Royal Gramma problem.......

[Gabby'sFish]

I am new to the hobby and with the help of some experienced friends I purchased and set up a 75 gallon salt water aquarium for my daughter. After cycling with live rock, I introduced a pair of clowns and a cleaning crew (small - just some snails and some blue and red hermits). I then introduced some shrimp (pacific cleaner and four peppermints), three chromis and a royal gramma. I then purchased a carpenter flasher wrasse and a blue tang (very small). Everything seemed to be fine. My gramma took up residence in a few caves, as they normally do, but suddenly I started to notice small parts of his tail being nipped away and he would only come out during feedings and then disappear again. Most of the fish, over the last few days have been hovering around where the gramma was and whenever he would emerge, they would chase him back. Today, when they were fed, he didn't come out and I can't seem to locate him in any of his usual caves. I am fearful that he is either dead or dying and I am not sure what to do. I was under the impression that the fish I have are mostly peaceful, but yet they seemed to be harassing the gramma quite a bit. Can anyone shed any light on this? If he doesn't come out for a few more days should I count him as deceased? Should I replace him with a slightly larger one? I haven't seen any posts regarding chromis or clowns attacking grammas, so I am hoping for a little guidance. Thanks in advance to any help or advice.

[divewsharks]

what kind of clowns do you have. almost any of them can be aggressive, some alot more than others -- so yes they could have beat up on royal gramma. If you really have chromis those are normally fine, but i have seen some LFS's mark other damselfish as chromis and they can definitely be aggressive.

[Gabby'sFish]

Ocellaris Clownfish.

The Chromis came from Liveaquaria.com. I'm assuming that they were actual chromis.

[piscivorous]

Just tagging along...I intend to have a pair of perculas with a royal gramma...so I'll be curious to read to responses. I've always read that they were fine with each other....but I guess there are always exceptions to every rule....

[L98-Z]

Originally Posted by Gabby'sFish

I am new to the hobby and with the help of some experienced friends I purchased and set up a 75 gallon salt water aquarium for my daughter. After cycling with live rock, I introduced a pair of clowns and a cleaning crew (small - just some snails and some blue and red hermits). I then introduced some shrimp (pacific cleaner and four peppermints), three chromis and a royal gramma. I then purchased a carpenter flasher wrasse and a blue tang (very small). Everything seemed to be fine. My gramma took up residence in a few caves, as they normally do, but suddenly I started to notice small parts of his tail being nipped away and he would only come out during feedings and then disappear again. Most of the fish, over the last few days have been hovering around where the gramma was and whenever he would emerge, they would chase him back. Today, when they were fed, he didn't come out and I can't seem to locate him in any of his usual caves. I am fearful that he is either dead or dying and I am not sure what to do. I was under the impression that the fish I have are mostly peaceful, but yet they seemed to be harassing the gramma quite a bit. Can anyone shed any light on this? If he doesn't come out for a few more days should I count him as deceased? Should I replace him with a slightly larger one? I haven't seen any posts regarding chromis or clowns attacking grammas, so I am hoping for a little guidance. Thanks in advance to any help or advice.

From my experience... clowns should never be considered peaceful. Especially if they're a mated pair. The mother will always defend her area. Some are worse than others in terms of their aggressiveness.

Secondly, tangs should never be considered peaceful either. I realize many will disagree with this. Many times you never have a problem with tangs except towards other similar tangs/fish. However, if they decide they hate another fish, they will pester/attack it until no end.


My luck with Chromis has shown them to be pretty safe except towards one another. I do believe your flasher wrasse is 100% safe though.

Chances are your Royal Gramma will die if not removed from the tank or the fish constantly attacking him removed.

[bkaradza]

I have royal grama together with clowns, tangs, damsels, blenys and noone atack her and she was small gramma when she come in aquarium so it's realy strange that someone atack gramma usualy she atack other fishes. Myne atack tang when he come near cave where she stays...

[Chiefsurfer]

well BOTH clowns and Chromis ARE in the Damsel family. By no means would I ever consider them sissy's. Also, the clowns being ocellaris, and chromis, I would not think they would intentionally be on the attack. I have never heard of THAT stocking-list being detrimental to the Gramma. Maybe you have a sissy Gramma. I have no way of knowing this, but with other animals, such as dogs, cats, etc. they can "sense" when there is something "wrong" with them, such as a birth defect in their young, and so on. MAYBE something like this is happening?

It especially seems wierd because the chromis were added at the same time. I would say you pose a pretty sizeable threat if the clowns and chromis were in there for a few weeks, and THEN you added the gramma, as the clowns and chromis could have already claimed the whole tank as their territory.

Is his "cave" near the clowns territory? Are the clowns young and immature, or are they an aged mated pair? If they are a pair, and are getting ready to lay eggs, they will/can get SUPER nasty with anything. Chromis may be ganging up just to get their "share" of the flesh.

Ps, you may want to ditch 3 of those chromis, they have been known to dwindle the "pack" down until there are only 2 or 1 left.

[Gabby'sFish]

They Gramma's cave isn't near the Clowns territory. And they are an immature yet mated pair.

[Vin7250]

how long has your tank been set up... that seems heavily stocked for a new tank

[Gabby'sFish]

Originally Posted by Vin7250

how long has your tank been set up... that seems heavily stocked for a new tank

About two months. The tank was set up with live sand and rock and cycled in a week. The first two fish were introduced two weeks after cycling. The next group was introduced three weeks later. The next two were introduced 2 weeks later.

[Vin7250]

well as a side note (probably not your issue) SLOW down. Nothing comes good in this hobby from rushing. I find it hard to believe a true robust cycle was finished in a week, but that is up for debate as I have not tested your water myself. Do yourself a favor though and slow down. Have you tested your water parameters lately? I wouldnt be suprized to see you have ammonia or nitrite or something like that that is possibly stressing the gramma out. Your tank is still new and immature and you have a pretty heavily stocked setup so far.

[Gabby'sFish]

Originally Posted by Vin7250

well as a side note (probably not your issue) SLOW down. Nothing comes good in this hobby from rushing. I find it hard to believe a true robust cycle was finished in a week, but that is up for debate as I have not tested your water myself. Do yourself a favor though and slow down. Have you tested your water parameters lately? I wouldnt be suprized to see you have ammonia or nitrite or something like that that is possibly stressing the gramma out. Your tank is still new and immature and you have a pretty heavily stocked setup so far.

Thank you for the advice, as I said earlier, my friends who have had tanks for years have really held my hand through the process. They have made me continue to test the tank every few weeks. I tested the tank over the last weekend....all of which came back with exceptable test numbers.

Also, I don't plan on adding anything to the tank at this point for a few months other than some coral frags which won't effect the bioload.

[Gabby'sFish]

Originally Posted by Gabby'sFish

Thank you for the advice, as I said earlier, my friends who have had tanks for years have really held my hand through the process. They have made me continue to test the tank every few weeks. I tested the tank over the last weekend....all of which came back with exceptable test numbers.

Also, I don't plan on adding anything to the tank at this point for a few months other than some coral frags which won't effect the bioload.

Also on a side note, the live rock I used came out of someone's tank which was leaking and the person wanted to get of it. It never dried out, it was kept in warm circulating water before it was put in my tank. This might explain why my cycle was so fast.

[bwiele]

There's a very clear mindset on the board about people going very slowly. Depending how how you start up your tank, my own experience suggests this slow approach may or may not apply. For example, I started my 90gal tank with 100 lbs of fully cured live rock that was out of the water for only a few hours before it got into my tank. I also put in about 3" of live sand. In order to keep the bacteria on the live rock "fed", I started adding livestock (both corals and fish) pretty much right away. I have steadily added more fish and corals, to the point where 2 months after starting the tank I have about 12 fish and at least as many corals. I have a 20 gallon sump, a Deltec skimmer, and BRS reactors for GFO and Carbon. My water parameters have been from the start: Ammonia, Nitirite, Nitrate, phosphate: 0/undetectable. My mg was on the low side a month into things, so I supplemented to get it back in the 1,400 range, then started dosing BRS 2-part. My Alk is consistently in the mid 9's (dKH) and my Ca wrapped around 450 (+/- 20). I maintain my salinity at 1.025-1.027 depending on my top-up schedule (I haven't gone the ATO route YET, but expect to soon). I test my params every few days (still trying to understand how my tank behaves) and change 15-20% of water about every 2 weeks.

My fish are all healthy and eating. I feared I lost my yellow goby a few days ago, which would have been my first loss, but then I found in yesterday in my overflow box! I also thought I lost my pistol shrimp (which I've had for about 6 months, having moved it from a small tank that I kept in the kitchen). I found small pieces of him scattered about, which could have been a molt, but I stopped hearing him "snap". Then I started hearing him again - he must've been laying low after his molt, or maybe he was still growing back the new snappers.

I am a relative new-comer here and not a frequent poster. I don't want to make the mistake of coming across as being too strong or pretending to be authority on *anything* related to this hobby. I'm just trying to suggest that there is an alternative approach to getting started, which is clearly more expensive, and involves buying most of the full equipment list up front rather than over time. But I haven't had to deal with any issues at all related to an algae bloom, diatoms, cyano, hair algae, etc. I am conscientious and read a lot of information, mostly on RC, so I can plan and anticipate things. I have read Eric Borneman's book "Corals" prettty much cover to cover. I generally can't offer much insight on RC, so I don't post often.

So what do you guys think, am I off my rocker, or is there really an alternative scenario which may be a little less painful than what some people endure?

And please don't completely flame me!

PS

Having written all this, I'm expecting that I'll probably get home tonight to find my tank has completely crashed, is covered with green hair algae and cyano and everything has melted! Then I'll have gotten my just deserts!

[Chiefsurfer]

no, much of what you have done is completely viable. If you start with cured rock, that comes loaded with bacteria, and there is very short time between tanks, there is no problem doing what you have done.

[Bayliner]

This is a very interesting thread for me as I am in a similar position.
I have two ocilaris clowns and two chromis as well. I just added a Royal Gramma on Saturday and have not seen it since.

Keep us updated on how things turn out.

Thanks,
Cam

[Alkor]

I have a similar story. I have a 75g tank that is about 1 year old. I added a chromis, one false clown, firefish and then a royal gramma (over the course of several months). They got along fine for about three months, then I started noticing pieces of the gramma's tail missing. I never saw any fish acting aggressively toward the gramma, but now, a couple of months later, he has no tail at all. He hides all day in the rocks, and only comes out at feeding time. I feel very bad for him.

I have three emerald crabs (at least I did, I haven't seen them in four months). I was wondering if they could be eating the gramma's tail?

All the other fish are fine (no missing parts).

[Gabby'sFish]

Originally Posted by Bayliner

This is a very interesting thread for me as I am in a similar position.
I have two ocilaris clowns and two chromis as well. I just added a Royal Gramma on Saturday and have not seen it since.

Keep us updated on how things turn out.

Thanks,
Cam

Will do Bayliner.

[Gabby'sFish]

Originally Posted by Alkor

I have a similar story. I have a 75g tank that is about 1 year old. I added a chromis, one false clown, firefish and then a royal gramma (over the course of several months). They got along fine for about three months, then I started noticing pieces of the gramma's tail missing. I never saw any fish acting aggressively toward the gramma, but now, a couple of months later, he has no tail at all. He hides all day in the rocks, and only comes out at feeding time. I feel very bad for him.

I have three emerald crabs (at least I did, I haven't seen them in four months). I was wondering if they could be eating the gramma's tail?

All the other fish are fine (no missing parts).

That was my first thought, but all I have are blue and red hermits and peppermint and cleaner shrimp. I thought about a hitchhiker of some kind nipping at his tail, but I haven't put any corals in yet. The live rock had some snails in it, but as far as crabs...nothing.

My big question is starting to be, can I even replace the royal gramma at this point? Maybe get a large one? I don't know........

[mthomp]

the majority of your hitch hikers are going to come from your LR not your coral. there will be some hitch hikers on your coral but i think most people dip them before introducing them to their tank to rid them of any pest.

if you suspect a hitch hiker your best bet is to wait till lights are out for a couple hours. and do a scan of your tank with a flashlight, preferably with a red lens. you will be surprised with what you will see.

[Vin7250]

You guys have to remember one thing... you are correct in saying that there are multiple methods to starting a tank, but as a general rule of thumb most people in the "new to the hobby" forum are just that, newbies. Most dont have the resources nor the time to go out and get a tank full of precured rock that comes to them withotu being out of the water for more than an hour that will have little to no die off. Most dont go out and purchase the rock, a DSB, skimmer, fuge, etc all set up and ready to go. For the most part telling someone to start slowly is the best advice anyone can give or receive.
what works for me may not work for you, but IMO even if I purchesed 100lbs of the best cured LR and sand etc....i still would allow my tank to mature for a while before adding anything to it. The ocean is such a delicate balance created by whomever or whatever (lets not get into that topic lol!) but it was not created in a day. Have patients it will pay off.

[Gabby'sFish]

Originally Posted by Bayliner

This is a very interesting thread for me as I am in a similar position.
I have two ocilaris clowns and two chromis as well. I just added a Royal Gramma on Saturday and have not seen it since.

Keep us updated on how things turn out.

Thanks,
Cam

Just an update, third straight day with the gramma not feeding......not good.

[Bayliner]

Sorry to hear that Gabby'sFish,
So you can see him swimming around ?
I am at 4 days without even seeing mine...

[Chiefsurfer]

^don't get tooooo excited about either not seeing your fish, or your fish not eating. As new introductions, they CAN get skiddish and hide for quite some time, and end up alright.

Gabby, I wish you the best of luck. Have you seen your fish still picking on him? Is he coming out at all?

[Gabby'sFish]

Originally Posted by Chiefsurfer

^don't get tooooo excited about either not seeing your fish, or your fish not eating. As new introductions, they CAN get skiddish and hide for quite some time, and end up alright.

Gabby, I wish you the best of luck. Have you seen your fish still picking on him? Is he coming out at all?

He was in the tank for about 3 weeks with no problem. He would come out of his tank when the lights were on and he would eat and socialize a little. Then he would dart back in his cave for a while. That is until the fish started to harass him.

Unfortunately, last night, I saw skeletal remains. So my Gramma is a gonner. It's very upsetting. I know they're not expensive but I just hate to see a fish go.