need to get a handle on the dino's. They will kill and stun snails like you describe.

Check source water for issues.

[CJO]

Maybe I missed it, but do you test for ammonia (NH3/4) and nitrite (NO2)?

CJ