Need an electricians Input... Federal Pacific Box

Saltcity · 02/24/2010, 05:08 PM

I'm going to run a dedicated line to my in wall fish tank at my office.

The box is a Federal Pacific L120-40 and it looks pretty standard compared to my houses electric box. The thing that is confusing me is that the wire used for this building (built in 1978) is stranded copper and there are different colors.... Red, Black, White and a few Greens and one Purple.
It looks like all the different strands run up the Conduit with no protection, I guess because its a metal building with conduit out in the shop area.
I'm guessing the different colors were a way to keep things organized and know what goes to which area of the building!?

My question is, The breakers look like normal 20amp breakers. Can I just run normal 12-2 from the breaker over to the fish "room" ??? Without conduit all the way?

I guess what I'm looking for is to hear "A breaker box is a breaker box and I'm over analyzing it....!?!?!"

HarrsCars · 02/24/2010, 05:34 PM

I am not an electrican but do glorified diy electrical..... You want to use one of your breakers on the main panel to wire your fish room???? Is this right??? How many outlets??? What is total load under power??? Do you really want all your plug-ins on one breaker???? What happens if it trips and you are not home or dont notice it???? Just my two cents there? Dont worry somewhere here is a real electrican that will ask way harder questions than me. LOL I wired in a sub panel to my fish room and put in 12 extra circuits some are dedicated to just one plug. This allowed me to kill power on some items but leave others running so the whole fish room does not go down and all is lost. More power than I will every need but I am ready for any future upgrades.

"A breaker box is a breaker box and I'm over analyzing it....!?!?!"
Not when it comes to electricity and water.

Shockingly
Mike

Saltcity · 02/24/2010, 05:42 PM

Well, no.. There is already one circuit over there with only 2 plugs on it..That will run my heaters. I will run a dedicated line for my lighting and Hydor wavemaker and I will also be running another dedicated line with 4 plugs and a GFI down in the sump area.

I just wanted to simplify it for discussion.
Thanks for caring though!!

Thats what makes this site great...

Chris27 · 02/24/2010, 05:54 PM

How exactly are you going about it, are you pulling a line off your existing breaker box, or are you going to use the line coming into the house? Basically a breaker box is a breaker box, and wire selection is directly related to the amount of current you plan on drawing. Determine how many breakers you will be using in the new box, add up the current, and then pick your supply wire. For example, if you plan on using 10 15amp breakers, the wire supplying the box should be 0 AWG - from that point on it's ok to use 12-2.

Greysoul · 02/24/2010, 05:55 PM

I have a good electrical background, I've wired many shops and a house or two....

My best answer is "Maybe" and you should find a local electrician to help you.

FWIW in the US the color codes denote:

Red/black = hot - Usually if it's one or the other it's 120 volts, if it's both then each one is a 120v leg of a 220v circuit.
White = neutral
Green = ground
Orange = wild phase (208v)

The purple line could be for 3 phase power, it could be a second hot, could be anything really. Usually purple is a third phase, but it could be a lighting circuit, a control, a separate GFCI ground... no telling without seeing it and testing it.

Hire a local. I bet your LFS has an electrician as a customer they can hook you up with.

-Doug

Saltcity · 02/24/2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris27

How exactly are you going about it, are you pulling a line off your existing breaker box, or are you going to use the line coming into the house? Basically a breaker box is a breaker box, and wire selection is directly related to the amount of current you plan on drawing. Determine how many breakers you will be using in the new box, add up the current, and then pick your supply wire. For example, if you plan on using 10 15amp breakers, the wire supplying the box should be 0 AWG - from that point on it's ok to use 12-2.

No, no... I'm just putting an extra 20amp breaker in the box and running a wire from it up coduit into the drop ceiling and then along the wall and studs to the fish area. Will be drawing 880 watts of lighting and then the DC wavemaker which won't be much.
I'm going to use one of the existing breakers that was hooked to a single plug that ran a grinder, we no longer have the grinder.

Every circuit will be well below its limits, I just was wondering about the different color wires and I got a little intimidated by it all. I thought "HUH, I wonder if it has to be stranded wire?" BUT, wire is wire basically,especially since I won't be pulling more than maybe 10 amps on each circuit....Right?

For my fish room at home I added a 20amp breaker and ran either 12-2 or 12-3 from the box to the fish room with no problems. I think 12-2....

The Purple wire is running over to a single plug, along with 3 other wires and it was dedicated to a different machine that is no longer here.
Whats, scary is, I trust ME more than the local help around this small farm town.
I had a guy come wire 220 for an air compressor and as soon as he plugged it in.... Kaplow!!! ZZZZzzzzz.. Not sure what he did but he said he's done it before............???

rwing · 02/24/2010, 06:28 PM

The simple way to do this is to follow the wires coming into your box and see which one or color is connected to the breakers. That is your hot line....the neutral line will be connected to the box somewhere. You can run 20 amps through 12-2 wire. The easy way to determine your amp load is to divide total watts by volts. For example if you had a 1000 watt hair dryer plugged into a 120 volt outlet it would be drawing approx. 8 amps. As long as you don't overload your wire with more amps than it's rated for you should be fine. I recommend using a volt meter just to be on the safe side when working with electricity....you just can't be too safe. That said, it's a really simple job that you shouldn't have any trouble with. Hope this helps.

CWP · 02/24/2010, 06:42 PM

In some places, the purple wire is used as a high leg, (stinger leg) and is not a normal 120 volt line, but 240 volts. They were used in the past as a means to save electricity on equipment, and still exist in some places. What would happen is the house would be normal 120/240 volt, and the stinger leg was dedicated for equipment, most notably 3 phase air conditioning and heating systems. The reason is that 3 phase equipment is more efficient than single phase, much like running a metal halide is more efficient when it is hooked up 240 volts than 120 volts. That being said, it could have been retrofitted along the way and is only 120 volts, but that must be determined using a volt-meter. As for the conduit, certain commercial building require metal conduit, although not all do. All wiring (according to the code) must be in conduit if it is exposed less than 8 feet off the ground, even if it is a residential application. So all of those sheds out there with bare romex stapled to a stud are not code. Of course, if the wire is in covered by sheetrock, it does not need to be in conduit. Getting back to your situation: if there is no romex in your building, don't use romex. Buy 12/2 mc cable, also found at your local hardware store. If there is some romex in the building, run romex but sleeve the wire in some kind of conduit, either metal or grey pvc, at least up to 8 feet off the ground. That will cover the code. As for hooking it up to your panel, make sure that you are hooking it up to a 120 volt circuit. If the purple is a high leg, you should be able to tell because every third space in your panel will either be empty, or have a 2 - 3 pole breaker on it, like the kind you would have for a stove. Of course, having an electrician is always a good idea, and the suggestion of finding one through your local LFS is a great idea. I hope I haven't confused you more, and I hope you understand that it is best to get someone knowledgeable to help you. Hope this helped.

Saltcity · 02/24/2010, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwing

The simple way to do this is to follow the wires coming into your box and see which one or color is connected to the breakers. That is your hot line....the neutral line will be connected to the box somewhere. You can run 20 amps through 12-2 wire. The easy way to determine your amp load is to divide total watts by volts. For example if you had a 1000 watt hair dryer plugged into a 120 volt outlet it would be drawing approx. 8 amps. As long as you don't overload your wire with more amps than it's rated for you should be fine. I recommend using a volt meter just to be on the safe side when working with electricity....you just can't be too safe. That said, it's a really simple job that you shouldn't have any trouble with. Hope this helps.

I'm running new wire so that really is not an issue of whats hot or not.

Like I said, I think I'm over analyzing it.

Saltcity · 02/24/2010, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWP

In some places, the purple wire is used as a high leg, (stinger leg) and is not a normal 120 volt line, but 240 volts. They were used in the past as a means to save electricity on equipment, and still exist in some places. What would happen is the house would be normal 120/240 volt, and the stinger leg was dedicated for equipment, most notably 3 phase air conditioning and heating systems. The reason is that 3 phase equipment is more efficient than single phase, much like running a metal halide is more efficient when it is hooked up 240 volts than 120 volts. That being said, it could have been retrofitted along the way and is only 120 volts, but that must be determined using a volt-meter. As for the conduit, certain commercial building require metal conduit, although not all do. All wiring (according to the code) must be in conduit if it is exposed less than 8 feet off the ground, even if it is a residential application. So all of those sheds out there with bare romex stapled to a stud are not code. Of course, if the wire is in covered by sheetrock, it does not need to be in conduit. Getting back to your situation: if there is no romex in your building, don't use romex. Buy 12/2 mc cable, also found at your local hardware store. If there is some romex in the building, run romex but sleeve the wire in some kind of conduit, either metal or grey pvc, at least up to 8 feet off the ground. That will cover the code. As for hooking it up to your panel, make sure that you are hooking it up to a 120 volt circuit. If the purple is a hot leg, you should be able to tell because every third space will either be empty, or have a 2 - 3 pole breaker on it, like the kind you would have for a stove. Of course, having an electrician is always a good idea, and the suggestion of finding one through your local LFS is a great idea. I hope I haven't confused you more, and I hope you understand that it is best to get someone knowledgeable to help you. Hope this helped.

Thanks.. Not confusing at all. I did purchase plastic conduit which is what was used originally and it will be more than 8 feet up. The original wiring is maybe that 12/2 mc cable or something, But there is some romex for the office which was added 10 yrs. after the building was built.
The purple was hooked to a 20 amp breaker, so "Hot", and is ran to a single plug that WAS for a grinder but now is a dedicated Stereo outlet!!

So if I run romex up the conduit into the "Attic" do I have to continue the conduit the the wall of where I am putting the fish tank or can I staple along the rafters/studs? The romex that IS there already is just draped across the insulation to the office area... I bet thats not code!!

CWP · 02/24/2010, 06:57 PM

You only need to protect the wire in an exposed wall. In the attic, it's no problem. And if you put sheetrock or paneling on the wall the wire is coming down, you don't need to protect it. The idea is that romex can be damaged easily and needs protection. Glad I didn't confuse you. For what it's worth, mc cable is just like romex except instead of a plastic sheath, it has a metal casing. It's used all the time in commercial applications in place of conduit because it's easy to work with. And you're right, wire just running across the attic with no staples is not code, but I can promise you that 90% of the homes I have been in (and commercial buildings too) have less strapping than is code. Generally, the original work is done to code, but everyone that comes in later to add circuits never use enough, if any, straps.

Saltcity · 02/24/2010, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWP

You only need to protect the wire in an exposed wall. In the attic, it's no problem. And if you put sheetrock or paneling on the wall the wire is coming down, you don't need to protect it. The idea is that romex can be damaged easily and needs protection. Glad I didn't confuse you. For what it's worth, mc cable is just like romex except instead of a plastic sheath, it has a metal casing. It's used all the time in commercial applications in place of conduit because it's easy to work with. And you're right, wire just running across the attic with no staples is not code, but I can promise you that 90% of the homes I have been in (and commercial buildings too) have less strapping than is code. Generally, the original work is done to code, but everyone that comes in later to add circuits never use enough, if any, straps.

Thanks for your help, your time and your expertise!!

You outta see my dads house!!! Wow!! He was recently remodeling the bathroom and needed more power so he tied into a circuit for the downstairs... This has been done several times throught the years!!! Yikes!! He says hes gonna die there so whats the big deal.....

CWP · 02/24/2010, 07:32 PM

No problem. Glad I could help. And I'm not surprised anymore with what happens in houses. I was in an apartment building once, and a guy took a dremel tool to cut open the conduit supplying power to his neighbors apartment and used coat hangers tied together as wire to steal power. He damn near burned the entire complex down. There were two burn marks under the wire where it was burning into the rafters. And it worked. The only way I found out was by doing a job completely unrelated where I had to crawl through this other guys attic. True story. After that, nothing surprises me. Good luck, and if you need more help, feel free to send me a message.

Regards,
Chris

THE GIMP · 02/24/2010, 08:09 PM

I think what you are asking is it to code.
Commercial or industrial applications require MC or conduit. Romex is only for residential uses.
I would run 12/3 MC because it is the same amount of work as running 12/2 MC. Even if you do not anticipate using it today, you will wish you did. You could also pull new #12's in existing conduit if there is room and if it goes to the same area you are planning to put the fish room.

I am pretty sure that your panel is a basic single phase 120/220 volt, 200 amp. If it was 3 phase you would have blue wires as well. Purple wire is usually used as a switch leg, well, in So cal anyways. A previous electrician prolly used that because he had it. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it is used as a hot and not a neutral. "High-Leg" are a commercial use thing and is usually in orange, well, in So cal anyways.

Federal Pacific Panels are not the best but if it has not given you problems I would not worry about it. Make sure that there is enough room on that panel. Not just open space for a breaker, but available amperage.

If you can't find a local electrician, maybe ask your HVAC guy if he knows anyone.

Too funny Chris, Tweekers doing electrical work is never a good combination, lol.

Paul B · 02/24/2010, 08:16 PM

Quote:

My question is, The breakers look like normal 20amp breakers. Can I just run normal 12-2 from the breaker over to the fish "room" ??? Without conduit all the way?

To answer your question, yes you can.

To answer your other question if a panel is a panel, well no. But for your purposes just run a 2 wire romex to wher ever you want as long as that 2 wire romex has a ground, and hook it up properly.
Of course use a GFCI receptacle rated for 20 amps, most Home Depot GFCIs are 15 amp

(Electrician in Manhattan 40 years)

CWP · 02/24/2010, 08:37 PM

Some of what you say is true, but not all. Romex can be used in certain commercial applications, dependent upon what the building is used for and what the maximum occupancy is, at least in Florida. As for orange being used as a stinger leg, that is true in many places, including Florida. When I worked in Houston, however, they used purple for "B" phase of all high voltage, not just open delta stinger legs. So it's not valid to say that you can only use mc, bx, or conduit in every commercial application, which is why I asked about the use of romex throughout the building. That's all. But I am aware of using blue as the "C" phase of 3 phase 120/208 Wye systems. Obviously codes change from state to state, but in Florida we follow the 2005 NEC, at least from what I've heard. Perhaps they have adopted the 2008 code, but our state government often lags behind the national code a few years.

As for running a 12-3 cable, that will not work with a GFI properly. I don't know why that is, but a shared neutral causes GFCI's to trip. I'm sure someone knows the in's and out's of it.

Getting help would be a good idea. Good luck.

And you are right about Tweekers and electrical work. Somehow, though, they never seem to blow themselves up. I could make millions writing down all the things I've seen doing service work, but nobody would believe me.

Saltcity · 02/24/2010, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THE GIMP

Make sure that there is enough room on that panel. Not just open space for a breaker, but available amperage.

Well, here is another problem then. The metal building is built onto a house that was there first. For some reason there is a 90 amp breaker in this box labeled "feed for house". So, I guess they are running the house through this box?!?
The house is empty, just storage, so its not like there will ever be someone using it. This is all family owned property and the house is pretty shabby.

There is that 90 amp breaker and then several 20 amp breakers, maybe 6 of them so if everything was on and maxed out, it would exceed the 200 amp limit, right?

There are a lot of breakers hooked to only one receptacle so I think a lot of the circuits could be combined....?!

CWP · 02/24/2010, 09:44 PM

90 amp breaker? I didn't know they came in 90 amps, but whatever. Even if it was 100 amp, having 6 20 amp circuits shouldn't make that much difference. Realistically, none of those breakers run anywhere near their full ampere rating. So it should be fine. If you don't feel comfortable, get an electrician to come by and take an amp reading with everything on. It's easier (faster) than having them perform a load calculation, even though that's not difficult, just somewhat time consuming. The truth is that no circuit should ever have more than 80% of it rated ampacity ever. When they do approach that maximum, frequently breakers start getting warm and "things" happen, such as wearing out receptacles, lights flickering, and so on. As for multiple breakers feeding one receptacle, that's not happening. Perhaps that box is being used to feed through to other circuits in the house, but that would be it. The most you could have is 2 circuits feeding 1 receptacle; this is usually only found, if at all, on temporary poles on job sites. This is because some equipment draws excessive amounts of power, such as big air compressors.

Saltcity · 02/24/2010, 10:02 PM

I promise its a 90 amp. Its the size of a double breaker...not sure of the technical term, but it takes up two spots. This was install back in 85ish so maybe they just combine everything back in the day and threw it on a huge breaker!!

CWP · 02/24/2010, 10:24 PM

I'm sure it exists, it's just rare. Generally, someone would use a 100 amp breaker. It's probably for a sub-panel, but it could be for a heating unit. Sometimes an electrician will run a large wire to a heating unit and then have separate breakers for the heat strips, the motor, and a sump pump or convenience outlet. At least that's all I can think of being in a house. Nevertheless, it shouldn't change what you're trying to do. I think you will have no problems, but if you are concerned, definitely consult with an electrician or get your hands on an amp meter. It can be used to determine how much load you have on your panel. What has probably happened is that the house had a 100 amp service, and when the shop was added on, they put in a larger service (200 amps) to feed both the house and the shop. It's pretty common when houses are added onto or central heating is added to a house.

Saltcity · 02/24/2010, 10:38 PM

Ok... I appreciate all the help.

Now comes the fun work!! wish me luck....

THE GIMP · 02/24/2010, 11:54 PM

Most of my answers to questions like these on venues such as these, I try to leave out allot of information and constrain my answers with the safety of the novice in mind. I also give general directions, leaving many of the exceptions out of the solution and suggest a sort of 'one size fits all' answer, since most of it is out of their concern or ability. With that in mind, I should have taken my previous answer and twiddled it down to something like Mr. Paul B's answer.
You'll be fine Saltcity! Good Luck!

Paul B · 02/25/2010, 05:31 AM

CWP is correct, I didn't see the first line.

Quote:

I'm going to run a dedicated line to my in wall fish tank at my office.

Many places including where I live in NY you can not use Romex any where in a commercial application.
I mistakenly assumed it was residential.
You can probably just look at the rest of the wiring coming out of the panel, if it is all tubing, then you will have to use that.

Saltcity · 02/25/2010, 07:59 AM

**NEW UPDATE**

Just wanted to say, after I got to work this morning and looked at it again, the 90amp breaker is NOT hooked up. Guess they left it there to fill the hole in the cover.
So all I have is Six 20 amp breakers and one 30 amp for the compressor. The compressor outlet was added about 10 yrs. ago and it was done by a local electrician......The wire used looks like romex but has a red, black, white and bare copper wire in its sheething(220) and is also one of the wires draped across the insulation to the outlet with no staples. This was done by a "pro".

I've done this several times in homes so I don't think it will be a problem, I just saw the stranded wire and different colors and figured I better ask some questions first.

Thanks again CWP and everyone!

rgulrich · 02/25/2010, 08:35 AM

Just as a heads-up, you might want to get a professional to look at your Federal Pacific box and seriously consider replacing it if they recommend. The home I purchased here in MD was built in 1977, and had a FP circuit panel in it. When I asked to have another line pulled for the microwave in the kitchen (the original installation had it on the same circuit as everything else in the kitchen…), the electrician wouldn’t pull another 20 amp circuit until the box was replaced. He first told me about a series of problems with the Federal Pacific panels like the one I had, and then told me that they wouldn’t be able to find any replacement breakers to fit. Got a few estimates with the same story.

Apparently there were a number of incidents with the FP breakers not working and causing fires. Do a Google search for “Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) Electrical Hazards Website” and read the info. I do know that a few of the 20 amp breakers in that box were apparently overloaded and weren’t breaking; the new breakers did work and we checked the load after the new installation when they popped.

New panel works great. Wallet not so much, but I do sleep better.
Cheers,
Ray

02/24/2010, 05:34 PM	#2
HarrsCars Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Ephrata WA. Posts: 128	I am not an electrican but do glorified diy electrical..... You want to use one of your breakers on the main panel to wire your fish room???? Is this right??? How many outlets??? What is total load under power??? Do you really want all your plug-ins on one breaker???? What happens if it trips and you are not home or dont notice it???? Just my two cents there? Dont worry somewhere here is a real electrican that will ask way harder questions than me. LOL I wired in a sub panel to my fish room and put in 12 extra circuits some are dedicated to just one plug. This allowed me to kill power on some items but leave others running so the whole fish room does not go down and all is lost. More power than I will every need but I am ready for any future upgrades. "A breaker box is a breaker box and I'm over analyzing it....!?!?!" Not when it comes to electricity and water. Shockingly Mike __________________ The cost of live rock.5.99lb The cost of a custom 300 gal wall install.10k The look on your wifes face when she forgets the tank window is up and she's on display to the neighborhood..PRICELESS Current Tank Info: 300 gallon 3 by 400 XM MRC Beckett Skimmer Mrc-6 Calcium Reactor Custom cover on tank and elevator going to fish room.

02/24/2010, 08:09 PM	#14
THE GIMP Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Fullerton, California Posts: 694	I think what you are asking is it to code. Commercial or industrial applications require MC or conduit. Romex is only for residential uses. I would run 12/3 MC because it is the same amount of work as running 12/2 MC. Even if you do not anticipate using it today, you will wish you did. You could also pull new #12's in existing conduit if there is room and if it goes to the same area you are planning to put the fish room. I am pretty sure that your panel is a basic single phase 120/220 volt, 200 amp. If it was 3 phase you would have blue wires as well. Purple wire is usually used as a switch leg, well, in So cal anyways. A previous electrician prolly used that because he had it. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it is used as a hot and not a neutral. "High-Leg" are a commercial use thing and is usually in orange, well, in So cal anyways. Federal Pacific Panels are not the best but if it has not given you problems I would not worry about it. Make sure that there is enough room on that panel. Not just open space for a breaker, but available amperage. If you can't find a local electrician, maybe ask your HVAC guy if he knows anyone. Too funny Chris, Tweekers doing electrical work is never a good combination, lol. __________________ AKA: Brando The Electrizian We're gonna need a bigger boat... If its not tied up or in a cage, I'll need a stick! Who is John Galt? Current Tank Info: 180 BB, ATB med ext, 2 Vortechs, Life Reef CARX, RKE, T5

02/24/2010, 08:37 PM	#16
CWP Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 123	Some of what you say is true, but not all. Romex can be used in certain commercial applications, dependent upon what the building is used for and what the maximum occupancy is, at least in Florida. As for orange being used as a stinger leg, that is true in many places, including Florida. When I worked in Houston, however, they used purple for "B" phase of all high voltage, not just open delta stinger legs. So it's not valid to say that you can only use mc, bx, or conduit in every commercial application, which is why I asked about the use of romex throughout the building. That's all. But I am aware of using blue as the "C" phase of 3 phase 120/208 Wye systems. Obviously codes change from state to state, but in Florida we follow the 2005 NEC, at least from what I've heard. Perhaps they have adopted the 2008 code, but our state government often lags behind the national code a few years. As for running a 12-3 cable, that will not work with a GFI properly. I don't know why that is, but a shared neutral causes GFCI's to trip. I'm sure someone knows the in's and out's of it. Getting help would be a good idea. Good luck. And you are right about Tweekers and electrical work. Somehow, though, they never seem to blow themselves up. I could make millions writing down all the things I've seen doing service work, but nobody would believe me. Last edited by CWP; 02/24/2010 at 09:36 PM.

02/24/2010, 11:54 PM	#22
THE GIMP Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Fullerton, California Posts: 694	Most of my answers to questions like these on venues such as these, I try to leave out allot of information and constrain my answers with the safety of the novice in mind. I also give general directions, leaving many of the exceptions out of the solution and suggest a sort of 'one size fits all' answer, since most of it is out of their concern or ability. With that in mind, I should have taken my previous answer and twiddled it down to something like Mr. Paul B's answer. You'll be fine Saltcity! Good Luck! __________________ AKA: Brando The Electrizian We're gonna need a bigger boat... If its not tied up or in a cage, I'll need a stick! Who is John Galt? Current Tank Info: 180 BB, ATB med ext, 2 Vortechs, Life Reef CARX, RKE, T5

02/24/2010, 05:08 PM	#1
Saltcity Moved On Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 4,297	Need an electricians Input... Federal Pacific Box I'm going to run a dedicated line to my in wall fish tank at my office. The box is a Federal Pacific L120-40 and it looks pretty standard compared to my houses electric box. The thing that is confusing me is that the wire used for this building (built in 1978) is stranded copper and there are different colors.... Red, Black, White and a few Greens and one Purple. It looks like all the different strands run up the Conduit with no protection, I guess because its a metal building with conduit out in the shop area. I'm guessing the different colors were a way to keep things organized and know what goes to which area of the building!? My question is, The breakers look like normal 20amp breakers. Can I just run normal 12-2 from the breaker over to the fish "room" ??? Without conduit all the way? I guess what I'm looking for is to hear "A breaker box is a breaker box and I'm over analyzing it....!?!?!"

02/24/2010, 05:42 PM	#3
Saltcity Moved On Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 4,297	Well, no.. There is already one circuit over there with only 2 plugs on it..That will run my heaters. I will run a dedicated line for my lighting and Hydor wavemaker and I will also be running another dedicated line with 4 plugs and a GFI down in the sump area. I just wanted to simplify it for discussion. Thanks for caring though!! Thats what makes this site great...

02/24/2010, 05:54 PM	#4
Chris27 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 4,452	How exactly are you going about it, are you pulling a line off your existing breaker box, or are you going to use the line coming into the house? Basically a breaker box is a breaker box, and wire selection is directly related to the amount of current you plan on drawing. Determine how many breakers you will be using in the new box, add up the current, and then pick your supply wire. For example, if you plan on using 10 15amp breakers, the wire supplying the box should be 0 AWG - from that point on it's ok to use 12-2.

02/24/2010, 05:55 PM	#5
Greysoul Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 158	I have a good electrical background, I've wired many shops and a house or two.... My best answer is "Maybe" and you should find a local electrician to help you. FWIW in the US the color codes denote: Red/black = hot - Usually if it's one or the other it's 120 volts, if it's both then each one is a 120v leg of a 220v circuit. White = neutral Green = ground Orange = wild phase (208v) The purple line could be for 3 phase power, it could be a second hot, could be anything really. Usually purple is a third phase, but it could be a lighting circuit, a control, a separate GFCI ground... no telling without seeing it and testing it. Hire a local. I bet your LFS has an electrician as a customer they can hook you up with. -Doug

02/24/2010, 06:28 PM	#7
rwing Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 21	The simple way to do this is to follow the wires coming into your box and see which one or color is connected to the breakers. That is your hot line....the neutral line will be connected to the box somewhere. You can run 20 amps through 12-2 wire. The easy way to determine your amp load is to divide total watts by volts. For example if you had a 1000 watt hair dryer plugged into a 120 volt outlet it would be drawing approx. 8 amps. As long as you don't overload your wire with more amps than it's rated for you should be fine. I recommend using a volt meter just to be on the safe side when working with electricity....you just can't be too safe. That said, it's a really simple job that you shouldn't have any trouble with. Hope this helps.

02/24/2010, 06:42 PM	#8
CWP Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 123	In some places, the purple wire is used as a high leg, (stinger leg) and is not a normal 120 volt line, but 240 volts. They were used in the past as a means to save electricity on equipment, and still exist in some places. What would happen is the house would be normal 120/240 volt, and the stinger leg was dedicated for equipment, most notably 3 phase air conditioning and heating systems. The reason is that 3 phase equipment is more efficient than single phase, much like running a metal halide is more efficient when it is hooked up 240 volts than 120 volts. That being said, it could have been retrofitted along the way and is only 120 volts, but that must be determined using a volt-meter. As for the conduit, certain commercial building require metal conduit, although not all do. All wiring (according to the code) must be in conduit if it is exposed less than 8 feet off the ground, even if it is a residential application. So all of those sheds out there with bare romex stapled to a stud are not code. Of course, if the wire is in covered by sheetrock, it does not need to be in conduit. Getting back to your situation: if there is no romex in your building, don't use romex. Buy 12/2 mc cable, also found at your local hardware store. If there is some romex in the building, run romex but sleeve the wire in some kind of conduit, either metal or grey pvc, at least up to 8 feet off the ground. That will cover the code. As for hooking it up to your panel, make sure that you are hooking it up to a 120 volt circuit. If the purple is a high leg, you should be able to tell because every third space in your panel will either be empty, or have a 2 - 3 pole breaker on it, like the kind you would have for a stove. Of course, having an electrician is always a good idea, and the suggestion of finding one through your local LFS is a great idea. I hope I haven't confused you more, and I hope you understand that it is best to get someone knowledgeable to help you. Hope this helped.

02/24/2010, 06:57 PM	#11
CWP Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 123	You only need to protect the wire in an exposed wall. In the attic, it's no problem. And if you put sheetrock or paneling on the wall the wire is coming down, you don't need to protect it. The idea is that romex can be damaged easily and needs protection. Glad I didn't confuse you. For what it's worth, mc cable is just like romex except instead of a plastic sheath, it has a metal casing. It's used all the time in commercial applications in place of conduit because it's easy to work with. And you're right, wire just running across the attic with no staples is not code, but I can promise you that 90% of the homes I have been in (and commercial buildings too) have less strapping than is code. Generally, the original work is done to code, but everyone that comes in later to add circuits never use enough, if any, straps.

02/24/2010, 07:32 PM	#13
CWP Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 123	No problem. Glad I could help. And I'm not surprised anymore with what happens in houses. I was in an apartment building once, and a guy took a dremel tool to cut open the conduit supplying power to his neighbors apartment and used coat hangers tied together as wire to steal power. He damn near burned the entire complex down. There were two burn marks under the wire where it was burning into the rafters. And it worked. The only way I found out was by doing a job completely unrelated where I had to crawl through this other guys attic. True story. After that, nothing surprises me. Good luck, and if you need more help, feel free to send me a message. Regards, Chris

02/24/2010, 09:44 PM	#18
CWP Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 123	90 amp breaker? I didn't know they came in 90 amps, but whatever. Even if it was 100 amp, having 6 20 amp circuits shouldn't make that much difference. Realistically, none of those breakers run anywhere near their full ampere rating. So it should be fine. If you don't feel comfortable, get an electrician to come by and take an amp reading with everything on. It's easier (faster) than having them perform a load calculation, even though that's not difficult, just somewhat time consuming. The truth is that no circuit should ever have more than 80% of it rated ampacity ever. When they do approach that maximum, frequently breakers start getting warm and "things" happen, such as wearing out receptacles, lights flickering, and so on. As for multiple breakers feeding one receptacle, that's not happening. Perhaps that box is being used to feed through to other circuits in the house, but that would be it. The most you could have is 2 circuits feeding 1 receptacle; this is usually only found, if at all, on temporary poles on job sites. This is because some equipment draws excessive amounts of power, such as big air compressors.

02/24/2010, 10:02 PM	#19
Saltcity Moved On Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 4,297	I promise its a 90 amp. Its the size of a double breaker...not sure of the technical term, but it takes up two spots. This was install back in 85ish so maybe they just combine everything back in the day and threw it on a huge breaker!!

02/24/2010, 10:24 PM	#20
CWP Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 123	I'm sure it exists, it's just rare. Generally, someone would use a 100 amp breaker. It's probably for a sub-panel, but it could be for a heating unit. Sometimes an electrician will run a large wire to a heating unit and then have separate breakers for the heat strips, the motor, and a sump pump or convenience outlet. At least that's all I can think of being in a house. Nevertheless, it shouldn't change what you're trying to do. I think you will have no problems, but if you are concerned, definitely consult with an electrician or get your hands on an amp meter. It can be used to determine how much load you have on your panel. What has probably happened is that the house had a 100 amp service, and when the shop was added on, they put in a larger service (200 amps) to feed both the house and the shop. It's pretty common when houses are added onto or central heating is added to a house.

02/24/2010, 10:38 PM	#21
Saltcity Moved On Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 4,297	Ok... I appreciate all the help. Now comes the fun work!! wish me luck....

02/25/2010, 07:59 AM	#24
Saltcity Moved On Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 4,297	NEW UPDATE Just wanted to say, after I got to work this morning and looked at it again, the 90amp breaker is NOT hooked up. Guess they left it there to fill the hole in the cover. So all I have is Six 20 amp breakers and one 30 amp for the compressor. The compressor outlet was added about 10 yrs. ago and it was done by a local electrician......The wire used looks like romex but has a red, black, white and bare copper wire in its sheething(220) and is also one of the wires draped across the insulation to the outlet with no staples. This was done by a "pro". I've done this several times in homes so I don't think it will be a problem, I just saw the stranded wire and different colors and figured I better ask some questions first. Thanks again CWP and everyone!

02/25/2010, 08:35 AM	#25
rgulrich greybeard Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: MD Posts: 893	Just as a heads-up, you might want to get a professional to look at your Federal Pacific box and seriously consider replacing it if they recommend. The home I purchased here in MD was built in 1977, and had a FP circuit panel in it. When I asked to have another line pulled for the microwave in the kitchen (the original installation had it on the same circuit as everything else in the kitchen…), the electrician wouldn’t pull another 20 amp circuit until the box was replaced. He first told me about a series of problems with the Federal Pacific panels like the one I had, and then told me that they wouldn’t be able to find any replacement breakers to fit. Got a few estimates with the same story. Apparently there were a number of incidents with the FP breakers not working and causing fires. Do a Google search for “Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) Electrical Hazards Website” and read the info. I do know that a few of the 20 amp breakers in that box were apparently overloaded and weren’t breaking; the new breakers did work and we checked the load after the new installation when they popped. New panel works great. Wallet not so much, but I do sleep better. Cheers, Ray