Mini Cycles and my fish

travis32 · 04/01/2010, 07:30 AM

After having some detectable ammonia last night, I'm paranoid I am going to be going through some mini cycles everytime I add fish now. I hope not.

My fish were no where to be seen this morning. Pretty typical of the blenny to disappear when the lights are out. My grama usually is darting in and out of the rock in the morning, I hope it's just asleep.

I've requested my fish order that was supposed to ship today, to be delayed to next Friday at the earliest. No sense in taxing the bio load right now when it's already stressed.

Also I noticed my most recent feather duster moved.. Can feather dusters move on their own? Or is it a sign that it's going dead?

My old feather duster I've had for 5 or 6 weeks, is doing fine. I'll retest everything when I get home today..

If ammonia is detected, how long should it take to go down? 2 or 3 days or more?

Thanks!

Chiefsurfer · 04/01/2010, 07:41 AM

if you read anything above .50, do WC's to bring it down.

Something likely has happened to a large thing, like a fish or invert dying, because if properly cycled, you should show no measurable cycles REALLY. I mean go and throw 12 fish in, sure, but with the addition of a single fish or coral, it should not happen.

travis32 · 04/01/2010, 07:49 AM

Was two fish, I fed relatively heavily to insure everyone got fed, but, not any more heavy than if I'd be feeding 3 maybe 4 fish.

Only two fish in there and they weren't dead last night. Both were active and healthy.

One of my larger snails looked like it might be dieing last night, it looked all scrunched and was unmoving. Looked how it usually looks with the lights off, but, I looked this morning and he moved and was moving, so, he decided to take an early nap...

Other than the lightfoot I didn't see anything "big" dieing or int he process of dieing. Other than the brine shrimp I've been feeding. Maybe just over feeding over 3 or 4 days caused a slight spike?

So, I guess it's a pretty good idea to cancelt he order for my 2 marine betas and signal goby? It would have really worked well for me to receive the fish tomorrow, but, not at the expense of crashing my tank. LOL.

Chiefsurfer · 04/01/2010, 08:02 AM

if you had any ammonia, I would cancel that order. If they can postpone it, that's fine. 2 weeks should be fine, just keep testing. Once you have a fair sized bacteria colony, ammonia spikes should be processed much faster than during a cycle when the bacteria population is relatively low.

spw4949 · 04/01/2010, 08:10 AM

If your tank is cycled & your seeing ammonia I would guess that you are overfeeding, what do you feed? How much? & how often? In an established aquarium with 80#'s of LR you should not see an ammonia spike from the addition of 2 fish.........I would def do a water change & you could also use some amquel to detoxify the ammonia....

travis32 · 04/01/2010, 08:21 AM

I'm feeding brine. I was feeding twice a day, but, my grama never came out to feed in the morning. So, I stopped that. Just feeding when I get home from work now.

I have premixed a small piece of frozen brine with aquarium water. Threw it in the fridge in a sealed baggie in a plastic container. I do about a half squirt from a turkey baster.

I'm getting closer to feeding only what my grama eats in the matter of a minute or so. vs. just putting a half turkey baster full all in at once then seeing the food float away from the fish and the fish never gets it.

My lightfoot was loving it until he died-- if he died. He went nuts for the brine.

I never thought of this, but, could having the brine mixed with aquarium water in the fridge be decaying? This is how I assumed one would feed brine.

spw4949 · 04/01/2010, 08:35 AM

That's a possibility, I feed frozen cubes, I defrost them, soak all the liquid up with a paper towel, soak the food in vitamins, then feed with a toothpick, I kind of scoop the food out with a toothpick & feed the tank what all the fish can eat in about 45sec. or so......

IslandCrow · 04/01/2010, 08:43 AM

To ensure some learning comes from this experience, could you tell us a little about how you initially cycled the tank? As stated, adding a reasonable number of fish (and two in a 55g is perfectly reasonable) should not cause an ammonia spike in a properly cycled tank. . .even with moderately excessive feeding. Also, tell us a little about your filtration, especially the amount of live rock you're using (assuming that's what you're using for biofiltration, of course).

As a side note, brine shrimp is not very nutritious, especially adult brine shrimp. If it's been enriched, it's not too bad, but there are many other foods that are much better. Mysis is a good choice, along with a host of other dry and frozen foods.

travis32 · 04/01/2010, 08:56 AM

Yeah, I planned on getting mysis. The one LFS didn't carry mysis they only carried frozen brine. I need to research other stores and see if they have any mysis. I got the smallest pack of brine I could get.

Some are familiar with my startup process. But, here it is in a nutshell.

I got 16 pounds of rock that had been curing in an isolated tank for 2 months. It was from a owner that had too much rock for his 90g and he threw it in a 10 or 20 gallon tank with lighting until he got it sold. He brought it to me in a bucket full of his aquarium water, I threw it in my tank with nothing and threw his water out. That was in my tank for 1 to 2 weeks until I found another person getting rid of LR.

This person sold me around 80 - 90 pounds of rock. 4 X 5 gallon pails full. The rock had been in his 90g tank for 2 years fully stocked with fish.
2 of the buckets we kept filled with his water because they had corals on them. 2 buckets had just a little water to keep them moist. I got them transported to my house in under 45 minutes. I then transferred all the rock into my tank and sump. My tank had way too much rock in it. this put me at around 100 pounds maybe more, LR. I gave 20 or so pounds to a friend of mine that needed some.

I left around 5 to 10 pounds of LR in my sump, and the 70 - 80 lbs in my tank.

I have a 14g acrylic sump. The rock in it and a little crushed coral and a 5 to 10 pounds of Live sand sand bed.

I have a Bak pak 2 skimmer, and a mechanic powerfilter, removed the biowheel, just to run the charcoal cartridge.

Since the rock was transported with what qualified as bacteria colonies. I let it sit for 6 weeks with no fish. Letting the corals adapt and grow, all corals have thrived.

I threw in some algae pellets 1 to 2 times a week for the CUC to eat.

That's about it.

travis32 · 04/01/2010, 10:47 AM

I was able to get my fish order rescheduled to next week. Will test this weekend to see how things go and do a waterchange if amonia creeps up at all or isn't gone yet.

I told the online company that I had some slight detectable ammonia, and wanted to wait a week. He suggested getting a seachem bacteria booster to nip the ammonia in the bud and increase my biological filtration capabilities and didn't see any issue if I did that with it being ready in a week for more fish.

He didn't at all suggest I buy it from them or anything like that, plus I probably wouldn't get it from them in time. So, I don't necessarily think he was trying to sell me something.

Would that be a good idea?

spw4949 · 04/01/2010, 11:06 AM

IDK, I personally am not a fan of the bottled bacterias myself, plus with the amount of LR in your tank there should be plenty of denitrifying bacteria in your tank.....I would do like a 15 or 20 gallon H20 change and retest, how old is your test kit & what brand are you using?

travis32 · 04/01/2010, 11:12 AM

I could take the water in somewhere and have it tested I suppose. Never thought of that.

Using an API Master test kit. I didn't check the date on the packaging. I've had it for around 5 to 6 weeks. It uses powders for to generate the tests.

spw4949 · 04/01/2010, 11:17 AM

So it's a powdered test? I'm not too familiar with how efficacious they are to be honest, I have API tests but their liquid....like I said, I would recommend a 15 or 20 gallon H20 change then retest, if it's the same I would guess there is a test issue, also I would not feed for a few days, your livestock will be fine.......

travis32 · 04/01/2010, 11:32 AM

Thanks Steve. I may retest right before and right after a water change tonight or tomorrow to see what happens. I think it's relatively accurate because, I had a dead sally light foot in my tank yesterday (assuming it didn't molt) I pulled the carcass out, but, something had to have killed him, and likely suspect would be trace ammonia most likely from overfeeding.

I'll validate before and after a water change though.

IslandCrow · 04/01/2010, 12:37 PM

Well, it sounds like you're doing the right things. I don't necessarily agree with what the mailorder guy is telling you. I'd go with your own instincts. You obviously have enough live rock, and it sounds like it should biologically be capable of handling two or more fish. The only thing I can really think of is it isn't necessarily the fish, but a large amount of die-off from the rocks themselves. The solution is probably the same either way, though. . .time. Water changes are always a good idea, but just keep in mind that in this case, by itself, it's probably not a long term solution, since the problem is more than likely elsewhere.

travis32 · 04/01/2010, 02:15 PM

Yeah, could be elsewhere. Could be my eyes being color bline. The color change from 0 to .20 from a yellow to a really light yellowgreen color for .2 on the tester is so slight, that I Had to put it up against several types of lights and backgrounds to tell if it was a different shade above zero or not.

After using a white sheet of paper directly behind it, I felt it was a slightly different shade than it has been the past 5 or 6 times I've tested over the last 9 weeks. Which tells me something changed. But, no nitrates or nitrites were detectable. I would think if it was cycling one of the two should have been detectable.

I think a retest is the right direction.

travis32 · 04/01/2010, 04:59 PM

o.k. I retested ammonia tonight and did the same method, same test, and it's now undetectable. yesterday it was definately a more of a green shade. today it's pure yellow no green whatsoever.

So, I'm confused. What happened?? Did the dead sally light foot trigger a very slight reaction and pulling him out was enough for the bacteria to catch up?

Oh, and I believe I figured out the cause of my light foot's death..

it's just a hunch... I got my Sybon auto temp compensating refractometer today. And it said I don't need to do any calibration out of the box. I may calibrate anyways just to make sure.

SG: 1.29 bordering on 1.030.. My guess is evaporation raising salinity just a hair into the 1.030 range would have been enough to kill him. Then the decaying of his corpse, was enough for the API test kit to detect ammonia at a very slight level within 24 hours of his death.

It's the best theory I've got. It is April fools day. So this could all be completely wrong.

04/01/2010, 07:30 AM	#1
travis32 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Fargo, ND Posts: 2,161	Mini Cycles and my fish After having some detectable ammonia last night, I'm paranoid I am going to be going through some mini cycles everytime I add fish now. I hope not. My fish were no where to be seen this morning. Pretty typical of the blenny to disappear when the lights are out. My grama usually is darting in and out of the rock in the morning, I hope it's just asleep. I've requested my fish order that was supposed to ship today, to be delayed to next Friday at the earliest. No sense in taxing the bio load right now when it's already stressed. Also I noticed my most recent feather duster moved.. Can feather dusters move on their own? Or is it a sign that it's going dead? My old feather duster I've had for 5 or 6 weeks, is doing fine. I'll retest everything when I get home today.. If ammonia is detected, how long should it take to go down? 2 or 3 days or more? Thanks!

04/01/2010, 07:41 AM	#2
Chiefsurfer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Seaside Park, NJ Posts: 2,138	if you read anything above .50, do WC's to bring it down. Something likely has happened to a large thing, like a fish or invert dying, because if properly cycled, you should show no measurable cycles REALLY. I mean go and throw 12 fish in, sure, but with the addition of a single fish or coral, it should not happen. __________________ Chief Current Tank: 20 Gallon tall, 4-bulb t5 HO, Eshopps psk75H, ac-70 fuge. So far, green clown goby, striped goby, more gorillas than I wish I had, 5 SPS frags, 3 LPS Frags, 1 Softee, Turkey Wing Clam. Plan for the future: 120 gallon 4ft glass tank. Current Tank Info: 20 gallon tall Reef Tank

04/01/2010, 08:02 AM	#4
Chiefsurfer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Seaside Park, NJ Posts: 2,138	if you had any ammonia, I would cancel that order. If they can postpone it, that's fine. 2 weeks should be fine, just keep testing. Once you have a fair sized bacteria colony, ammonia spikes should be processed much faster than during a cycle when the bacteria population is relatively low. __________________ Chief Current Tank: 20 Gallon tall, 4-bulb t5 HO, Eshopps psk75H, ac-70 fuge. So far, green clown goby, striped goby, more gorillas than I wish I had, 5 SPS frags, 3 LPS Frags, 1 Softee, Turkey Wing Clam. Plan for the future: 120 gallon 4ft glass tank. Current Tank Info: 20 gallon tall Reef Tank

04/01/2010, 08:10 AM	#5
spw4949 Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Albany, N.Y. Posts: 1,594	If your tank is cycled & your seeing ammonia I would guess that you are overfeeding, what do you feed? How much? & how often? In an established aquarium with 80#'s of LR you should not see an ammonia spike from the addition of 2 fish.........I would def do a water change & you could also use some amquel to detoxify the ammonia.... __________________ Steve Current Tank Info: 46 gal bowfront, mixed reef, 2x250W current outer orbit w/4x39W T5 ,10 gal fuge....38 gallon aggressive FOWLR, 10 gallon sump.

04/01/2010, 08:35 AM	#7
spw4949 Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Albany, N.Y. Posts: 1,594	That's a possibility, I feed frozen cubes, I defrost them, soak all the liquid up with a paper towel, soak the food in vitamins, then feed with a toothpick, I kind of scoop the food out with a toothpick & feed the tank what all the fish can eat in about 45sec. or so...... __________________ Steve Current Tank Info: 46 gal bowfront, mixed reef, 2x250W current outer orbit w/4x39W T5 ,10 gal fuge....38 gallon aggressive FOWLR, 10 gallon sump.

04/01/2010, 07:49 AM	#3
travis32 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Fargo, ND Posts: 2,161	Was two fish, I fed relatively heavily to insure everyone got fed, but, not any more heavy than if I'd be feeding 3 maybe 4 fish. Only two fish in there and they weren't dead last night. Both were active and healthy. One of my larger snails looked like it might be dieing last night, it looked all scrunched and was unmoving. Looked how it usually looks with the lights off, but, I looked this morning and he moved and was moving, so, he decided to take an early nap... Other than the lightfoot I didn't see anything "big" dieing or int he process of dieing. Other than the brine shrimp I've been feeding. Maybe just over feeding over 3 or 4 days caused a slight spike? So, I guess it's a pretty good idea to cancelt he order for my 2 marine betas and signal goby? It would have really worked well for me to receive the fish tomorrow, but, not at the expense of crashing my tank. LOL.

04/01/2010, 08:21 AM	#6
travis32 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Fargo, ND Posts: 2,161	I'm feeding brine. I was feeding twice a day, but, my grama never came out to feed in the morning. So, I stopped that. Just feeding when I get home from work now. I have premixed a small piece of frozen brine with aquarium water. Threw it in the fridge in a sealed baggie in a plastic container. I do about a half squirt from a turkey baster. I'm getting closer to feeding only what my grama eats in the matter of a minute or so. vs. just putting a half turkey baster full all in at once then seeing the food float away from the fish and the fish never gets it. My lightfoot was loving it until he died-- if he died. He went nuts for the brine. I never thought of this, but, could having the brine mixed with aquarium water in the fridge be decaying? This is how I assumed one would feed brine.

04/01/2010, 08:43 AM	#8
IslandCrow Reef Monkey Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rockledge, Fl Posts: 5,759	To ensure some learning comes from this experience, could you tell us a little about how you initially cycled the tank? As stated, adding a reasonable number of fish (and two in a 55g is perfectly reasonable) should not cause an ammonia spike in a properly cycled tank. . .even with moderately excessive feeding. Also, tell us a little about your filtration, especially the amount of live rock you're using (assuming that's what you're using for biofiltration, of course). As a side note, brine shrimp is not very nutritious, especially adult brine shrimp. If it's been enriched, it's not too bad, but there are many other foods that are much better. Mysis is a good choice, along with a host of other dry and frozen foods. __________________ All opinions in the above message should be taken with 35 ppt salt. -Mike C. Current Tank Info: I have a reef screen saver on my phone, does that count?

04/01/2010, 08:56 AM	#9
travis32 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Fargo, ND Posts: 2,161	Yeah, I planned on getting mysis. The one LFS didn't carry mysis they only carried frozen brine. I need to research other stores and see if they have any mysis. I got the smallest pack of brine I could get. Some are familiar with my startup process. But, here it is in a nutshell. I got 16 pounds of rock that had been curing in an isolated tank for 2 months. It was from a owner that had too much rock for his 90g and he threw it in a 10 or 20 gallon tank with lighting until he got it sold. He brought it to me in a bucket full of his aquarium water, I threw it in my tank with nothing and threw his water out. That was in my tank for 1 to 2 weeks until I found another person getting rid of LR. This person sold me around 80 - 90 pounds of rock. 4 X 5 gallon pails full. The rock had been in his 90g tank for 2 years fully stocked with fish. 2 of the buckets we kept filled with his water because they had corals on them. 2 buckets had just a little water to keep them moist. I got them transported to my house in under 45 minutes. I then transferred all the rock into my tank and sump. My tank had way too much rock in it. this put me at around 100 pounds maybe more, LR. I gave 20 or so pounds to a friend of mine that needed some. I left around 5 to 10 pounds of LR in my sump, and the 70 - 80 lbs in my tank. I have a 14g acrylic sump. The rock in it and a little crushed coral and a 5 to 10 pounds of Live sand sand bed. I have a Bak pak 2 skimmer, and a mechanic powerfilter, removed the biowheel, just to run the charcoal cartridge. Since the rock was transported with what qualified as bacteria colonies. I let it sit for 6 weeks with no fish. Letting the corals adapt and grow, all corals have thrived. I threw in some algae pellets 1 to 2 times a week for the CUC to eat. That's about it.

04/01/2010, 10:47 AM	#10
travis32 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Fargo, ND Posts: 2,161	I was able to get my fish order rescheduled to next week. Will test this weekend to see how things go and do a waterchange if amonia creeps up at all or isn't gone yet. I told the online company that I had some slight detectable ammonia, and wanted to wait a week. He suggested getting a seachem bacteria booster to nip the ammonia in the bud and increase my biological filtration capabilities and didn't see any issue if I did that with it being ready in a week for more fish. He didn't at all suggest I buy it from them or anything like that, plus I probably wouldn't get it from them in time. So, I don't necessarily think he was trying to sell me something. Would that be a good idea?

04/01/2010, 11:06 AM	#11
spw4949 Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Albany, N.Y. Posts: 1,594	IDK, I personally am not a fan of the bottled bacterias myself, plus with the amount of LR in your tank there should be plenty of denitrifying bacteria in your tank.....I would do like a 15 or 20 gallon H20 change and retest, how old is your test kit & what brand are you using? __________________ Steve Current Tank Info: 46 gal bowfront, mixed reef, 2x250W current outer orbit w/4x39W T5 ,10 gal fuge....38 gallon aggressive FOWLR, 10 gallon sump.

04/01/2010, 11:12 AM	#12
travis32 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Fargo, ND Posts: 2,161	I could take the water in somewhere and have it tested I suppose. Never thought of that. Using an API Master test kit. I didn't check the date on the packaging. I've had it for around 5 to 6 weeks. It uses powders for to generate the tests.

04/01/2010, 11:17 AM	#13
spw4949 Registered Member. Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Albany, N.Y. Posts: 1,594	So it's a powdered test? I'm not too familiar with how efficacious they are to be honest, I have API tests but their liquid....like I said, I would recommend a 15 or 20 gallon H20 change then retest, if it's the same I would guess there is a test issue, also I would not feed for a few days, your livestock will be fine....... __________________ Steve Current Tank Info: 46 gal bowfront, mixed reef, 2x250W current outer orbit w/4x39W T5 ,10 gal fuge....38 gallon aggressive FOWLR, 10 gallon sump.

04/01/2010, 11:32 AM	#14
travis32 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Fargo, ND Posts: 2,161	Thanks Steve. I may retest right before and right after a water change tonight or tomorrow to see what happens. I think it's relatively accurate because, I had a dead sally light foot in my tank yesterday (assuming it didn't molt) I pulled the carcass out, but, something had to have killed him, and likely suspect would be trace ammonia most likely from overfeeding. I'll validate before and after a water change though.

04/01/2010, 12:37 PM	#15
IslandCrow Reef Monkey Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rockledge, Fl Posts: 5,759	Well, it sounds like you're doing the right things. I don't necessarily agree with what the mailorder guy is telling you. I'd go with your own instincts. You obviously have enough live rock, and it sounds like it should biologically be capable of handling two or more fish. The only thing I can really think of is it isn't necessarily the fish, but a large amount of die-off from the rocks themselves. The solution is probably the same either way, though. . .time. Water changes are always a good idea, but just keep in mind that in this case, by itself, it's probably not a long term solution, since the problem is more than likely elsewhere. __________________ All opinions in the above message should be taken with 35 ppt salt. -Mike C. Current Tank Info: I have a reef screen saver on my phone, does that count?

04/01/2010, 02:15 PM	#16
travis32 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Fargo, ND Posts: 2,161	Yeah, could be elsewhere. Could be my eyes being color bline. The color change from 0 to .20 from a yellow to a really light yellowgreen color for .2 on the tester is so slight, that I Had to put it up against several types of lights and backgrounds to tell if it was a different shade above zero or not. After using a white sheet of paper directly behind it, I felt it was a slightly different shade than it has been the past 5 or 6 times I've tested over the last 9 weeks. Which tells me something changed. But, no nitrates or nitrites were detectable. I would think if it was cycling one of the two should have been detectable. I think a retest is the right direction.

04/01/2010, 04:59 PM	#17
travis32 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: West Fargo, ND Posts: 2,161	o.k. I retested ammonia tonight and did the same method, same test, and it's now undetectable. yesterday it was definately a more of a green shade. today it's pure yellow no green whatsoever. So, I'm confused. What happened?? Did the dead sally light foot trigger a very slight reaction and pulling him out was enough for the bacteria to catch up? Oh, and I believe I figured out the cause of my light foot's death.. it's just a hunch... I got my Sybon auto temp compensating refractometer today. And it said I don't need to do any calibration out of the box. I may calibrate anyways just to make sure. SG: 1.29 bordering on 1.030.. My guess is evaporation raising salinity just a hair into the 1.030 range would have been enough to kill him. Then the decaying of his corpse, was enough for the API test kit to detect ammonia at a very slight level within 24 hours of his death. It's the best theory I've got. It is April fools day. So this could all be completely wrong.