Will it cycle? New LR

[rayn]

I know, silly noob question here. I'm getting ready to set up my 55 again after the leak incident. Everything that was in the 55 was placed in my 120 so there should be no die off. When I fill the 55 again am I able to just replace the LR back into the 55 from the 120 without a cycle since there should be no die off? Also, how would I know there was no cycle?

Side note I thought of while typeing this. Will removing LR from my 120 be detremental to the filteration capabilities of the 120 and create a spike somewhere?

[Tony78]

You should be able to move your rock back over. You may not see a cycle. I'd personally add some ammonia source (piece of shrimp) to make sure a cycle starts if it needs to and monitor levels.

You are removing lr volume from the 120. I don't think removing the biological filtration would kick off a cycle. Have you added additional bioload to that tank since the LR? If the 120 was going to see a cycle, I would think you'd have seen it when the lr was introduced not removed.

[AaronM]

If your just moving LR from one tank to another i reckon you're right - there won't be any die off, so no cycle.

I guess after you move the rock test for amonia to make sure theres no cycle...

Ofcourse you're decreasing your bio filter by removing LR...I don't reckon it'd cause any spikes though. I reckon the remaining bio filter will catch up and deal with whats in the tank.

[rayn]

The 120 currently has 2 clowns, blue tang, rabbitfish, swallow angel, 3 chromis, cleaner shrimp, CBS, then various corals and two nems. All have been in there minimum two weeks. Things keep changing here and I have to keep moving stuff around till I get my final setup. Not ideal, I know, but must be done for now.

I didn't worry about a cycle in the 120 when LR was added, only because it was coming from a established tank.

That is my question/thought. I didn't think established LR would cause a cycle. If I added a bunch of uncured to the tank I would say yes.

[RcToners]

[QUOTE=Tony78;17703764] I'd personally add some ammonia source (piece of shrimp) to make sure a cycle starts if it needs to and monitor levels.

QUOTE]

Why in the world would you do something like that ?? Its already live rock, already been cycled, already been up and running in a tank. Throwing some shrimp in the tank would do a whole lot of nothing. Why would you try to create die off on rock thats already live? that my be the silliest thing I have heard so far.

[Palting]

Yup, I don't think the 55 will cycle when you transfer the live rock. Are you going to add livestock as well? The reason I ask is that you'll probably have to give some nutrition to the bacteria in those rocks if the tank will remain livestock free for a while. I had to put shrimp in for the liverock in my 150 for almost 8 weeks until I transferred the livestock. Seemed to work, as I had no cycle at all.

If you take out live rock from the 120, and leave the same bioload, then yes, you may see a small cycle as the remaining liverock has to ramp up to handle the loss of the processing from the removed liverock. I suggest taking the liverock slowly, one large piece or several smaller pieces at a time. I did something simillar to my 110. But, instead of remaining live rock taking over the all processing, it was bioballs taking over as I took all the liverock out and converted the 110 to a QT.

Goes without saying, that whatever you do, you'll have to keep an eye on ammonia and nitrates. Just to reassure yourself .

[Tony78]

[QUOTE=RcToners;17703801]

Originally Posted by Tony78

I'd personally add some ammonia source (piece of shrimp) to make sure a cycle starts if it needs to and monitor levels.

QUOTE]

Why in the world would you do something like that ?? Its already live rock, already been cycled, already been up and running in a tank. Throwing some shrimp in the tank would do a whole lot of nothing. Why would you try to create die off on rock thats already live? that my be the silliest thing I have heard so far.

We don't know if there is enough bacteria on his lr to keep ammonia in check. Putting cured lr from another tank into his 55 and new water is like setting up a new tank. Will the cured lr cycle his "new" tank? Probably. Is the tank already cycled because of the cured lr? Maybe? How does he know? Adding the shrimp guarantees ammonia source. If it does nothing, then you know the bacteria is bountiful enough and the cycle is complete. If it kicks off an ammonia spike and he watches it cycle then he also knows for sure where the tank is at in relation to the cycle. Might it waste some time...yes. It does guarantee him a way to figure out where he's at with the cycle. Adding the shrimp won't harm the bacteria on the lr.

We all have differing opinions on how to do things related to this hobby. We come here, read, process thoughts and formulate answers. I understand you may think my logic is "the silliest thing you've heard so far", but after reading this post of yours and several others you really should check your attitude at the door. Comments like that are not needed here.

[rayn]

Thanks guys. I am probably not moving live stock over, unless that is the best way to keep the bioload down in the 120. Hadn't really planned that way. This tank is mainly going to be corals, maybe a few fish. The 120 is for the fishto swim with the larger tank and more room. I don't currently have any corals to place in the 55 so a cycle or time period to watch it is fine. I can even do as Palting suggested and do a piece or two a week to help all the LR adjust.

I just looked at my title again and I made a big OOPS. It should say 'will it cycle used LR' my bad.

Tony your right about the don't know where the ammonia in the cycle would be at, that is what worries me.

[RcToners]

People seem to just have so many misconceptions about LR and how it cycles and no matter what you try to show people and tell them they just keep on thinking one way.

If your live rock was up and running in a 120 gal system and you move it over to your 55 gal system you will not see a cycle, unless you manage to kill some of the rock in the transfer to the new system. If the rock was up and running in your 120 gal it has more then enough bacteria to deal with ammonia in the new 55 gal. There is 0 reason to try and kick start a cycle on already cycled rock the only thing you will accomplish there is killing some of the rock. If you are not sure your rock was already cycled or you set it up wrong or something then sure you can kick start a cycle, kill some of the rock and start over.

[Tony78]

Originally Posted by RcToners

People seem to just have so many misconceptions about LR and how it cycles and no matter what you try to show people and tell them they just keep on thinking one way.

I'm sure this is directed at me. If you would like to direct a comment towards me, please do so.

Originally Posted by RcToners

If your live rock was up and running in a 120 gal system and you move it over to your 55 gal system you will not see a cycle, unless you manage to kill some of the rock in the transfer to the new system. If the rock was up and running in your 120 gal it has more then enough bacteria to deal with ammonia in the new 55 gal. There is 0 reason to try and kick start a cycle on already cycled rock the only thing you will accomplish there is killing some of the rock. If you are not sure your rock was already cycled or you set it up wrong or something then sure you can kick start a cycle, kill some of the rock and start over.

Ammonia will serve as a food source for the nitrifying bacteria on his LR. If there is no other bioload in his 55, how is he going to kill the bacteria on the LR? Ok maybe a sponge, some pods, or unknown hitch hikers may suffer from the increased ammonia...but he's certainly not going to harm the bacteria that he's concerned with protecting.

If he does nothing, and adds livestock... the tank may kick off a cycle anyway because the ammonia production would increase.

If he attempts to kick off a cycle with an ammonia source on purpose like a shrimp and it does nothing... well then he wastes some time but he knows for certain the nitrifying bacteria are present in enough quantity to handle an ammonia source and it's probably safe to add livestock when he feels the time is right.

If he attempts to kick off cycle and it does kick one off... the bacteria weren't bountiful enough to handle increased ammonia. This same cycle would kick off if he added a fish. I'd rather find this out with a test shrimp than a test fish.

The OP had a tank leak in his 55. He moved the LR to his 120 temporarily and is now asking about moving it back. We don't know if the rock was fully cycled to begin with. There MAY have been some die off when the rock was taken out of the water and moved a few times. Again you say there is "0" reason to try and kick start a cycle. I've suggested the shrimp as a method of figuring out if the cycle is going to kick off anyway. As you mentioned earlier.. it MIGHT do nothing. But it MIGHT help him figure out if he's ready to add or move livestock safely.

[JMartin104]

Originally Posted by RcToners

People seem to just have so many misconceptions...

That's where diligent research comes in.

My nube observations:

I have a 110T with about 150lbs of cured LR from 3 established tanks. I also have LS that sat moist in a trash bag for about 3 weeks. I know I had some "die-off" from my sand and rocks.

I'm at week 4 and I've seen the diatom bloom, green algae bloom, misc. other "things" bloom. My algae growth has pretty much stopped - at about week 3. I think my cycle is complete but my tank is now stabilizing. I never saw any high readings. My Ammo never exceeded 1 and was that high only once. The highest Nitrate reading was < 10 - average so far is around 5.

I believe this was just a small cycle due to the established LR.


My daughter setup a 30g and we added established LR/LS AND a shrimp just to "boot" the cycle. 2 weeks later and no diatom bloom, algae growth or Ammo spike. I'm sure it's too soon to say, but it could be that the established LR/LS was enough.

These are just my nube observations so far.

[rayn]

Originally Posted by Tony78

I'm sure this is directed at me. If you would like to direct a comment towards me, please do so.



Ammonia will serve as a food source for the nitrifying bacteria on his LR. If there is no other bioload in his 55, how is he going to kill the bacteria on the LR? Ok maybe a sponge, some pods, or unknown hitch hikers may suffer from the increased ammonia...but he's certainly not going to harm the bacteria that he's concerned with protecting.

If he does nothing, and adds livestock... the tank may kick off a cycle anyway because the ammonia production would increase.

If he attempts to kick off a cycle with an ammonia source on purpose like a shrimp and it does nothing... well then he wastes some time but he knows for certain the nitrifying bacteria are present in enough quantity to handle an ammonia source and it's probably safe to add livestock when he feels the time is right.

If he attempts to kick off cycle and it does kick one off... the bacteria weren't bountiful enough to handle increased ammonia. This same cycle would kick off if he added a fish. I'd rather find this out with a test shrimp than a test fish.

The OP had a tank leak in his 55. He moved the LR to his 120 temporarily and is now asking about moving it back. We don't know if the rock was fully cycled to begin with. There MAY have been some die off when the rock was taken out of the water and moved a few times. Again you say there is "0" reason to try and kick start a cycle. I've suggested the shrimp as a method of figuring out if the cycle is going to kick off anyway. As you mentioned earlier.. it MIGHT do nothing. But it MIGHT help him figure out if he's ready to add or move livestock safely.

Better safe then sorry when it comes to fish and the expense of it.

The LR was in the 55 since Janurary. Then moved to the 120 about a month ago. Both tanks went through their respective cycles and were inhabited by fish, coral, and nems. I am doing a 20 gal water change on the 120 tonight, I can use that to fill the 55 and then add new ro/di. Then I would have to get salinity up to 1.026 and then move LR. Minimal sand if any and it would be new. So to answer that, the LR is cycled and some of it largely covered in coraline.

If I place a shrimp in the 55, what will happenif it is truly ready for fish and "cycled"? In a new cycle the shrimp starts to rot or get eaten away. Would this still happen if the bacteria needed are present?

The only way there would be die off, that I can see, is if it happens within seconds to minutes. The water was siphoned into buckets, LR placed, then LR moved into the 120. All within a 5 minute period. This tank leak was discovered about a half hour before I had to be at work, so the dismantle was frenzied and hurried.

[Tony78]

Originally Posted by rayn

If I place a shrimp in the 55, what will happenif it is truly ready for fish and "cycled"? In a new cycle the shrimp starts to rot or get eaten away. Would this still happen if the bacteria needed are present?

The shrimp will still decompose and give off ammonia no matter what. However the bacteria to break down the ammonia into nitrites and then into nitrates would already be established. You would see your levels stay in check as the system breaks down the ammonia from the shrimp. So your levels SHOULD remain at 0 or very near 0 during the process.

The same would be true if you had an established tank with bioload. The bioload produces ammonia, but the bacteria breaks it down into nitrites and nitrates. Nitrates are removed by water changes and the such. Your levels stay in check near 0 during the process.

You're just substituting a dead shrimp for a live bioload as a test ammonia source in this case.

[Mavrk]

How many pounds of LR are we talking about? Your 120 is what I am worried about. It would be better to move the rock slowly if you can.

[Dustin1300]

I'd also move over as much of the water from the 120 over? If you do 2-3 water changes in the 120 you should have enough water to fill 55 with 'good' water with beneficial bacteria....

[rayn]

Originally Posted by Tony78

The shrimp will still decompose and give off ammonia no matter what. However the bacteria to break down the ammonia into nitrites and then into nitrates would already be established. You would see your levels stay in check as the system breaks down the ammonia from the shrimp. So your levels SHOULD remain at 0 or very near 0 during the process.

The same would be true if you had an established tank with bioload. The bioload produces ammonia, but the bacteria breaks it down into nitrites and nitrates. Nitrates are removed by water changes and the such. Your levels stay in check near 0 during the process.

You're just substituting a dead shrimp for a live bioload as a test ammonia source in this case.

That is what I thought, just double checking.

Originally Posted by Mavrk

How many pounds of LR are we talking about? Your 120 is what I am worried about. It would be better to move the rock slowly if you can.

The 55 had ~70 lbs of rock. The 120 had ~150 lbs of rock. So total in the 120 right now is ~220 lbs of rock. Not all is in the tank, some is in the sump just to keep it in water and the bacteria alive.

Originally Posted by Dustin1300

I'd also move over as much of the water from the 120 over? If you do 2-3 water changes in the 120 you should have enough water to fill 55 with 'good' water with beneficial bacteria....

That is what I figured. I don't know how much bacteria is in the water, but there has to be some and it would hopefully help.

[reefermad619]

There is no such thing a cycled water. There is clean water and water that is less clean. It may have bacteria, but it's not called "live water." DO use some water from the 120. Not becasue it's live water, but becasue the water parameter are already ideal. Plus what ever water you replace in the 120 makes your next water change less of a chore on that tank. I've done what your talking about many times. This is what I do. Take out the water and rock from the existing tank. Place rock and water in new tank. Top off both tanks with water. Now you're good to go as long as temp and salinity are good. There will be a spike in amonia in the 120 if you have added more of bioload since adding more rock. If the bioload is the same, you'll be fine. I take it the 55 will be bare bottom since there has been no talk of adding sand?

[rayn]

I know it isn't cycled water, but clean with hopefully something usefull there. As for sand in the 55, I'm not sure yet. Maybe BB, but I may just put a small layer in there to cover the glass. Not sure if I want to stare at the stand bottom all the time. Besides, that gives me more glass to keep clean too.

[reefermad619]

I co-sign that! I love the simplicity of a bare bottom but it's a pain to keep clean. I keep a shallow enough layer of sand to cover the bottom, but not enough to to be considers deep enough to hold benificial bacteria.

[rayn]

Exactly what I was thinking.