problems with nitrate and calcuim

waelaase · 03/03/2010, 03:50 AM

Hello,
i have a 400 liter aquarium, it's 2 months old now
i'm having problems with high nitrates (20) that is kept at this value for a month now
also i'm having low calcium values (340 and up to 360)
i do a 8% water change weekly and dose calcium weekly
the tank parameters are
Ammonia = 0
nitrite = 0
Ph = 8.2
KH = 11
PO4 < 0.25

also i have a dust like on the sand (it's color between brown and grey)

here is a link to the tank data
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1797109

thank you

spw4949 · 03/03/2010, 07:42 AM

Starting with the algae(I'm assuming that's what the dust like substance on your substrate is, sounds like diatoms...), your tank is still immature & new tanks can & usually do go through a few algae blooms in the first 6 monts or so of existance, with that being said the phosphate & nitrate are definately not helping. I would suggest doing a series of large water changes(about 1/3), 3 days apart(3 or 4 of them) to bring down your nitrates, as far as the phosphates go I would run some sort of phosphate removing media to get rid of them, I personally think that GFO (granular ferric oxide) works very well........as far as calcium is concerned if you want to raise it(do you have any corals??) then just increase your frequency of dosing, try 2 times a week for a few weeks, if that doesn't work go to 3 times a week, etc.......HTH

waelaase · 03/03/2010, 08:58 AM

Hello,
thank you for the reply
regarding the dust thing, i guess it's not an algae cause if i move my hand near the rocks it moves like dust
also i did not get any algae blooms in the tank
for the phosphates it's between 0 and 0.25 and this is the lowest number i can measure
i have only mushrooms in the tank for now
i'll try the water changes this week and dosing more calcium
also i tested the water i use (ro/di and adding salt) and calcium is 400, nitrates is 0, and phosphate is 0
thank you

Chiefsurfer · 03/03/2010, 09:23 AM

big thing to watch for. For any calcium additive to effectively raise the calcium level, you must have your magnesium at the right level. Too high or too low, it will not ever be right no matter what dosing you do.

IslandCrow · 03/03/2010, 11:16 AM

Your calcium may be precipitating. I'm afraid I'm at work right now (yeah, it's a slow day), so I can't see your pictures. As Chiefsurfer said, this may be because of low magnesium. Basically, calcium is fully saturated in seawater somewhere around 360ppm. Through some chemical process I really don't understand, the magnesium allows you to maintain higher levels of calcium without it coming out of solution. Therefore, if you magnesium gets too low, you reach your limit for calcium faster. . .or at least that's how I understand it.

Nitrates are generally a symptom of either overfeeding, overstocking, or insufficient nutrient export (e.g. water changes, protein skimmer, etc.). In a newer tank, it really may not be your fault, as there's probably still some die-off in the live rock and your de-nitrifying bacteria population may not be up to par yet.

w16227 · 03/03/2010, 12:43 PM

you only have mushrooms?

No need to worry about calcium. Do not dose for this as nothing in your tank is using this.

Your tank is very young- having run for less than a month - your other thread shows pics of filling on February 2nd - with live rock added on February 11th. Even if this was fully cured from a known source - there could have been dieoff.

You stated that you reused sand from another tank. This is never recommended as it disturbed the bacterial layers and allows for some nasty stuff to be released in your tank. Unlike FW, it is usually not a good thing to vacuum/stir up the sand bed.

You also have a LOT of fish in that thank -

1 Maroon Clownfish
1 Barrier Reef Clownfish (Amphiprion akindynos)
1 REGAL TANG (paracanthurus hepatus)
1 Red Sea Sohal Tang (Acanthurus sohal)
2 SAILFIN TANG (zebrasoma desjardinii)
1 Panther Grouper (Cromileptes altivelis)

Four tangs and a grouper? This is a huge bioload on a tank that never finished cycling.

So - now for questions and recommendations. Some of which you may not like - but they will be critical for the long term success of your tank.

Skimmer - what kind is that? There are very few "hang on" skimmers that can handle a 100g+ tank (conversion has yours as 105g). This may be very underpowered adding to the nitrate levels.

Additional filtration - you say in the other thread that you have some other filtration - what exactly? Live rock/reef tanks usually only need the rock and skimmer. A fuge with macro algae also helps with Nitrate export. If you have no room for a fuge (they have ones that hang on the back of the tank as well) -- then you will have to limit stock in the tank.

dosing - stop with the calcium this is doing you no good and may be precipitating into the tank. Nothing in your setup needs calcium.

Do not dose anything that you cannot prove a need for --- just because a fish store tells you to - or someone else is doing it does not mean it is right for your tank.

Livestock - you are WAY overstocked for a tank that is less than a month old- and you have way too many large fish. In a 6' long 125, is may be possible to house 2-3 tangs and not have complications depending on the specific fish. Your specific fish are not suited to your tank at all. (all tank sizes from liveaquaria)

Panther grouper - needs minimum 300 gallon tank.
Sohal tang - needs 180 gallon minimum tank
2 x sailfin tangs - minimum 125gallon tank
1 regal tang - minimum 70 gallons

Of your tang collection - only ONE is suited for your tank- and the grouper is WAY out of line. These are only one source for tank MINIMUMS. Minimum = fish may be ok and thrive. Under minimum = fish will be stressed and bad things WILL happen; fighting, disease, large scale chemical issues that no amount of filtration can solve

You will probably be reduced to one sailfin soon. Multiple tangs of the same body shape generally do not get along. A fight to the death is the most likely outcome.

Remove all but the regal and the clownfish for now. If you keep the other fish, then there will be no real way for anyone to help you as the most likely cause for any chemical issues will be the overstocking of your tank.

IslandCrow · 03/04/2010, 09:40 AM

Good words from w16227. Probably right along the lines of what I would have said if I'd taken the time to follow your link and get more info on your tank. It's sometimes difficult to hear, and we all make mistakes, so take it as the helpful advice it's intended to be. I know all of us who have been around this forum for awhile have heard stories of people getting out of the hobby because the frustration got to be too much. The sad part is, it's almost always preventable, so it's always good when these problems are caught early.

03/03/2010, 03:50 AM	#1
waelaase Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Egypt Posts: 128	problems with nitrate and calcuim Hello, i have a 400 liter aquarium, it's 2 months old now i'm having problems with high nitrates (20) that is kept at this value for a month now also i'm having low calcium values (340 and up to 360) i do a 8% water change weekly and dose calcium weekly the tank parameters are Ammonia = 0 nitrite = 0 Ph = 8.2 KH = 11 PO4 < 0.25 also i have a dust like on the sand (it's color between brown and grey) here is a link to the tank data http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1797109 thank you

03/03/2010, 07:42 AM	#2
spw4949 Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Albany, N.Y. Posts: 1,594	Starting with the algae(I'm assuming that's what the dust like substance on your substrate is, sounds like diatoms...), your tank is still immature & new tanks can & usually do go through a few algae blooms in the first 6 monts or so of existance, with that being said the phosphate & nitrate are definately not helping. I would suggest doing a series of large water changes(about 1/3), 3 days apart(3 or 4 of them) to bring down your nitrates, as far as the phosphates go I would run some sort of phosphate removing media to get rid of them, I personally think that GFO (granular ferric oxide) works very well........as far as calcium is concerned if you want to raise it(do you have any corals??) then just increase your frequency of dosing, try 2 times a week for a few weeks, if that doesn't work go to 3 times a week, etc.......HTH __________________ Steve Current Tank Info: 46 gal bowfront, mixed reef, 2x250W current outer orbit w/4x39W T5 ,10 gal fuge....38 gallon aggressive FOWLR, 10 gallon sump.

03/03/2010, 09:23 AM	#4
Chiefsurfer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Seaside Park, NJ Posts: 2,138	big thing to watch for. For any calcium additive to effectively raise the calcium level, you must have your magnesium at the right level. Too high or too low, it will not ever be right no matter what dosing you do. __________________ Chief Current Tank: 20 Gallon tall, 4-bulb t5 HO, Eshopps psk75H, ac-70 fuge. So far, green clown goby, striped goby, more gorillas than I wish I had, 5 SPS frags, 3 LPS Frags, 1 Softee, Turkey Wing Clam. Plan for the future: 120 gallon 4ft glass tank. Current Tank Info: 20 gallon tall Reef Tank

03/03/2010, 11:16 AM	#5
IslandCrow Reef Monkey Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rockledge, Fl Posts: 5,759	Your calcium may be precipitating. I'm afraid I'm at work right now (yeah, it's a slow day), so I can't see your pictures. As Chiefsurfer said, this may be because of low magnesium. Basically, calcium is fully saturated in seawater somewhere around 360ppm. Through some chemical process I really don't understand, the magnesium allows you to maintain higher levels of calcium without it coming out of solution. Therefore, if you magnesium gets too low, you reach your limit for calcium faster. . .or at least that's how I understand it. Nitrates are generally a symptom of either overfeeding, overstocking, or insufficient nutrient export (e.g. water changes, protein skimmer, etc.). In a newer tank, it really may not be your fault, as there's probably still some die-off in the live rock and your de-nitrifying bacteria population may not be up to par yet. __________________ All opinions in the above message should be taken with 35 ppt salt. -Mike C. Current Tank Info: I have a reef screen saver on my phone, does that count?

03/03/2010, 12:43 PM	#6
w16227 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: chicago Burbs Posts: 479	you only have mushrooms? No need to worry about calcium. Do not dose for this as nothing in your tank is using this. Your tank is very young- having run for less than a month - your other thread shows pics of filling on February 2nd - with live rock added on February 11th. Even if this was fully cured from a known source - there could have been dieoff. You stated that you reused sand from another tank. This is never recommended as it disturbed the bacterial layers and allows for some nasty stuff to be released in your tank. Unlike FW, it is usually not a good thing to vacuum/stir up the sand bed. You also have a LOT of fish in that thank - 1 Maroon Clownfish 1 Barrier Reef Clownfish (Amphiprion akindynos) 1 REGAL TANG (paracanthurus hepatus) 1 Red Sea Sohal Tang (Acanthurus sohal) 2 SAILFIN TANG (zebrasoma desjardinii) 1 Panther Grouper (Cromileptes altivelis) Four tangs and a grouper? This is a huge bioload on a tank that never finished cycling. So - now for questions and recommendations. Some of which you may not like - but they will be critical for the long term success of your tank. Skimmer - what kind is that? There are very few "hang on" skimmers that can handle a 100g+ tank (conversion has yours as 105g). This may be very underpowered adding to the nitrate levels. Additional filtration - you say in the other thread that you have some other filtration - what exactly? Live rock/reef tanks usually only need the rock and skimmer. A fuge with macro algae also helps with Nitrate export. If you have no room for a fuge (they have ones that hang on the back of the tank as well) -- then you will have to limit stock in the tank. dosing - stop with the calcium this is doing you no good and may be precipitating into the tank. Nothing in your setup needs calcium. Do not dose anything that you cannot prove a need for --- just because a fish store tells you to - or someone else is doing it does not mean it is right for your tank. Livestock - you are WAY overstocked for a tank that is less than a month old- and you have way too many large fish. In a 6' long 125, is may be possible to house 2-3 tangs and not have complications depending on the specific fish. Your specific fish are not suited to your tank at all. (all tank sizes from liveaquaria) Panther grouper - needs minimum 300 gallon tank. Sohal tang - needs 180 gallon minimum tank 2 x sailfin tangs - minimum 125gallon tank 1 regal tang - minimum 70 gallons Of your tang collection - only ONE is suited for your tank- and the grouper is WAY out of line. These are only one source for tank MINIMUMS. Minimum = fish may be ok and thrive. Under minimum = fish will be stressed and bad things WILL happen; fighting, disease, large scale chemical issues that no amount of filtration can solve You will probably be reduced to one sailfin soon. Multiple tangs of the same body shape generally do not get along. A fight to the death is the most likely outcome. Remove all but the regal and the clownfish for now. If you keep the other fish, then there will be no real way for anyone to help you as the most likely cause for any chemical issues will be the overstocking of your tank. __________________ call me "w" - easier to remember Current Tank Info: 125g All Glass rr, 50g sump/fuge, RKE, T5 Retrofit Lights, Deltec Turbo Skimmer, PM Kalk Reactor

03/03/2010, 08:58 AM	#3
waelaase Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Egypt Posts: 128	Hello, thank you for the reply regarding the dust thing, i guess it's not an algae cause if i move my hand near the rocks it moves like dust also i did not get any algae blooms in the tank for the phosphates it's between 0 and 0.25 and this is the lowest number i can measure i have only mushrooms in the tank for now i'll try the water changes this week and dosing more calcium also i tested the water i use (ro/di and adding salt) and calcium is 400, nitrates is 0, and phosphate is 0 thank you

03/04/2010, 09:40 AM	#7
IslandCrow Reef Monkey Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rockledge, Fl Posts: 5,759	Good words from w16227. Probably right along the lines of what I would have said if I'd taken the time to follow your link and get more info on your tank. It's sometimes difficult to hear, and we all make mistakes, so take it as the helpful advice it's intended to be. I know all of us who have been around this forum for awhile have heard stories of people getting out of the hobby because the frustration got to be too much. The sad part is, it's almost always preventable, so it's always good when these problems are caught early. __________________ All opinions in the above message should be taken with 35 ppt salt. -Mike C. Current Tank Info: I have a reef screen saver on my phone, does that count?