Black lights - safe or not for a reef??

[jlinzmaier]

Just thinking of using some black lights for some moon lighting. Anyone have any input about how the spectrum of a black light will affect corals?? I really don't care if it's a usable wavelength for coral growth since it's only for moon lighting, but I want to make sure I won't be hurting my corals with any UV radiation or other range of spectral output.

Thanks.

Jeremy

[jonjonwells]

Have no idea on the long term effects on corals. It will however blind your fish. Blacklights emit UV light almost exclusively. This is bad for fishies, and you actually. That is why halides have a glass shield. To filter out the UV to acceptable levels.

[travismcgee]

black lights don't work. someone told me to try a red light and it was very cool. i know, i was very skeptical but i tried it and really liked it. brought out all kinda stuff at night, especially the little critters you never see.this was before i had some led night lights. i am seriously considering putting a couple back in with my new build. you can buy one for less that a $ and give it try

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by travismcgee

black lights don't work.

Black lights do work and very vibrantly make reds and greens phosphlouresce like nothing else. I just shined one over my tank this morning (before the lights came on) to see what it would look like and it was truly spectacular. I just don't know if they truly emit enough UV light or light from any other spectrum to detrimentally effect the health of the tanks inhabitants. Anyone have info on that specific aspect???


Jeremy

[Bonebrake]

Quite awhile ago a well experienced reefer on another forum experimented with this for an extended period of time (several months) on a couple of different nanos to see the effect on corals and fish.

Eventually, in the blacklight alone nano, the corals didn't do well and he aborted that tank, but the blacklight plus a couple of normal lights did fine. No detriment to fish.

It basically makes the colors pop like crazy, but it does not do anything for photosynthetic activity or coral growth. You could have a blacklight come on for fun before the real lights come on or have one on with your real lights and see if you can even tell if it is on. They are cheap and if you have the canopy space to hide it, it would be a fun experiment.

Novelty blacklights are harmless and do not emit an appreciable amount of UV radiation.

[redfishsc]

Originally Posted by Bonebrake

Novelty blacklights are harmless and do not emit an appreciable amount of UV radiation.

I'd have to agree with this. They are so commonplace that you can get them all the time at WalMart or Lowe's just for playing around.

They aren't anything like the germicidal UV wavelengths.


Although if they are detrimental to one's health, that might explain a lot of the very bizarre legacies of the 70's. Avocado green fridges, orange carpet, and houses that have a second floor that's WAY bigger than the first floor (ie, look like a huge Smurf mushroom hut). Maybe all due to blacklights, lava lamps, and the various pharmacological novelties that go with them?

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by Bonebrake

Quite awhile ago a well experienced reefer on another forum experimented with this for an extended period of time (several months) on a couple of different nanos to see the effect on corals and fish.

Eventually, in the blacklight alone nano, the corals didn't do well and he aborted that tank, but the blacklight plus a couple of normal lights did fine. No detriment to fish.

It basically makes the colors pop like crazy, but it does not do anything for photosynthetic activity or coral growth. You could have a blacklight come on for fun before the real lights come on or have one on with your real lights and see if you can even tell if it is on. They are cheap and if you have the canopy space to hide it, it would be a fun experiment.

Novelty blacklights are harmless and do not emit an appreciable amount of UV radiation.

Originally Posted by redfishsc

I'd have to agree with this. They are so commonplace that you can get them all the time at WalMart or Lowe's just for playing around.

They aren't anything like the germicidal UV wavelengths.


Although if they are detrimental to one's health, that might explain a lot of the very bizarre legacies of the 70's. Avocado green fridges, orange carpet, and houses that have a second floor that's WAY bigger than the first floor (ie, look like a huge Smurf mushroom hut). Maybe all due to blacklights, lava lamps, and the various pharmacological novelties that go with them?

Thank you very much guys!!!

That is exactly what info I was interested in. When the halides (or even just the actinics) are on, the blacklights don't put out enough to see a difference. I just wanted to use them before my LED moonlights or in addition to the LED's for an interesting "POP" of coloration during the moon light period.

Thanks so much!!!

Jeremy

[TheSurgeon]

You'll have to post your results with this experiment. Sounds interesting. Id love to try it with the tank in my living room at night when we have late night guests over.

[BZOFIQ]

Any UV is bad UV. If you think that a little UV is fine here and there be my guest and install a whole set of them over your tank. Just remember if you develop something years later that you won't even think to attribute to your blacklights that you had installed 5 years back don't blame anybody for your foolishness.

There is no germicidal UV and safe UV, sweet UV and sour UV. UV is a UV is a UV. They do come in different spectrum lenghts and one may be more damaging than other but they all have negative effects on living organisms.

Corals might be protected from it because they have developed pigments to deal with sun's UV radiation. You on the other hand, would be considered somewhat less protected or "undeveloped" if you will.

[swiftwing7]

If you spend anytime in the sun you get more uv than you do from a 30W blacklight. The ocean gets hit with UV all day. It seems to do fine. Its all in the dosage.
Think about lasers, those are bad for your eyes and they have warnings all over them with different class ratings. If a blacklight was exclusively uv, it would be dangerous and there would be warnings on it. The UV spectrum is not detectable by human eye, (mantis can see it though). So obviously the blacklight is not entirely UV.

[BZOFIQ]

Originally Posted by swiftwing7

If you spend anytime in the sun you get more uv than you do from a 30W blacklight.

That still doesn't justify being exposed to extra UV radiation from any other source.

Originally Posted by swiftwing7

The ocean gets hit with UV all day. It seems to do fine. Its all in the dosage...

...or adaptation. Corals have developed pigments to protect themselves from harmfull UV radiation. Some have noticed that their colors loose some of these pigments under LED lights that have lower UV levels.

Much like people have melanine that intensifies in the summer months (tan) to provide higher level of protection (and you thought its for good looks). Same is used for protection by animals and even plants. Have you ever heard of white boxers (dogs) that develop skin cancers on a whim. Well, there is a reason to this phenomena.

Originally Posted by swiftwing7

Think about lasers, those are bad for your eyes and they have warnings all over them with different class ratings.

These warnings are for you to read and apply. Most people ignore them but the manufacturers of these devices put it there to cover themselves from liability. If you decide to use them "its at your own risk" Just because the label is there it doesn't mean its safe to use.

Originally Posted by swiftwing7

If a blacklight was exclusively uv, it would be dangerous and there would be warnings on it. The UV spectrum is not detectable by human eye, (mantis can see it though). So obviously the blacklight is not entirely UV.

Yes indeed, we cannot see UV light but that doesn't mean it is safe.

Point of my response is not whether its safe for your reef tank. It is your (human) exposure to an UV source and its long term effects.


More on blacklights here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_light

If you are not biased for or against you can clearly see warnings in the article.

[jlinzmaier]

Considering I plan to run these only for about 30-60 min each day, that wikipedia link has made me feel even more confident that it will be fine.

Jeremy

[swiftwing7]

This is straight from the wikipedia link:
"While "black lights" do produce light in the UV range, their spectrum is confined to the longwave UVA region. UVA is considered the safest of the three spectra of UV light."
" The weak output of black lights, though, should not cause DNA damage or cellular mutations the way sunlight can"

I understand UV is bad, but once again its all about the amount. This is like saying we can't drink tap water because it contains toxic heavy metals. UVA gives you tan. If a black light was an efficient means of tanning it would be used in tanning salons.
Yes a black light isn't "good" for your eyes. But buying a little florescent bulb from wal-mart and running it over your tank isn't going to hurt you.

Lasers have warning because they aren't safe to use on your eyes, they cause damage. Black lights have no such warning, thus, they must be safe. I mean if you can trust scientists and doctors to determine if its bad for you.
Let's review:
Black lights are not a source of dangerous UV radiation, they produce the safest form UVA.
It will not cause cancer or do any damage.
While UVA does cause tanning and wrinkles, the black light bulb is too weak.

You are making Black light bulbs sound like they cause cancer and will certainty kill him in 5 years if he puts it in his house. "Any UV is bad UV", sounds like propoganda to me. You know people are white because we use the sun rays to absorb more Vitamin D, an adaption to northern climates with less sun. Originally everybody on the planet was black. Now if UV was so terrible wouldn't we have retained all of our anti-UV defenses and we'd still all be black??? I guess our bodies don't know how to deal with the deadly sun rays.

But hey Xoomer maybe I am Biased, (Don't get me started on magnetism I have some really biased views there.) I just love me some black light so much I don't give a darn about all the negative health effects. But I live on the wild side, I eat fish and sometimes I don't wear sunscreen when I get the mail.

[BZOFIQ]

Originally Posted by jlinzmaier

Considering I plan to run these only for about 30-60 min each day, that wikipedia link has made me feel even more confident that it will be fine.

Jeremy

Yeah 30-60 minutes is one thing. I thought you wanted to run them either whole day (supplement) or whole night (moonlight)

[xxscoobiixx]

Does anyone have a pix of what the popping effect looks like? I'd love to see it.

[nikon187]

My brother has 2 above his 180g over 3 yrs with no ill effect to him or his tank..

[BZOFIQ]

Originally Posted by swiftwing7

Black lights are not a source of dangerous UV radiation, they produce the safest form UVA.

.

You say safest and I say least dangerous. Your pick.


"While "black lights" do produce light in the UV range, their spectrum is confined to the longwave UVA region. UVA is considered the safest of the three spectra of UV light. It is the higher energy (shortwave) light in the UVB and UVC range that is responsible for the DNA damage that leads to skin cancer. UVA light is much lower in energy and does not cause sunburn. UVA is capable of causing damage to collagen fibers, so it does have the potential to accelerate skin aging and cause wrinkles. UVA can also destroy vitamin A in the skin.

UVA light can cause DNA damage, but not directly like UVB and UVC. Due to its longer wavelength, it is absorbed less and reaches deeper skin layers (the leather skin), where it produces reactive chemical intermediates, such as hydroxyl and oxygen radicals, which in turn can damage DNA and result in a high risk of melanoma. The weak output of black lights, though, should not cause DNA damage or cellular mutations the way sunlight can, although there are reports stating that the type of UV radiation used for suntan (UVA) can cause DNA damage, photoaging (damage to the skin from chronic exposure to sunlight) and skin cancer[1] as well as toughening of the skin, suppression of the immune system, and cataract formation after overexposure.
"

[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by swiftwing7

Yes a black light isn't "good" for your eyes. But buying a little florescent bulb from wal-mart and running it over your tank isn't going to hurt you.

It's not the black light its the UVA they emit. I guess rat poison if only consumed in minute amounts isn't going to kill us either if I was to use your logic. Let me know how this one works for you.

Originally Posted by swiftwing7

You are making Black light bulbs sound like they cause cancer and will certainty kill him in 5 years if he puts it in his house. "Any UV is bad UV", sounds like propoganda to me.

Oups, I've been exposed. I manufacture anti-black light fixtures and spreading such propaganda will make me rich. Yupee.

Originally Posted by swiftwing7

But I live on the wild side, I eat fish and sometimes I don't wear sunscreen when I get the mail.

That makes 2 of us....but given the choice I prefer to make an educated one.

[BZOFIQ]

Originally Posted by nikon187

My brother has 2 above his 180g over 3 yrs with no ill effect to him or his tank..

We won't know the true effect of cell phones for decades and even then most governments will not tell you the truth.

Let me give you a little story from a book I recently read. (I'm going to put it in my own words)

The difference between European and US governments.

The 2 governments are tipped that a certain chemical in certain food product might be responsible for increase in brain tumor cases (just and example)

Both hire 2 independent labs to test the chemical content and its effects. Both labs come back with the same results, 8 out of 10 rats exposed to this chemical developed brain tumors within specified amount of time.

Here is the difference.

The europeans pull all the products containing this chemical off the shelves thinking that if it caused brain tumor in 8-10 cases it will most likely cause brain tumor or other maladies in human bodies. They ban use of such ingridient in any product adding it to RoHS directive.

Americans on the other hand say, hmm while it caused brain tumor in 8 out of 10 lab rats we don't have any tests or proven cases that a cancer poor Joe Shmo got was actually caused by this chemical alone. What makes it even more twisted California bans the use of this chemical hence the label "this chemical is known to the Sate of California to cause....cancer, reproductive toxicity, birth defects...etc"


Question; Is the european government too cautious in banning this toxic material possibly saving lives or is the US government too lax on its policy?

You answer yourself.

Enough with off-topic stuff.

Want to use the black light, use it. If you put it up for discussion expect to get different responses from different people.

[swiftwing7]

Rat poison isn't toxic at low levels. Advil isn't toxic at low levels. Water isn't toxic at low levels. Uranium isn't toxic at low levels. All that matters is the dose. That's it.
I don't know what the level of rat poison I can consume is, but it exists. Gasoline is a toxin but we smell it every time we fill up our car. CO2 is toxic, you wear a gas mask I presume. You must also have an industrial venting system in your bathroom to prevent methane poisoning. Everything on this planet is bad and will kill us at some level!
I don't understand why you are so bent on making this stupid black light into a dangerous object.
Dogs can cause damage, are you anti dog? Look I can use bold words too.
My advice, hide in dark closet, don't let anybody in, because they could have a trace of a germ or a reflected UV on them. Don't drink or eat anything because it could have traces of dangerous compounds containing lead chromium vanadium rat posion and the rest of the periodic table. Then just admit defeat because gamma rays will still find you, and let me tell you, no gamma ray is a good gamma ray.

[BZOFIQ]

Originally Posted by nikon187

My brother has 2 above his 180g over 3 yrs with no ill effect to him or his tank..

hmmm...If you have kids you might have read about Bisphenol compounds where adults that are sterile are finding out that it might have been caused by teething rings that their parents gave them 20-some years ago.

Hmm I'm sure many of these parents said, I gave it to all of my kids when they were driving me nuts because they were teething and screaming their heads off and 3 years later everyone is fine.

[BZOFIQ]

Originally Posted by swiftwing7

Rat poison isn't toxic at low levels. Advil isn't toxic at low levels. Water isn't toxic at low levels. Uranium isn't toxic at low levels. All that matters is the dose. That's it.
I don't know what the level of rat poison I can consume is, but it exists. Gasoline is a toxin but we smell it every time we fill up our car. CO2 is toxic, you wear a gas mask I presume. You must also have an industrial venting system in your bathroom to prevent methane poisoning. Everything on this planet is bad and will kill us at some level!
I don't understand why you are so bent on making this stupid black light into a dangerous object.
Dogs can cause damage, are you anti dog? Look I can use bold words too.
My advice, hide in dark closet, don't let anybody in, because they could have a trace of a germ or a reflected UV on them. Don't drink or eat anything because it could have traces of dangerous compounds containing lead chromium vanadium rat posion and the rest of the periodic table. Then just admit defeat because gamma rays will still find you, and let me tell you, no gamma ray is a good gamma ray.

Dude the only one bent is you here. I am just stating facts are you reply against them.

So, I'll post my last answer in this thread and you take it from there.

1) I don't wear a mask because of CO2, there is no point.

2) If somebody told me have a spoon of rat poison because spoon won't kill you I'll refuse, so will 99.9% of general public.

3) I have a dog, that destroys stuff and I am not anti-dog

4) I don't think black lights or lasers are safe regardless of what your opinion is, and you are certainly entitled to have your opinion.

If averybody went by the rest of garbage your wrote there under "my advice..." we'd all be dead already.



I stated facts, provided links to back it up; you take it as-is. Get 50 black lights, put it on 24/7 and live with it....

[TheSurgeon]

Wow, this thread is outta control! And as for the rat poison comments: warfarin(the classic, more common rat poison) blocks the clotting cascade by disrupting vitamin k. In theory, if you ate enough vit. k you could eat warfarin all day. Still, I dont think thats a great idea. But it's your choice to make.

[jlinzmaier]

Xoomer and Swiftwing7

All of the arguement here is really unproductive. Arguementation like what you guys go on with is what turns people away from good forums like RC.

Stick to the facts and provide factual input for the questions asked. If you guys want to inflate your egos by argueing sensless comments back and forth then go somewhere else!! Your arguementative and strongly opinionated comments chase away many people that might have legitimate questions or might actually want to learn something about the topic on this thread. Just a hint, but you might want to take some time and reflect on the childish comments and agruementation you guys are posting.

Jeremy

[jcolletteiii]

Originally Posted by xoomer

I stated facts, provided links to back it up; you take it as-is. Get 50 black lights, put it on 24/7 and live with it....

Wikipedia... as a source of facts... really? Wow.

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by jcolletteiii

Wikipedia... as a source of facts... really? Wow.

Please don't encourage the pointless areguementation of these guys.




Does anyone have any legitimate information or experience on how black lights might affect a reef tank??

Jeremy