New tank - i might be mis-informed

[Chiya]

Hi,

I hope to have my own big reef tank in the future but for now, to gain some experience, I've decided to use my existing 10G tank to get my fingers salty.

Having set up my tank last night, I'm now worried that I've rushed into it due to misinformation from LFS / not understanding what I read.

Bought 10pounds of live rock (2 big, 1small) and 4pounds of live sand.
My LFS told me that the LR is cured and I could just add them into the tank along with the salt mix.

Went ahead with mixing the salt water and noticed that the water turned warm during mixing.. The sea salt was hot to touch.. Is this normal?

I then place the LR into the tank and was surprised to see many creatures crawling out.. (this is my first time in contact with LR) Thought they were drying up and I poured the saltwater into the tank quickly.

Within minutes, they started dying.. I quickly started up my canister filter & chiller to get the water circulation going.

I spotted a couple more worms that looked like they were going to die..
This morning, there was this huge worm (bristle? - 10inch long rolling around in the sand)

The tank is cycling now, but I'm worried that the LR has been turned into dead rock in my hurry to pour the salt water.

Question
1) Was my LFS correct to say that I could add LR, LS and saltwater into a new tank at the same time?
2) Is it normal for sea salt to heat up the water while mixing?

This is a great forum and I'm learning new things everyday..
Appreciate any advice on anything that was done wrong.

Regards,
Ryan

[muttley000]

A few thoughts, I'm sure others will add:

Freshly mixed saltwater is notoriously harsh, and should be mixed for ideally 24 hours, and tested before use. How did you check the concentration of your water? The LFS should have sold you a hydrometer, or better yet a refractometer, to measure this. You have to make sure the temperature is in line before putting your live rock in also.

Ten gallons is going to be very hard for a beginner to keep stable, things can change very quickly.

In the long term you will want to replace the canister filter with a protien skimmer in my opinion. Not 100 percent needed, but will make your life easier.

[Fizz71]

What the LFS said was technically valid, but IMO very abbreviated. If you had mixed the SW and tested it to be the right levels and let it sit for an hour before dropping the rock and sand in you'd probably have been OK. You probably killed a great deal of bacteria, flora and fauna in that rock but it should recover. Just remove anything that died and start testing for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate for the next week or so and see if it recovers. You're looking for ammonia and nitrite to be zero and start seeing nitrates to know that you've got all the right bacteria starting to develop.

I would read read read the stuff that's in these forums..there are great "sticky" threads to keep you busy.

Also understand like muttley said...10g is a VERY tough tank to keep stable, the more water volume you have, the more stable it will be. I usually recommend a 55g to 75g setup for a beginner..a nice 3 to 4 foot tank of stability. I started in the 10g range and was VERY discourage with everything that I killed in there. It wasn't until I started a 75g that I really started to understand the hobby...now I'm up to a 300g system...so watch out.

Remember that your LFS is there to sell you things...we're not...so do your own research before you go any further!

Good luck!!!

[returnofsid]

Some of your questions were answered above, so I'll answer the one left unanswered. No, salt mix will not heat up water. What brand are you using? Describe your mixing method. Are you possibly using a heater that's over-rated for the amount of water? Are you using a pump to mix the saltwater? Could be that you're using a pump that's way too large, and the pump is heating up the water, too much.

[Fizz71]

..actually when I add salt I notice a temporary increase in temp, but not enough to matter. (unless you're adding WAY too much).

[muppet]

Salt dissolving in water will emit heat, I'm pretty sure of at least that much chemistry.

[mr.maroonsalty]

you are correct it has to heat


I'd bring the rock back and exchange it for fresh live rock, they sold it to you with bad information, or at least not enough information; and there is no sense starting off on a bad foot. If the store is worth their salt, they will throw it to the bottom of their rock tank and give you fresh stuff. Get you s.g. set with the water circulating and at temp for about 24 hrs, then add rock. People use freshly mixed salt water, imo it is a bad practice and not to do it unless in a pinch.

[mr.maroonsalty]

Your learning curve is surely stepped up with a a small water volume; but it does make some things simpler, such as easier small frequent water changes at a much more reasonable price, however, there is little room for mistake or neglect.

Quick tip for you comes to mind: If you are using an off the shelf hydrometer be sure to get it calibrated, when properly used they are for the most part consistent but, notoriously low reading.

[DevilBoy]

It sounds like to me that either you had the temp of the water way to hot or your salinity was way to high and when you poured the water in , it started killing things off. Did your LFS tell you to use fresh RO/DI water for mixing salt ?

[Tilmo2180]

I would invest in a refractometer, This hobby gets expensive pretty fast. I picked one up for 50 bucks and it helps alot to keep my salinity stable. Before I used a swing arm hydrometer and I had it at 1.026 pretty consistently. I got my refractometer a week ago and it checked at 1.019 I have since raised it up and am almost to the proper level again, my corals all colored up and everything looks healthier. Hydrometers are not nearly as reliable and accurate as refractometers.

I would like stated above reccommend going larger, I say at least 30g. At 30g its pretty easy to keep stable. You could use that 10g as a sump.

Also as already mentioned, ditch the canister and go for a protein skimmer, you will have much more luck with it.

The guys on here are much better than the LFS for information. Its the LFS guys job to help you, these guys do it cause they want to. Some of the people who frequent these forums have insane tanks and more years of experience in reefing than I have living. Hang out here and ask questions and you will be fine.

[Pufferpunk]

If i were you. I'd stop right now & read:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1031074

Then get yourself a 55g to start with.

[Chiya]

Hi All,

Thanks for the replies..

Freshly mixed saltwater is notoriously harsh, and should be mixed for ideally 24 hours, and tested before use. How did you check the concentration of your water? The LFS should have sold you a hydrometer, or better yet a refractometer, to measure this. You have to make sure the temperature is in line before putting your live rock in also.

I gave my tank volume to my LFS and he measured the salt mix required for me.
He told me to just add all the salt in and mix. (He did not have a hydrometer/refractometer in stock at the moment)
However, I did manage to pick up a swing arm hydrometer last night at another LFS. My salinity was way off and I spent the entire night diluting the tank water.

Also understand like muttley said...10g is a VERY tough tank to keep stable, the more water volume you have, the more stable it will be. I usually recommend a 55g to 75g setup for a beginner..a nice 3 to 4 foot tank of stability. I started in the 10g range and was VERY discourage with everything that I killed in there. It wasn't until I started a 75g that I really started to understand the hobby...now I'm up to a 300g system...so watch out.

The 300g will be a good target for me to look forward to. But first, I'll have to manage my 10g else I'll be killing 300g worth of LR/livestock.. =(

Some of your questions were answered above, so I'll answer the one left unanswered. No, salt mix will not heat up water. What brand are you using? Describe your mixing method. Are you possibly using a heater that's over-rated for the amount of water? Are you using a pump to mix the saltwater? Could be that you're using a pump that's way too large, and the pump is heating up the water, too much.

I used a 900lph powerhead to mix the salt in a 20L pail. Reading further, I realised that I shouldnt add the salt before the water. This might be the reason excessive heat was produced during the solution of salt.

Also, I live in Singapore so I'm using a chiller instead of a heater. The flow is now tank --> canister --> chiller --> tank.

How can I incorporate a skimmer if I do not have a sump?

So this is what I have to do..
1) Get a refractometer (will my low end hydrometer suffice?)
2) Get a skimmer (my first thoughts were to spend on a higher rated skimmer when I upgrade the tank)
3) Get a bigger tank (I'm planning on a 6ft)

Thanks for the comments in advance!!

Cheers,
Ryan

[Evi1Monkey]

There are HOB (hang on back) skimmers. I'm still setting up my sump, so I'm using one for now.

[Ryno368]

chiya what we are trying to say is a 10g is very difficult to keep at the correct temp and salinity for beginners not to mention other things you will be measuring for later on.

you can get a 55g fairly cheap and add stuff slowly

[jtrasap]

Don't worry about the live rock, the die off will fuel your cycle. As long as you've got your salinity back in check, sit back and let it cycle.

As far as tank stability goes, yes, stability can be a concern as with less volume you have less room for error. If you're planning on a fish only tank there's nothing to it as fish will not require you to keep up with the ellements which are required for keeping corals. I've had a 10g fish only tank running for over 2 years now with nothing more than a cheap hang on the back type filter. I have a pair of Percula clowns in it and they breed off and on fairly regularly so they must be happy.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby.

[Chiya]

Alright, here's what I'll be doing tonight..

1) Get a HOB skimmer..
2) 25% water change..
3) Re-measure the salinity..
4) Visit reefcentral =)

Thanks..

Cheers,
Ryan

[Ryno368]

is the water change to adjust the salinity? if not i would leave it only.

[Chiya]

just an update.

I managed to buy a skimmer.
The water flow : tank -->canister -->chiller --> skimmer
I couldnt connect it the other way as I'm using my canister filter as a pump.

Tank parameters..
Temp : 26 degrees
Salinity : 1.020
Nitrite : 1.0
Nitrate : not tested as there's nitrite

I think the only living things are the bacteria (I hope)

Hopefully I'm on the right track now..

Regards,
Ryan

[jtrasap]

Don't run the filtration during the cycle though. Once you get toward the end of the cycle, with ammonia and nitrite at zero, then start your filtration.

[Tuscaquatics]

Originally Posted by jtrasap

Don't run the filtration during the cycle though. Once you get toward the end of the cycle, with ammonia and nitrite at zero, then start your filtration.

Why?

[camlov2]

I am disapointed in a LFS that would measure out salt based just on the size tank. The amount of water in a small tank once you put in rock, sand, other... could vary easily be off by a gallon. That would mean that they gave you enough salt to make 10 gallons but had you mix it with about 9 gallons of water. On a tank this small that could be a big problem (and was). From now on I would question anything that store says to do with out checking other sources first.

[jtrasap]

Originally Posted by Tuscaquatics

Why?

In simple form; the filters will be working to remove bacteria food. If you're removing their food, you will not get as strong a bacterial population.

[Fizz71]

Originally Posted by Chiya

just an update.
The water flow : tank -->canister -->chiller --> skimmer

I read that and got a little concerned...how are you getting the water back to the tank, and where is the skimmer located? Skimmer's are open so connecting them to a loop with a canister filter is tricky...I just want to make sure you got it right. If this is all happening in your sump, then fine. ..but it means there is one more pump to return the water to the tank which you didn't mention...hence my concern.

[drew1]

I was wondering the same thing. On one of my tanks I go tank > canister filter > chiller > tank. The skimmer is a separate interface directly with the tank. Also, I love my ten gallon mixed tank. It is surprisingly stable and everything is very happy. The drawback is that once something goes wrong in there, and I'm sure it will eventually, it will happen quickly. Also, watch out for the hydrometers. I just bought one to compare with my refractometer and another hydrometer and the new one is WAY off. RO water reads 1.014! My tank water (1.025) doesn't ever register its so far off the scale!

[Floowid]

I believe his only pump is the canister filter, which is acting to move the water through everything. In that case, turning off the filtration is not an option. Removing the filter media would not be a bad idea, but the tank will cycle either way. I would suggest a separate powerhead placed in the tank, or better yet, a Koralia nano. You need lots of water movement for a successful tank.