Newbie cycling questions..

[abhishek@1985]

Hi friends,
I am about to start my first 20 gallong marine tank...all equipments set.. Just had a stupid querry..

When should I go for a 50% water change after adding my uncured live rocks to the tank...I shall have a reef octopus skimmer running..Some are saying that you should make 50 to 70% water change after 2 weeks once the initial die offs happen..Also let me know when should I add live sand..Is it from the beginning or 1 month after adding my live rocks...

[shifty51008]

you can add the sand at anytime, as for doing a water change, I would wait till the cycle is complete

[Nakzter]

+1 on the no water change after 2 weeks. I would perform one once everything has cycled (4-5 weeks).

[abhishek@1985]

any reason for that apart from the salt wastage? I felt that changing water would keep the ammonia levels under certain level and would shorten the process of curing live rocks...

[shifty51008]

the water change will not speed up the cycle, the only thing a water change will do is help keep ammonia levels down to save some small animals (even though it is minumal) but the cycle will still take just as long.

[MrTuskfish]

It is not uncommon for ammonia to reach a level high enough to kill the bacteria we try to culture; so a WC can be very helpful.

[abhishek@1985]

Ok I get it...one more question thoug..Do you recommend getting all the live rocks together or getting them in small 2 to 3 batches introduced after a a span of 3 weeks...

[shifty51008]

IMO best to cycle it all at once

[outy]

Originally Posted by MrTuskfish

It is not uncommon for ammonia to reach a level high enough to kill the bacteria we try to culture; so a WC can be very helpful.

thats not true

nitrite volume will grow and take care of ammonia and nitrates will grow to eat the nitrates.

dont do any water changes during the cycling proccess or your just cutting down the amount of your benificial bacteria population.

OP best bet is to cycle all at once, the sooner you get material in there the sooner youll cycle will be done.

[lcs]

Agree on not doing any water changes until your nitrates spike. Once that is done you can add your first fish and/or clean up crew (snails, crabs, etc). Just be sure to keep a close eye on ammonia levels for the first couple of weeks after the first fish are added.

What you're doing during a cycle is to populate the tank with two species of bacteria - one to convert ammonia (NH3) to nitrite (NO2) and one to convert the nitrite to nitrate (NO3). There is much debate on the best way to ensure a robust population of both. The end result you want is to have large enough populations of both to take care of the waste that is introduced to the tank from food and fish poo. When you do start adding fish, give at least two weeks between additions so the bacteria can catch up to the increase in waste product.

HTH!

[Raggamuffin]

I am going to disagree with alot of folks here, when I set up tanks I do water changes. I try to hold it at or just below 1.0 on ammonia, past 1.0 you will lose alot of the little life on the rock. Yes your total bacteria levels may be SLIGHTLY lower at the end of the major cycle but as soon as you put in a CUC you still have weeks to wait for a first fish so by then it makes no diffrence what so ever excepting that now you have an abundance of little critters you wouldn't have had.

[lcs]

Makes sense Raggamuffin. When I've cycled tanks I've never gotten my ammonia over 2ppm, so I didn't bother with changes so I guess it would depend on how high the NH3 goes during the cycle if water changes are necessary.

[Raggamuffin]

Holding the ammonia down under toxic levels (anything over 1.0) to the micro fauna tends to make the following spikes hold at lower levels as well... basically keep the first from going toxic and none of the rest go toxic either.

[RcToners]

Originally Posted by outy

thats not true

nitrite volume will grow and take care of ammonia and nitrates will grow to eat the nitrates.

dont do any water changes during the cycling proccess or your just cutting down the amount of your benificial bacteria population.

OP best bet is to cycle all at once, the sooner you get material in there the sooner youll cycle will be done.

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. The whole dont do a water change you will lose bacteria is simply a wide spread myth. Take a look and read this article and you will be able to make a much more informed descision.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-04/newbie/index.php

[jeff@zina.com]

Water change, no water change... It really isn't an issue. What is the issue is watching the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycle. If ammonia gets too high, as in over about 4 ppm, it can stop the cycle. Keeping it to 2.0 or under is a good idea, and a partial water change is really the only way to do that.

Now will it get that high? Who knows? Wait, YOU will know. That's why you're testing throughout the process. First ammonia will get high, then come down as nitrites go up, then those come down as nitrates go up. When nitrates come back down, the cycle is complete. There are many ways to speed up this process, but it has to happen for the tank to be able to handle any live stock.

So, no matter what advice you get, even from me, your testing will always tell you what you need to do. And what you need to do will be different from what any of us need to do, none of us have identical systems.

FWIW, I haven't actually cycled a tank in years. I start new tanks with materials that are already cycled.

Jeff

Jeff

[Toddrtrex]

Anytime I was cycling/curing I always treated it like an already running tank. That would mean running a skimmer, doing water changes, etc. I want to do my best to preserve the life on the live rock that I paid good money for. Also, the less nutrients in the water/tank the less algae issues that will have to be dealt with.

[blasterman789]

I'm trying to recall my biology on this, but as I recall if ammonia levels get too high, or nitrite levels get too high, then it impedes the process of the alternate. The result is a see-saw effect and why ammonia seems to vanish and then start back up again with new tanks.

However, this usually happens when you cycle dead rock and sand from scratch and use a lot of fish, such as a flock of damsels. This is also old school and well all know not the best way to cycle.

The big variable here is what the rock that abhishek has is going to do. 'Uncured' can mean a lot things and be in various stages of decomp, or it might not cycle at all. We don't know. My suggestion is to watch ammonia levels and don't let them get too high, but they might not do anything at all. If after two weeks no ammonia or nitrite is detected I'd move to the next step, do a maintenance water change, and add a clean-up crew. If ammonia still stays zero after a week or two after that it's fine to add a beginner fish. Drives me nuts when people say 'wait' for no reason when the tank is obviously ready for some bioload.

Yes, add the sand now.

[badwrasse]

also do yourself a favor and cycle the rock in a tub before adding it to your tank. you will keep alot of wast and detritis out of your display tank. read up on cooking live rock (your not actually cooking it). and save yourself trouble later.

[MrTuskfish]

Originally Posted by RcToners

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. The whole dont do a water change you will lose bacteria is simply a wide spread myth. Take a look and read this article and you will be able to make a much more informed descision.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-04/newbie/index.php

This is an excellent article, and 100% common sense. It reminds me of the myth that using "used' water will cycle a tank.

[outy]

Originally Posted by RcToners

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. The whole dont do a water change you will lose bacteria is simply a wide spread myth. Take a look and read this article and you will be able to make a much more informed descision.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-04/newbie/index.php

I stand corrected

i would like to add that i know the majority of the bacteria thrives on the material in the tank and not on the water.

I also missed the part about uncured LR in that case mrtuskfish has a great point.

in a tank with cured LR I would still bypass a water change but its my personal prefference as there is still bacteria in the water

[abhishek@1985]

Ok...this is phenomenol..So many responses!!!I donot believe..thank you all for all of ur views..well from the entire discussion I have figured out that I shall have to make my way through with my own experiments and experience..

Now here comes the second querry...

I was thinking of a remote DSB in my sump.But my tank + sump water volume is only 100 litres or rather 26.4 gals..So I am not sure if its worth the risk of setting up the DSB for such a small tank despite the pros it has..

Please give your views...

Also I was thinking instead of DSB , what if I put some Live rocks in that chamber with a wave maker ...

In that way I shall have more LRs in my tank system and thus more biological filteration...

Give me ur views...

[bnumair]

personally i have a 3 inch sand and rest rubble live rock in my sump. for flow its already moving from once chamber to other so i didnt add anything in it.

[MCary]

I am a bacteriologist.

Ammonia is a disinfectant, so yes, at some point, high ammonia will kill bacteria. However, your tank will never reach these levels. The reason you may want to keep your ammonia levels down, is that you may want to preserve some of the more delicate hitchhikers on your LR.

The ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle has nothing to do with the molecules themselves. Nitrite does not eat ammonia as outy stated. Ammonia is eaten by nitrifying bacteria that use ammonia as its source of nitrogen. Their byproduct is nitrite. As ammoniia increases, their numbers increase, nitrite lags behind. Then as the nitrite levels increase, another nitrifying bacteria consumes the nitrite, and their byproduct is nitrate. Nitrate can only be removed in 2 ways, either by water changes or an anaerobic bacteria. An anaerobe is a bacteria that cannot live in the presence of a free hydoxide radical, for simplicity, we say oxygen. These bacteria colonize deep sand beds and the cores of live rock and of course technology solutions like nitrate reactors.

Or I could be wrong.

[outy]

Originally Posted by MCary

I am a bacteriologist.

Ammonia is a disinfectant, so yes, at some point, high ammonia will kill bacteria. However, your tank will never reach these levels. The reason you may want to keep your ammonia levels down, is that you may want to preserve some of the more delicate hitchhikers on your LR.

The ammonia-nitrite-nitrate cycle has nothing to do with the molecules themselves. Nitrite does not eat ammonia as outy stated. Ammonia is eaten by nitrifying bacteria that use ammonia as its source of nitrogen. Their byproduct is nitrite. As ammoniia increases, their numbers increase, nitrite lags behind. Then as the nitrite levels increase, another nitrifying bacteria consumes the nitrite, and their byproduct is nitrate. Nitrate can only be removed in 2 ways, either by water changes or an anaerobic bacteria. An anaerobe is a bacteria that cannot live in the presence of a free hydoxide radical, for simplicity, we say oxygen. These bacteria colonize deep sand beds and the cores of live rock and of course technology solutions like nitrate reactors.

Or I could be wrong.

great explanation eating was a figure of speach but i did learn something and thats the the nitrite is a byproduct of nitrifying bacteria

only other thing, nitrate can be consumed by chaeto though and other macro algea? and chemicaly?

[abhishek@1985]

Thanks for all the replies...Great explanation Mcary..

Moreover 1 more question..Can I go for DSB from the very beginning along with the start of the Live Rock cycling process?Also let me know where do you prefer to place the DSB in the sump..I am looking at the second chamber where the water enters after being filtered by the skimmer....